1.22 Starting Bizantium found on YT

[FrogCrusher]

YouTube found for me this video :

Basically, the guy take Negroponte as capital from a first war with Venice and then declared and trapped 30k Ottos on his new capital and just take time to siege and occupy its territory.
What do you think ?
Mayby I should hide myself because it's very common (xD), but the most things I found on these forums are rather "ally with Hungary and Serbia", "use 5/5/5 Albania's general".

 

[Dominion]

I don't even use Albania. Allied Hungary and won the first war.

 

[Kapi96]

hmm, having a sieged capital the whole time you're sieging down the Ottomans must be absolutely terrible for war exhaustion!

 

[FrogCrusher]

hmm, having a sieged capital the whole time you're sieging down the Ottomans must be absolutely terrible for war exhaustion!

Indeed, he finished the war at 20.
What I don't get is how much it is mandatory to move the capital in order to attract Ottos.

 

[Dominion]

hmm, having a sieged capital the whole time you're sieging down the Ottomans must be absolutely terrible for war exhaustion!

Not like it really matters. Byz is pretty much a buffed version of the Ottoman Empire after you've managed to figure out how to win the first war.
That's why so many people like playing it.

And the effects of WE during your war are negligable. In his example he had an empty OE to siege down so neither siege time nor recruitment time nor unrest mattered.
You also get trade power from occupied provinces, so using a merchant suffices to keep your income stable.

It's a gimmicky way and there are many options to choose from. Whatever floats your boat I'd say. But it's not like the Negroponte trick is new.

And moving the capital is mandatory if you want to have a guarantee. AI pathing/warfare doesn't care much about unfortified provinces.

Having a single fort on the other hand (lvl1, capital) works like a honeypot.

 

[puddingkip]

You can just focus mil, build heavies, wait for him to fight AQQ and loan up a bit to kill kill him solo you don't need allies

 

[brainiac7]

You can just focus mil, build heavies, wait for him to fight AQQ and loan up a bit to kill kill him solo you don't need allies

I don't see how this is going to help you since as soon as you declare war he is going to make a b-line back to turn you into jelly. There is no way you can siege his capital down before he gets back and you cant hold Biga. You can let him cross back over and keep his armies in Greece but you can't take his capital that way nor get enough warscore without it to give you a decisive victory.

Honestly one of your best bets is to hope he ends up in a war with Venice and that he does something dumb like siege Corfu with his entire army, declare and blockade his troops on Corfu. Genoa with Scio works too but since there is no fort there and you need to take the fort on Aydin to keep him pinned up there thats hard to actually accomplish.

I think your better off going for defensive allies like Hungary, Poland and wait for favors. If there is an opportunity like the Venice example I will take it. I also dont think you even need the heavies. If you build 10 or so Galley's your navy will be roughly on par with Ottomans and if you position yourself right due to the AIs crappy fleet management you can wipe out half his navy in several small engagements that he will never recover from.

 

[Dominion]

You can just focus mil, build heavies, wait for him to fight AQQ and loan up a bit to kill kill him solo you don't need allies

Have you done the math or any testing on that? I'm genuinely curious.

Since Galleys get their bonus and use less CW than heavies I've always wondered if a full CW of Heavies beats Galleys prior to tech9.

I don't see how this is going to help you since as soon as you declare war he is going to make a b-line back to turn you into jelly. There is no way you can siege his capital down before he gets back and you cant hold Biga. You can let him cross back over and keep his armies in Greece but you can't take his capital that way nor get enough warscore without it to give you a decisive victory.

Yes and no.

Sieges aren't being abandoned immediately. They reworked that one too, ik, but they still haven't perfected it.
And even if they abandon it immediately, beating them on grasslands Edirne twice suffices to take it down. Most of the time you'll only need to do it once if you have the timing down.

I put a lot of effort into understanding the AI, but not players.
Someday someone's gonna explain to me how they can't beat Ottos if they haven't even taken back their first core yet.

It's a measly 21k units and you can syphon their trade income, deny them tax income and prevent them from switching into last resort mode by taking out all unfortified provinces on their western half. One transport suffices.

Loan up, win one battle, get your sieges down and fight merc vs manpower.
Hint: Mercs always win.

The AI got improved a ton and I won't criticize them without complimening them for what they've done so far, but it's still an AI. Just... win

 

[brainiac7]

Have you done the math or any testing on that? I'm genuinely curious.

Since Galleys get their bonus and use less CW than heavies I've always wondered if a full CW of Heavies beats Galleys prior to tech9.

Sieges aren't being abandoned immediately. They reworked that one too, ik, but they still haven't perfected it.
And even if they do, beating them on grasslands Edirne twice suffices to take it down.

