1.16: The Patch That Destroyed Russian Culture

[DmUa]

I agree with some of this but, But i disagree with the uralic tribes because they are not culturally tied to russian not even linguistically (karelian,Uralic,finnish,estonian,"permian" and whatnot)
what else, The splitting of ruthenian, I like zaporisian a bit but aside from that, i dont see the point in any other split

Then we have smolenskian, I love that idea, infact i came up with the same idea

- neither are sami and finns tied to north germans, but guess what?

 

[Itchel]

- neither are sami and finns tied to north germans, but guess what?

Oh yes, i do not like that either, But this is about russian.

 

[E. Cephalopoda]

I agree with some of this but, But i disagree with the uralic tribes because they are not culturally tied to russian not even linguistically (karelian,Uralic,finnish,estonian,"permian" and whatnot)
what else, The splitting of ruthenian, I like zaporisian a bit but aside from that, i dont see the point in any other split

Then we have smolenskian, I love that idea! infact i came up with the same idea

It's not totally correct, because, culture of many finnish and uralic tribes, lately subjugated by Novgorod and Muscovy had a strong slavic influence, because of their "raid and trade" policy.
Mythology of the some small nations, for example, has a similar to slavic gods and myths, or syncretic beliefs, as results of russian missionaries actions.
But, sure. it's not enough to bring them into the east slavic culture group.

 

[DanubianCossak]

How about no? "not interested" Novgorod colonized a giant territories of modern north-western Russia during Middle Ages, and enforced their law on his colonies.
And it's very strange, that there are no any colonizing ideas for Novgorod in EU.

Colonized? They established a trade post here and there every 200km or whatever. Half of 1444. territory is barely populated.

 

[Itchel]

Colonized? They established a trade post here and there every 200km or whatever. Half of 1444. territory is barely populated.

AKA a form of colonization.

 

[DanubianCossak]

AKA a form of colonization.

In my original argument i claimed that Novgorod was pretty much only interested in making money, to which he claimed that Novgorod's "colonization" was an example of non money making effort - which is simply wrong. Novgorod's colonization was precisely a trading effort. In more than half of this land mass they only collected furs (you know, trading) from natives and thats about the entirety of interaction https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Novgorod1400.png

 

[E. Cephalopoda]

Colonized? They established a trade post here and there every 200km or whatever. Half of 1444. territory is barely populated.

Emm, so, what it is, if not a colonizaton? They hadn't so much settlers for colonization in western style, but it's obvious, because it was in the Middle ages, when there are wasn't overpopulation, additionaly Novgorod population wasn't so big, as other russian territories. And, sure, they subjugated local finnish tribes, converting them into christianity. So. I think, it was a complete colonization, because, we could see it's results now, looking at cities with many centuries history, founded by novgorodian colonists among the frozen wastes.

 

[Kapitalisti]

- neither are sami and finns tied to north germans, but guess what?

Being conquered by Swedes for 600+ years counts for something. And in Vic2 they're both in the Scandinavian group.

 

[DmUa]

Emm, so, what it is, if not a colonizaton? They hadn't so much settlers for colonization in western style, but it's obvious, because it was in the Middle ages, when there are wasn't overpopulation, additionaly Novgorod population wasn't so big, as other russian territories. And, sure, they subjugated local finnish tribes, converting them into christianity. So. I think, it was a complete colonization, because, we could see it's results now, looking at cities with many centuries history, founded by novgorodian colonists among the frozen wastes.

- It was mostly a barren wasteland frozen in ice, any colonization of those lands would absolutely pointless, considering that they got everything they need from natives anyway. But considering that Danubian, is hellbent on defining whole Russian history as landgrab for the sake of landgrab while also having some serious problem with putin, your conversation is rather pointless and would not lead to anything.

Being conquered by Swedes for 600+ years counts for something. And in Vic2 they're both in the Scandinavian group.

- well, so are uralic group. And in vic they are in one group with with east slavs.

 

[DanubianCossak]

- It was mostly a barren wasteland frozen in ice, any colonization of those lands would absolutely pointless, considering that they got everything they need from natives anyway. But considering that Danubian, is hellbent on defining whole Russian history as landgrab for the sake of landgrab while also having some serious problem with putin, your conversation is rather pointless and would not lead to anything.

I dont think there is anything comparable to this in human history. There is no need to get offended by facts, and fact is, THIS is one massive land grab.

Spoiler

 

[Delta21]

Ugly as it may be, it's a necessary change gameplay-wise. Russian was my nr.1 favorite culture to conquer just because there's so much basetax with it at game's start. You could not lose that "accepted culture" for Russian even if you tried.

