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Grand Historian

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Oh, come on. You can hardly breathe nowadays without Paradox doing something to Italy. Now Japan's been fixed (hopefully), the next priority should be either the rest of Asia or the Americas.

America is more or less acceptable as it is. I don't really see much need for it to get an update.

Ryukyu hasn't gotten an update in years. It needs more provinces more than any other region.

That would a): make Ryukyu's provinces even harder to click than before, and b): be a near-pointless add. Ryukyu was important for its strategic positioning in the east Asian trade, and not much else; it's not deserving of a new province. That's like saying that Naxos needs a new province simply because it hasn't been updated in a while.

Here's the map from the multi thread:

index.php


Looks like there's no Philippines update, unfortunately. Also, my eyes aren't good enough to identify changes without having the 1.19 map next to me. @Grand Historian?

@DàbiànLājīdàrén sums up most of the Steppe changes well - I can't see anything different in Japan from last time (actually scratch that, the Kakizaki clan of Hokkaido are in at Oshima - though oddly the Ainu haven't been given any new provinces). It doesn't look like Indonesia or India has any new provinces, but I'm not so sure about Indochina. No new provinces in Korea I can see, though, unfortunately. China's too thick for me to tell at a glance.

My money's on Groggy to win the inevitable Onin War, though. If Iwami got in, I imagine that's a second Gold Producing province for Japan.
 
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Grand Historian

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I cant really see a gameplay reason to start making Korean micro provinces... Look at them compared to Manchus, they are still like 2 times smaller on average...

Hamgyeong, Gangneung and Jeolla can all be divided without making micro-provinces. I think @Bella Gerant would know how to go about a Korean rework.
 

Koramei

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Oh cool, I like the addition of Oshima. Hopefully there'll be a way to keep it from making Japan eat the Ainu even quicker though.

I cant really see a gameplay reason to start making Korean micro provinces... Look at them compared to Manchus, they are still like 2 times smaller on average...

Well... yeah? One is heavily undeveloped Manchuria, the other is densely developed Korea. I'm no expert on the specifics of Manchurian population trends, but from a glance at wikipedia it says even in 1750, the entirety of Manchuria was ~ 1 million people. Silla Korea (which wasn't even the entire peninsula) had between 2 and 4 million inhabitants in 750, a thousand years earlier, and by EU4's period that was probably more than doubled. Korea's population state was extremely precarious from the mid-late EU4 period (and the figures are still controversial) but for most of history it's been one of the denser parts of Asia.

I don't think 1.19 Korea was crying out for new provinces relative to its neighbors, but with Japan the better part of twice as dense, and the Manchus buffed significantly, I think it could definitely stand to have a few more. Personally I'd redistribute the southern provinces (Gyeongsang, Jeolla, Gyeonggi) as they were the densest parts of the peninsula with the most farmland, whereas the north has always been less populated, but I guess maybe gameplay wise with the fort setup a case could be made for the north too.

Alternatively you could rejig them based on terrain- I've been meaning to write up for a while, but Korea's terrain could do with a significant rework- the peninsula is notoriously mountainous, to the point it's been instrumental Korea's survival throughout history. Changing up the provinces to accommodate that (the southeast for instance was almost entirely cut off from the rest of the peninsula by mountains) could be good.
 
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DanubianCossak

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Alternatively you could rejig them based on terrain- I've been meaning to write up for a while, but Korea's terrain could do with a significant rework- the peninsula is notoriously mountainous, to the point it's been instrumental Korea's survival throughout history. Changing up the provinces to accommodate that (the southeast for instance was almost entirely cut off from the rest of the peninsula by mountains) could be good.

If you do write that up please tag me.
 

Mingmung

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Something not map-related:


Can you guys imagine the unit-packs that will accompany this DLC!? Chinese unit pack maybe (for some different tags like Ming, Northern China, Southern China, Dali etc.), as well as Manchu and Korean ones. Maybe even one for several Daimyos. * . *

A man can dream.

But well, some of it will no doubt come true because unit packs are most often then not based on its patch-theme.
 
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Something not map-related:


Can you guys imagine the unit-packs that will accompany this DLC!? Chinese unit pack maybe (for some different tags like Ming, Northern China, Southern China, Dali etc.), as well as Manchu and Korean ones. Maybe even one for several Daimyos. * . *

A man can dream.

But well, some of it will no doubt come true because unit packs are most often then not based on its patch-theme.
Oh, I've thought about it. :D
We know for sure we are getting Asian ships. I'm hoping the vanilla Chinese units get a rework, with the pack redoing the Jurchens, Japanese uniques for the Daimyo and possibly Ming/Qing/Chinese Minors
 
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Mingmung

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Oh, I've thought about it. :D
We know for sure we are getting Asian ships. I'm hoping the vanilla Chinese units get a rework, with the pack redoing the Jurchens, Japanese uniques for the Daimyo and possibly Ming/Qing/Chinese Minors
Most definetely. They've been churning out more unit packs than ever before.

South-East Asian portraits would also be a very nice addition. One that's almost undoubtedly there.

