1.2 15th of September update

[King]

Great - but will factories still produce to max capacity and throw away the unsold goods?

If they make money doing it then yes. To try and force outer people out of the market.

 

[RELee]

It is the Three Moves Ahead one. Due to record tonight and should be out tomorrow. However, anything could go wrong so that's why everything is conditional.

Oh cool! I listen to those jackalopes all the time. They're idiots, but they're nice idiots. We would get along fine. Well, I would get along with the one who is always offering coffee.

 

[Kanaric]

GJ King and staff, I think this will likely make SoI less painful to deal with.

 

[Projekt 919]

SOI Improvements in Outliner Are Great, will make life much easier, However I have To ask one thing, why are all the hawaian (i cant spell) leaders the same picture and its one of Lakota Chief Sitting Bull if im not mistaken?

Also is it impossible on the Engine to make an option to Resist SOI or is it just not going to be done?

 

[gamer42_au]

will factories still produce to max capacity and throw away the unsold goods?

If they make money doing it then yes. To try and force outer people out of the market.

Nice try at justifying crazy behaviour by factory managers
IRL what firms do to claim higher market share (if they are more efficient) is sell at a lower price, not throw away unsold production. This forces down the market price and hence drives out less efficient producers until the market capacity (reducing due to dropouts) matches the volume of demand (increasing due to lower prices).
This brings me to my other pet peeve about economy in V2 1.1, which is that prices are set by reference to potential demand (what pops would like to buy if they could afford it) and not effective demand (what they actually can afford to buy). This leads to (for instance) high price for fertiliser, due to potential luxury good demand from numerous farmers. In turn this leads to overbuilding of fertiliser factories by the AI, so that there is persistently very low percentage of fertiliser produced that is actually sold, leading to many fertiliser factories losing money and a few barely breaking even, but demanding truly excessive amount of inputs (because so much more fertiliser is made than is sold).
So large potential demand -> high price -> high production -> high demand for input goods.
The net effect is that the input goods factories and RGOs make good money and the end factory is a loser (but often built by the AI).

You really should amend the price formula to reflect effective demand (e.g. use yesterday's actual purchases not todays potential demand), so that the AI won't build the wrong factories so often.
Of course if you do this (which you should), the inefficiencies of factory production process will become even more glaring (because not now covered by grossly overstated prices).

 

[King]

Nice try at justifying crazy behaviour by factory managers
IRL what firms do to claim higher market share (if they are more efficient) is sell at a lower price, not throw away unsold production. This forces down the market price and hence drives out less efficient producers until the market capacity (reducing due to dropouts) matches the volume of demand (increasing due to lower prices).
This brings me to my other pet peeve about economy in V2 1.1, which is that prices are set by reference to potential demand (what pops would like to buy if they could afford it) and not effective demand (what they actually can afford to buy). This leads to (for instance) high price for fertiliser, due to potential luxury good demand from numerous farmers. In turn this leads to overbuilding of fertiliser factories by the AI, so that there is persistently very low percentage of fertiliser produced that is actually sold, leading to many fertiliser factories losing money and a few barely breaking even, but demanding truly excessive amount of inputs (because so much more fertiliser is made than is sold).
So large potential demand -> high price -> high production -> high demand for input goods.
The net effect is that the input goods factories and RGOs make good money and the end factory is a loser (but often built by the AI).

You really should amend the price formula to reflect effective demand (e.g. use yesterday's actual purchases not todays potential demand), so that the AI won't build the wrong factories so often.
Of course if you do this (which you should), the inefficiencies of factory production process will become even more glaring (because not now covered by grossly overstated prices).

We've done some major work ont he facotry building AI to make it better.

 

[unmerged(226264)]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but could there possibly be a set of counters to represent armies like there was in vicky1 (like the ones in HoI)? I find that I am thoroughly enjoying myself right up until I am reminded that my armies are made up of 1000ft tall super giants wearing late 19th century military uniforms.

 

[safferli]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but could there possibly be a set of counters to represent armies like there was in vicky1 (like the ones in HoI)? I find that I am thoroughly enjoying myself right up until I am reminded that my armies are made up of 1000ft tall super giants wearing late 19th century military uniforms.

There are no counters. But for the next patch, if you zoom out enough, you can see the units as flags, which is kind of like counters. If you know EU3, then you'll know what I'm talking about.

Also, check the screenshot in the first post to get an idea of it.

 

[unmerged(226264)]

Neat. That does look cool.