 

[E. Cephalopoda]

- It was mostly a barren wasteland frozen in ice, any colonization of those lands would absolutely pointless, considering that they got everything they need from natives anyway. But considering that Danubian, is hellbent on defining whole Russian history as landgrab for the sake of landgrab while also having some serious problem with putin, your conversation is rather pointless and would not lead to anything.

- well, so are uralic group. And in vic they are in one group with with east slavs.

I don't care about political shit. I am only want at least one colonization idea for a Novgorod.

 

[DmUa]

I dont think there is anything comparable to this in human history.

Spoiler

- yeah, and all it was done for the sake of "waaaaghhh for tsar and landgrab" i got it. Also we should ignore simple fact that most of those lands were uninhabited barren wastelands. http://thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTY5NTY2Mjk.NjY0NjUwOQ*MzIyNDA5ODM%28MTAwMzk4MTE~!CONTIGUOUS_US*OTI5MDMxMQ.MTg0NzAwMDk%28MTc1%29Mg~!RU*OTAyODU1Mg.MTk1MDM4OTM%29Mw

Spoiler

I don't care about political shit. I am only want at least one colonization idea for a Novgorod.

- well, you are not, im not, he is.

 

[Vaximillian]

See, kids, this:

Spoiler

is a landgrab.
On the other hand, this:

Spoiler

is civilisation.

Know the freaking difference!

/s

 

[DanubianCossak]

- yeah, and all it was done for the sake of "waaaaghhh for tsar and landgrab" i got it. Also we should ignore simple fact that most of those lands were uninhabited barren wastelands. http://thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTY5NTY2Mjk.NjY0NjUwOQ*MzIyNDA5ODM%28MTAwMzk4MTE~!CONTIGUOUS_US*OTI5MDMxMQ.MTg0NzAwMDk%28MTc1%29Mg~!RU*OTAyODU1Mg.MTk1MDM4OTM%29Mw

Spoiler

Whether these lands were uninhabited or not (most werent) is a whole different topic. Im glad we finally agree that a lot of land was grabbed to begin with, and thats something.

 

[DmUa]

Whether these lands were uninhabited or not (most werent) is a whole different topic. Im glad we finally agree that a lot of land was grabbed to begin with, and thats something.

- could you provide some sauce about oh-so-densely populated thundra and steps?

See, kids, this:

is a landgrab.
On the other hand, this:
is civilisation.

Know the freaking difference!

/s

 

[DanubianCossak]

- could you provide some sauce about oh-so-densely populated thundra and steps?

Could you show where i said anything about dense populations? Because i dont think i did. I did however claim that most areas were inhabited. There is a difference between the two. Kazan Khanate, Siberian Khanate, Nogai lands, Circassian lands, Crimean Khanate, Kazakh lands, Selkup lands, Kirghiz lands, whoever lived in Tuva (Buryats iirc), Yakuts etc. People lived in these places, they were not uninhabited. Oh yes, Manchuria too. Oh yes what about baltics, modern day Belarus, Poland etc.

 

[DmUa]

Could you show where i said anything about dense populations? Because i dont think i did. I did however claim that most areas were inhabited.

- tribe of 30 people is what i call uninhabited, yes.

Kazan Khanate, Siberian Khanate, Nogai lands, Circassian lands, Crimean Khanate, Kazakh lands, Selkup lands, Kirghiz lands, whoever lived in Tuva (Buryats iirc), Yakuts etc. People lived in these places, they were not uninhabited. Oh yes, Manchuria too. Oh yes what about baltics, modern day Belarus, Poland etc.

- again, majority of land from your picture were not Kazan Khanate, Siberian Khanate, Nogai lands, Circassian lands, Crimean Khanate, Kazakh lands, Selkup lands, Kirghiz lands, Manchuria toos, baltics, Poland etc, majority of those lands are tundra and naked steps. And in case of khanates id say that density of population of those political entities are highly disputable too. And seeing how you mentioned Belarus i reaaly reaaly concerned that you forgot to mention ancient Ukraine, giant_sloth would not be pleased.

 

[Itchel]

- tribe of 30 people is what i call uninhabited, yes.

Major under-exagguration, Per province there is around 500 - 1k people or more

 

[DanubianCossak]

- tribe of 30 people is what i call uninhabited, yes.
- again, majority of land from your picture were not Kazan Khanate, Siberian Khanate, Nogai lands, Circassian lands, Crimean Khanate, Kazakh lands, Selkup lands, Kirghiz lands, Manchuria toos, baltics, Poland etc, majority of those lands are tundra and naked steps. And in case of khanates id say that density of population of those political entities are highly disputable too. And seeing how you mentioned Belarus i reaaly reaaly concerned that you forgot to mention ancient Ukraine, giant_sloth would not be pleased.

I was trying to be polite and show some sensibility, but it did not slip my mind.