Maybe some general rework of the vanilla units even a la 1.19.

The game has really evolved in comparion to 2012. Just fantastic.
 
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Most definetely. They've been churning out more unit packs than ever before.

South-East Asian portraits would also be a very nice addition. One that's almost undoubtedly there.

Maybe some general rework of the vanilla units even a la 1.19.

The game has really evolved in comparion to 2012. Just fantastic.
I didn't even think about advisor portraits. I've been using the Asian portraits mod, and they fit so nicely I don't even care if PDX does an official one
 
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Mingmung

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Sooooo,

Let's say that there are 12 unit line-ups, what would be the most obvious ones?

My take on it:
-Ming
-Korea
-Manchu (for all the three tribes and Qing too, one line because all of the tribes can form Manchu)
-Mongol (shared between several tribes, maybe several different lines for different factions)

Then we still have around 8 left, so maybe 4 Chinese minors and 4 daimyos based on area?
 

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That would a): make Ryukyu's provinces even harder to click than before, and b): be a near-pointless add. Ryukyu was important for its strategic positioning in the east Asian trade, and not much else; it's not deserving of a new province. That's like saying that Naxos needs a new province simply because it hasn't been updated in a while.
He's being ironic. ;)
 
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Grand Historian

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Sooooo,

Let's say that there are 12 unit line-ups, what would be the most obvious ones?

My take on it:
-Ming
-Korea
-Manchu (for all the three tribes and Qing too, one line because all of the tribes can form Manchu)
-Mongol (shared between several tribes, maybe several different lines for different factions)

Then we still have around 8 left, so maybe 4 Chinese minors and 4 daimyos based on area?

Well, the Daimyo are really tricky, and Japan already has it's own unique sprites - I'd personally just be more comfortable with them getting reworked like how the generic Western units were. But if Japan were to get a sprite pack, I'd say the Shimazu, Ouchi, Hosokawa, Takeda, Uesugi and Date would be the most likely picks just from the 1444 Daimyo - Otomo and Amago being decent possibilities.
 

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Sooooo,

Let's say that there are 12 unit line-ups, what would be the most obvious ones?

My take on it:
-Ming
-Korea
-Manchu (for all the three tribes and Qing too, one line because all of the tribes can form Manchu)
-Mongol (shared between several tribes, maybe several different lines for different factions)

Then we still have around 8 left, so maybe 4 Chinese minors and 4 daimyos based on area?
Probably replace Mongol with Japan for its own but otherwise I would probably agree
 

Koramei

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I'd love to see something like the German Princes pack done for a lot of the Daimyos- that is, just tier 1 and 2 units. They got in 12 princes so they could feasibly flesh out most of Japan the same way.

In fact, maybe someone more versed in the history of Japanese armor would disagree, but maybe even just tier 1s for all the daimyo, switching the spears to guns but keeping the armor the same otherwise? How much did it change throughout the Sengoku era? I'd love to see every daimyo get a unique model.

Also unique cavalry models, at least for Ming and Qing. Chinese cavalry looked pretty distinct from the infantry.

If you do write that up please tag me.

Might be a while, it's been on my mind for a while but going in depth into Korean geography isn't something I'm especially interested in. ;) But sure.
 
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Republic of Mercury

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I realized that a little too late.

This is, after all, a thread devoted to talking about new provinces in Asia.
Mm. Rule one of internet irony: never go less than 110%. For example:

"Ryukyu needs more provinces, more development, more DHE's, a unique government, a unique religion, and a 'restore the theme system'-like decision that gives permanent claims on the Japan region and cores on the China region, available once you've united the entire Ryukyu area."
 
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Philadelphus

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Hopefully not being presumptuous to assume you're talking about mine, but thanks! I wasn't told to keep it secret so I think it's safe to mention, they're getting integrated in 1.20. I just finished up the female portraits for it too.
Oh, was it you that made those portraits? I've been using them for a few months now—great work, glad to hear they're getting integrated!
 
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Bella Gerant

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Hamgyeong, Gangneung and Jeolla can all be divided without making micro-provinces. I think @Bella Gerant would know how to go about a Korean rework.
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Was just trying to figure how to go about it without just copying M&T. Which makes this a shameless plug for M&T because they've done a rather lovely job at depicting Korea (they split up the 8 provinces into 17, cutting each in half and making Jejudo its own province) in terms of geography (actually having mountains). Puts it up to 311 development, over 3 times the current Korean development, which makes sense since Korea had a population and land area greater than England proper in 1400 (puts it actually in kingdom rank).

Oh cool, I like the addition of Oshima. Hopefully there'll be a way to keep it from making Japan eat the Ainu even quicker though.



Well... yeah? One is heavily undeveloped Manchuria, the other is densely developed Korea. I'm no expert on the specifics of Manchurian population trends, but from a glance at wikipedia it says even in 1750, the entirety of Manchuria was ~ 1 million people. Silla Korea (which wasn't even the entire peninsula) had between 2 and 4 million inhabitants in 750, a thousand years earlier, and by EU4's period that was probably more than doubled. Korea's population state was extremely precarious from the mid-late EU4 period (and the figures are still controversial) but for most of history it's been one of the denser parts of Asia.