I put a lot of effort into understanding the AI, but not players.
Someday someone's gonna explain to me how they can't beat Ottos if they haven't even taken back their first core yet.

It's a measly 21k units and you can syphon their trade income, deny them tax income and prevent them from switching into last resort mode by taking out all unfortified provinces on their western half. One transport suffices.

Loan up, win one battle, get your sieges down and fight merc vs manpower.
Hint: Mercs always win.

The AI got improved a ton and I won't criticize them without complimenting them for what they've done so far, but it's still an AI. Just... win

The AI is better, but in regards to fleets, I think its best to have all your units in one group to start, hunt down fleets and destroy his will to fight and then break up to blockade. If you can keep him pinned up on one side you can make him hurt alot just blockading the Turkish side even after you have pushed his capital back into Turkey. So perhaps I am wrong to say its bad AI entirely. He may simply have his fleet divided up to do trade protection or blockading another nation in war. The thing is you can do it with inferior numbers with the right plan and the right moment.

The AI is bad I think in regards to unit composition. To many 8-10k stacks (I'm looking at you Poland) rolling around getting methodically crushed by Ottomans 30k doomstack. Thing is I rarely see the Ottomans doing the same but fight in a war against them with even Poland/Hungary/Austria together and the map is flooded with little 10k army stacks being squished.

You can probably take some of your cores back using the trap them in Greece and siege down Turkey. But I dont think the game will let you take Erdine without actually conquering it. You can take your other cores but you need to siege the capital down to take it. If I am wrong then my bad. Though if you could take it the war would be worth if even if that was the only province you could take.

I dont see how you could take enough loans and hire enough mercs to beat the Ottomans in a straight up fight. He starts with atleast 30k troops even if you beat him once he has way more manpower and will merc up himself if that is drained. They're armies are just way better than yours and without incredible luck (or skill maybe I dont have ) I dont see how you can win a slugfest. I will agree take as many loans as you need to win the war. I have seen some video strats that say you can go for a white peace early and then go for the decisive war later but you can usually ally someone strong within a couple years which is enough to deter him from attacking you immediately in most cases. I think the best strat is to go for the kill shot in the first war even if you have to wait a while.

I haven't done the math on heavies. I just think its alot of expense and time to build them not to mention the maintenance when you could build and maintain 20 galleys or more for the same money and time. I think Byzantium starts out with like 5 lights and 10 or 12 galleys? Ottomans are around 10/20 at start. The AI tends to build alot of transports early from my experience and expecting them to build about 5 more of each themselves adding 10-15 galleys while picking good early surprise sea battles when your war starts you can even the odds or get outright navel superiority within a month or two of the start of the war. If they are in a war with Venice or Mamluks they have probably been weakened a little already.

I dont know about the siege thing. I know they will not immediately break off sieges but in my experience if you start besieging his capital he will come back. If your lucky he will bring only 1 stack. But I have never been that lucky.

 

[Dominion]

The AI is better, but in regards to fleets, I think its best to have all your units in one group to start, hunt down fleets and destroy his will to fight and then break up to blockade. If you can keep him pinned up on one side you can make him hurt alot just blockading the Turkish side even after you have pushed his capital back into Turkey.

I know this sentence is most commonly used as an insult, but I stopped reading after that part for a good reason.

"After you pushed his capital" means you won the first war.
The game is already over after you won the first war with Byz.

You are now playing as a buffed Ottoman Empire. No need for any tactics anymore. 2k dev in the blink of an eye, no coalitions, free events, etc etc etc

There's really no need to map anything once you've managed to win your cores back.

Thinking about it is like writing a guide for OE.

 

[brainiac7]

I know this sentence is most commonly used as an insult, but I stopped reading after that part for a good reason.

"After you pushed his capital" means you won the first war.
The game is already over after you won the first war with Byz.

Well if your going to stop reading after the first sentence maybe you should actually read and then quote the sentence correctly. I said "even after" which means you can use it as a tactic to help you in wars after you have taken the cores but blockading them also helps in the first war. If you win the first war yes you have completed the hard part of the campaign. They are still plenty tough but I guess not for master players like you.

I know this sentence is commonly used as an insult, but sorry for thinking I could have an adult conversation with you.

 

[Dominion]

No, you misunderstand, I really wasn't trying to insult you.

It's just that anything beyond "how do I win the first war" is completely pointless.

Either you're a new player and pick the Ottoman Empire or you've got enough experience to win the first war with Byz and are now playing the Ottoman empire with a certain level of experience and additional buffs.

 

[wthree]

Either you're a new player and pick the Ottoman Empire or you've got enough experience to win the first war with Byz and are now playing the Ottoman empire with a certain level of experience and additional buffs.