 

[RickInVA]

Nice try at justifying crazy behaviour by factory managers
IRL what firms do to claim higher market share (if they are more efficient) is sell at a lower price, not throw away unsold production. This forces down the market price and hence drives out less efficient producers until the market capacity (reducing due to dropouts) matches the volume of demand (increasing due to lower prices).
This brings me to my other pet peeve about economy in V2 1.1, which is that prices are set by reference to potential demand (what pops would like to buy if they could afford it) and not effective demand (what they actually can afford to buy). This leads to (for instance) high price for fertiliser, due to potential luxury good demand from numerous farmers. In turn this leads to overbuilding of fertiliser factories by the AI, so that there is persistently very low percentage of fertiliser produced that is actually sold, leading to many fertiliser factories losing money and a few barely breaking even, but demanding truly excessive amount of inputs (because so much more fertiliser is made than is sold).
So large potential demand -> high price -> high production -> high demand for input goods.
The net effect is that the input goods factories and RGOs make good money and the end factory is a loser (but often built by the AI).

You really should amend the price formula to reflect effective demand (e.g. use yesterday's actual purchases not todays potential demand), so that the AI won't build the wrong factories so often.
Of course if you do this (which you should), the inefficiencies of factory production process will become even more glaring (because not now covered by grossly overstated prices).

Just one thing to add.

Its a GAME, not the Living Earth Simulator Project.

Thank You.

 

[The_Tom]

We've playing around with that value and we are also working promotion logic as well.

Does this mean that bureaucrats will no longer reach a point of singularity and consume the middle class?

 

[gamer42_au]

Just one thing to add.

Its a GAME, not the Living Earth Simulator Project.

Thank You.

Of course, but it is a game about a period in history where some countries industrialised and dominated the world and other didn't and became also-rans.
At the moment, as long as you are civilised (uncivs need the industrial score to get civilised), you can make very good money just from RGOs because the flaws in economic/factory process ensures there is strong demand for raw materials and poor profitability for end goods, esp luxury goods.
If you have good prestige, you can buy whatever you need on the world market.
So why bother building up an industrial sector at all?

IRL the reason was the enormously greater productivity and hence wealth created by factories. Not seeing that in V2 (it was there in V1), or at least only partially, weakens the feel of the game dramatically (for me).

It should be critical to industrialise in order to be competitive economically. For instance, China should be dirt poor, with a minimal government surplus, because the vast majority of the population should be living on the breadline, unable to afford more than very light taxes without falling into starvation and revolt. Instead in v1.1 (and apparently 1.2) the massive demand for raw materials makes her an economic powerhouse, even with minimal tech advance. This just shouldn't be what the nineteenth century was about.

 

[ElminsterAU]

It only shows your influence in the outliner, the others influences are shown in the tooltip. You'll see two flags though(both FRA and AUS)

It would be great if, a week or so before any of the other nations has enough influence to initiate an action that negatively affects you, their flag gets a red frame around it (or some other form of highlight).

 

[unmerged(25407)]

I suppose that depends on what you mean by Iran. A godly entity (ie a player in V2) would have looked at the situation and done everything they could to rid the country of foreigners as the foreigners were pushing bad policy on Iran for the benefit of the GP. But the ruling elites loved the incredible wealth and prestige this brought them, so no matter how bad it was for Iran, the advisers stayed. Or are you working under the assumption that the player is actually the shah and should have total control over such things?

Well Iran did not throw out those advisors because they had good relations with them then. Its a bit like US trying to SOI Venezula IRL and they have no choice but to say "okay".

This was touched on by someone else in a thread a couple of weeks ago in a slightly different manner.

They described a development of SoI in the later game where SoI was affected by a country's political position, and in particular a marked change to a more extreme government. IE communism.

I felt it could a potentially very interesting development.

Errr who touched on that? Is it planned to go into a patch?

If they make money doing it then yes. To try and force outer people out of the market.

Except that this actually lowers profits by the factory. And it doesnt seem to do what you are trying to make it do.

Let us say only 1000 wine is bought from the market at all times. Your factories produce 200 at full capacity, but due to things like SOI/prestige only 150 of the 200 is ever sold on the market, the other 850 is sold domestically in SOIs or by other higher ranking GPs.

The extra 50 liquor is produced, makes no money, and thrown away at a loss day after day. How does this force people out of the market? The other factories will continu to buy 850 liquor from their SOI domestic markets or from GPs with more prestige. They will never buy the extra 50 from you. The factories will continue to operate at a loss.