That's a fair point, though I'm pretty sure that the devs have stated that population != development and that the latter is more balance than historical, seeing as Germany alone has more development than all of China despite China being vastly more populated throughout history. Add the rest of Western Europe (France, Italy, Spain, the British Isles) etc. into the equation and a population maybe a third of Ming China's (western Europe had around 57 million people in 1500 while the Ming had perhaps 155 million at the same time) has 3x the development (around 3600 development compared to 1109) at the start of the game. Of course, if the Ming Empire had 9000 development, it'd be slightly overpowered.

Korea's near 100 development makes it easy to vassalize (just takes two wars) which is what the Manchu did in the 1600s (two invasions, vassalization by war). I imagine that's what led the devs to assign Korea its development value.

I don't think 1.19 Korea was crying out for new provinces relative to its neighbors, but with Japan the better part of twice as dense, and the Manchus buffed significantly, I think it could definitely stand to have a few more. Personally I'd redistribute the southern provinces (Gyeongsang, Jeolla, Gyeonggi) as they were the densest parts of the peninsula with the most farmland, whereas the north has always been less populated, but I guess maybe gameplay wise with the fort setup a case could be made for the north too.

Alternatively you could rejig them based on terrain- I've been meaning to write up for a while, but Korea's terrain could do with a significant rework- the peninsula is notoriously mountainous, to the point it's been instrumental Korea's survival throughout history. Changing up the provinces to accommodate that (the southeast for instance was almost entirely cut off from the rest of the peninsula by mountains) could be good.

Terrain's definitely a sticking point here. 70% of Korea is mountainous and while most of those mountains are rather small (there's a lot them, jeez), the terrain made it difficult to invade and subdue. However, of Korea's 14 provinces in-game, 9 are grasslands, 4 are woods, and Jejudo is coastline. None of those provinces types provide any sort of fort defense and only 4 of them provide a defensive bonus in battle.

Just for reference, here's the topography of the Korean peninsula:
Korean_Peninsula_topographic_map.png

West and North should have some mountain or, at the very least, hill provinces. The geography mapmode depicts a ridge in the northern "grassland," for chrissake!

And a map of where the major cities in the South are relative to
south-korea-map.gif

Strangely enough, all of the provinces bordering Korea, with the exception of Furdan, are designated as mountain provinces. Two of the Korean border provinces are marked as woods and one is grassland.

Anyways, the traditional 8 provinces follow geography to begin with (Korea's in-game 14 provinces are just involve splitting 5 of the provinces in two and isolating Jejudo). M&T just splits them up in a different way (Pyongan split east-west instead of in-game north-south). Any division of Korea's likely to follow the 8 in some fashion.

But yeah, a bit more development wouldn't hurt, more provinces would be nice, and a geography fix would be amazing.

Also, splitting up the sea tiles (Christ, this is just a M&T plug).
 
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Koramei

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That's a fair point, though I'm pretty sure that the devs have stated that population != development

For sure, but by pretty much whatever measure you wanna give it, Korea was dramatically more developed than Manchuria, even during the Qing dynasty. At least until Han settlers started arriving in large numbers, but I think that was more during the Vicky period.

Korea's near 100 development makes it easy to vassalize (just takes two wars) which is what the Manchu did in the 1600s (two invasions, vassalization by war). I imagine that's what led the devs to assign Korea its development value.

I hadn't even thought about that, you might be right. Still, I think Qing's gonna require enough special treatment to form that stuff like this (and the last quote) shouldn't much factor into it, Manchu need something exceptional. Or China needs some in depth mechanics for new dynasty formation.

Also really hoping we'll get a unique tributary system, the in-game vassalization doesn't represent it at all. Maybe we'll see when the China points get revealed.

Also, splitting up the sea tiles.

Yes, please.
 
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Bella Gerant

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For sure, but by pretty much whatever measure you wanna give it, Korea was dramatically more developed than Manchuria, even during the Qing dynasty. At least until Han settlers started arriving in large numbers, but I think that was more during the Vicky period.
I agree with this but, unless Paradox adds an event chain or more decisions to allow the Manchu to actually conquer China (since the Qing is a thing), development makes sense. Otherwise Korea would just bulldoze into Manchuria every game and make Manchu unplayable. Tributary system would fix this but there needs to be a bandaid in place until then.
Still, I think Qing's gonna require enough special treatment to form that stuff like this (and the last quote) shouldn't much factor into it, Manchu need something exceptional. Or China needs some in depth mechanics for new dynasty formation.

Also really hoping we'll get a unique tributary system, the in-game vassalization doesn't represent it at all. Maybe we'll see when the China points get revealed.
Yup on this too. Qing and Mughals need Dutch Revolt level treatment to form reliably (which is a bit much, I'd say). Development system's too rigid to reflect demographics, unfortunately.

Also, Ming without the Zhu is hilarious.
 
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