Im curious, but what are these additional buffs?

As far as I can tell, the BYZ is basically the ottomans but with less manpower, less income, more expensive technology, worse religious unity, worse troops, and a worse government.

Ive never much played Byzantium, so what am I missing?

 

[Dominion]

They have more of everything except direct combat modifiers due to an unreal amount of free MP events alongside some other stuff. Just looking at their NIs won't tell you half the story.
Sitting at 100 AT for no reason at all for half the game is fun.

Playing Byz into Mare Nostrum is almost as difficult as France into Mare Nostrum.
Maybe equally difficult. You have to overcome the opening, but at least the Ottoman Empire is out of the game.

 

[Zephyrum]

Stacking up tolerance and core cost still seems far superior than spam-converting at high ToTF when it comes to blobbing; besides, Sunni with all that Orthodox next to you is really powerful (super cheap tech). All that together and your MP usage should save you enough to make BYZ's stream of free MPs not as ridiculous. The direct combat boosts are also pretty damn massive and the culture group is obnoxiously big.

Of course, BYZ gets a LOT of free tradition on the early/mid game, but frankly that's not enough to beat the ottomans' much more insane army boosts. The free starting cores just about everywhere around combined with a 5/5/6 ruler should bank you a tech lead to break any opponent early on easily. And that's assuming there ever IS an opponent, given the typical final boss is, well, you.

I can't see BYZ as a "buffed Ottomans", for they lose generally everywhere:

-Weaker armies
-Smaller navy
-Far better starting position, including a good 300 dev difference in total core development and a 5/5/6
-Government that guarantees good to amazing rulers consistently, combined with the sunni/dhimmi tech cost and CCR, just stomps out the MP events

The one thing Byzantium arguably does better is silence rebels (with Religious) due to super cheap -40% stabcost, 9+ ToTF and loads of high-strength missionaries, but the turks aren't too far behind with Humanist(-Offensive)'s -10(/15) years of separatism, -2(/3) global unrest, no intolerance of heretics, and tolerance of heathens pretty much on par with ToTF.

Don't even get me started with the "siege forts like a maniac" age ability that assures no fort is going to lock you for too long in the first age.

 

[puddingkip]

I don't see how this is going to help you since as soon as you declare war he is going to make a b-line back to turn you into jelly. There is no way you can siege his capital down before he gets back and you cant hold Biga. You can let him cross back over and keep his armies in Greece but you can't take his capital that way nor get enough warscore without it to give you a decisive victory.

Honestly one of your best bets is to hope he ends up in a war with Venice and that he does something dumb like siege Corfu with his entire army, declare and blockade his troops on Corfu. Genoa with Scio works too but since there is no fort there and you need to take the fort on Aydin to keep him pinned up there thats hard to actually accomplish.

I think your better off going for defensive allies like Hungary, Poland and wait for favors. If there is an opportunity like the Venice example I will take it. I also dont think you even need the heavies. If you build 10 or so Galley's your navy will be roughly on par with Ottomans and if you position yourself right due to the AIs crappy fleet management you can wipe out half his navy in several small engagements that he will never recover from.

Have you done the math or any testing on that? I'm genuinely curious.

Since Galleys get their bonus and use less CW than heavies I've always wondered if a full CW of Heavies beats Galleys prior to tech9.


Yes and no.

Sieges aren't being abandoned immediately. They reworked that one too, ik, but they still haven't perfected it.
And even if they abandon it immediately, beating them on grasslands Edirne twice suffices to take it down. Most of the time you'll only need to do it once if you have the timing down.

I put a lot of effort into understanding the AI, but not players.
Someday someone's gonna explain to me how they can't beat Ottos if they haven't even taken back their first core yet.

It's a measly 21k units and you can syphon their trade income, deny them tax income and prevent them from switching into last resort mode by taking out all unfortified provinces on their western half. One transport suffices.

Loan up, win one battle, get your sieges down and fight merc vs manpower.
Hint: Mercs always win.

The AI got improved a ton and I won't criticize them without complimening them for what they've done so far, but it's still an AI. Just... win

If you dow him in 1447 you can have 4 heavies and 20 troops. If he is siegimg AQQ mountain fort you can beat him to the siege of Edirne as AQQ has a mountain fort and he won't have the siege ability thing yet. And yes heavies > galleys. He won't engage you with heavies, he will if you build gallies. I don't think you can win the combat but that doesn't matter as he doesn't fight you if you got heavies.

Also Otto AI can recover from anything, he can take 8000 ducats of debt in 1444 lol

 

[JoeRambo]

Anyone know what is font mod in that video? Looks really nice. thanks.

EDIT: heh, it was in video description -> Mod:Stellaris UI font(not affect the game play)