 

[gamer42_au]

If they make money doing it then yes. To try and force outer people out of the market.

Except that this actually lowers profits by the factory. And it doesnt seem to do what you are trying to make it do.

Let us say only 1000 wine is bought from the market at all times. Your factories produce 200 at full capacity, but due to things like SOI/prestige only 150 of the 200 is ever sold on the market, the other 850 is sold domestically in SOIs or by other higher ranking GPs.

The extra 50 liquor is produced, makes no money, and thrown away at a loss day after day. How does this force people out of the market? The other factories will continu to buy 850 liquor from their SOI domestic markets or from GPs with more prestige. They will never buy the extra 50 from you. The factories will continue to operate at a loss.

As I understand the system, all factories sell exactly the same proportion of their output (for simplicity:wacko. So if total world production is 1050 and only 1000 is purchased then all factories sell 1000/1050 of their production. There is no allocation of purchases to production by country or even SoI group (which incidentally destroys one of the main historic reason for tariffs, being ensuring local factories obtain better sales volume by dominating the local market). In game tariffs are purely a method of raising revenue from pops who buy imported goods rather than by class.
I think what King is trying to claim is that by producing (and throwing away) excess production the factory reduces the ratio of sales to production for all factories increasing the chance that less efficient factories will close. It is of course nonsense in RL terms. There are much better and more elegant solutions in game that would require no more (possibly less) computing - but would require signifcant coding and even more rebalancing work.

EDIT: This is wrong (see comment by King on page 9. Factories and RGOs sell to internal market (country plus SoI) first and only sell surplus into WM (the next day). So if you produce less than domestic demand factory will sell all its production, regardless of world supply levels. If you sell more than domestic demand, then share of world market sales will apply

 

[unmerged(25407)]

Wait....

So if 1000 goods are bought from the market, and there are 10 factoris producing 1050, the total number of purchased goods is actuallly 10x 1000? How does that work?

Dont factories always sell to the domestic market first(including SOI) and then exports it to the world market? This has always been what people were saying in previous threads on the topic.

 

[gamer42_au]

Wait....

So if 1000 goods are bought from the market, and there are 10 factoris producing 1050, the total number of purchased goods is actuallly 10x 1000? How does that work?

Dont factories always sell to the domestic market first(including SOI) and then exports it to the world market? This has always been what people were saying in previous threads on the topic.

If total purchases are 1000 and there are 10 factories each producing 1050 (so total 10500 made), then each factory will only sell 100 units (for total sales of 1000 = total purchases), with the other 950 per factory being thrown away.
This was in a dev diary, so may have changed since.

SoI and prestige only matter when a good is in short supply (volume available less than volume that would be purchased at market price).

EDIT:this is wrong - see comment by King on page 9. Factories and RGOs sell to domestic market first and only excess goes to world market. So you can sell 100% of your output if internal (country + SoI) demand is equal or more than internal output, not matter what world situation may be.

 

[gianni_rivera]

can you set some warning with rival nations is coming near to remove us from sphere?

Like,
the Dutch is in my sphere...
and I want the system to tell me whenever a nation reach 95 influence points
and so I will be notified and expel their advisor

as I dont want to expel them too early or never.
thanks

 

[gianni_rivera]

Wait....

So if 1000 goods are bought from the market, and there are 10 factoris producing 1050, the total number of purchased goods is actuallly 10x 1000? How does that work?

Dont factories always sell to the domestic market first(including SOI) and then exports it to the world market? This has always been what people were saying in previous threads on the topic.

do local factories always buy from local market?
Like.....the local demand (real.. not wants) is 500
and local production is 500 as well... while there is 100 more in international production...

do my country purchase the 500 from our factory.... so the 100 of supply is ignored?

or buy from proportionally from the local and international market?

 

[unmerged(25407)]

If total purchases are 1000 and there are 10 factories each producing 1050 (so total 10500 made), then each factory will only sell 100 units (for total sales of 1000 = total purchases), with the other 950 per factory being thrown away.
This was in a dev diary, so may have changed since.

SoI and prestige only matter when a good is in short supply (volume available less than volume that would be purchased at market price).

Wow so theres actually no point SOIng nations to get them into your domestic market after all, since availability far outpaces demand,.

What about different level factories? E.G. A level 5 factory produces 500 of a good, there are 5 other level 1 factories producing 100x5, and demand is only 800?