1.16: The Patch That Destroyed Russian Culture

[DmUa]

I have a hard time deciphering what you're trying to say.

- ouch it hurts.

I meant that these debates happen whenever something is done to/about the East, West and South Slavic culture groups in EUIV or CK2.

- so you missed said hungarian, finno-scandinavian, turkish and chinese discussions. And probably missed Belgium discussins too. Ok.

Now, I didn't say that other culture groups don't create "outrages", the Dutch vs. Flemish is a good example. There are just more threads like this.

- slavs more numerous than dutch and flemish, discovery of the century!

But have you heard many Germans complaining how their glorious united culture is fragmented? Even though they had a common language and largely common culture and were nominally part of the same state.

- well, except nothing of said is truth and german split is justified and... it was always like that in EU. Thats kind of a main reason of why no one discusses german split.

Not to mention that at least I usually get a very strong whiff of modern nationalism in these discussions.

- only in case of balkan threads, finno-scandinavian and belgium wars. Nationalism have nothing to do with current discussion.

Especially unity since Russia is divided into different states at game start.

- well, the whole point is that russian identity persisted even thou russian people were divided, russians never developed separate regional identities IRL and language ( even thou Pdx previously claimed that langauage nave nothing to do with culture, as example - bretons ) did not differed much to count it as separate.

 

[giant_sloth]

Well, I guess that Riazanian is somekind of transitional culture between south and north. IIRC, territory it has on the dev screenshot was once under the influence of Ruthenian Chernihiv principality. So it does have some sense

 

[uncldead]

That's why "Novgorodian" and "Muscovite" would actually make sense, since Novgorodians valued their furs, their trade, their republic, their artistry and science, whilst Muscovites valued their autocracy, orthodoxy, power and influence, etc. It's a battle of Republicans vs. Monarchists between two groups of Russians in a sense.

That's political differences, not cultural

Gameplay reasons, russia was to large a culture.

A lot of Russia Stronk. This culture change is a secret buff to the Russian region as any prospective conqueror is going to have problems getting all these cultures accepted. If German, French or Italian can be split this way, why shouldn't Russian?

this is about balance in a game, not an attack on Russia and it's people.

Oh guys, cmon. If we're talking about making Starcraft out of Europa Universalis, let's nerf France and Ottoman first, and next talk about gamplay-based cultural dividing. You can't justify totally unhistorical changes by simple 'gameplay'.

 

[DmUa]

Oh guys, cmon. If we're talking about making Starcraft out of Europa Universalis, let's nerf France and Ottoman first, and next talk about gamplay-based cultural dividing. You can't justify totally unhistorical changes by simple 'gameplay'.

- i think statements like Russia Stronk or attack on Russia and it's people are better showing who really have bias in this thread.

 

[Omegador]

That's political differences, not cultural




Oh guys, cmon. If we're talking about making Starcraft out of Europa Universalis, let's nerf France and Ottoman first, and next talk about gamplay-based cultural dividing. You can't justify totally unhistorical changes by simple 'gameplay'.

Actually, Novgorod and Moscow did have a lot of lifestyle differences. Novgorod had a significantly higher literacy rate for instance. There are also some architectural differences you might find looking at old buildings (Fortresses) around Novgorod vs. those in Moscow. Additionally, Novgorod had a navy. Moscow was land locked for a long long time, and had no idea how to build boats until Peter I kind of brought back the center of power to the Novgorod region (St. Petersburg is a lot closer to Novgorod, which before its annexation, was a lot more "Westernized" than the Moscow that plundered it.)

Yes, political, but if we're going to split "Russian" in half, you may as well do it among these lines rather than arbitrary "Ryazanian" borders. Novgorod was a powerhouse compared to Tver or Ryazan, for instance, rivaling Kiev and Vladimir in strength well before Moscow's rise to power.

 

[Woona]

As a person who lives in Russia and therefore studied Russian history and culture, I have never heard a thing about Ryazanian, Novgorodian or Muscovite cultures and their differences. I think that the problem is with poorly implemented cultural acceptance/conversion mechanics and devs should tweak them instead of culture map which is fine.
If anything, there could be Russian, Cossack and Pomor cultures.

I am very glad that Paradox removed Rybinsk reservoir though.

 

[DmUa]

Actually, Novgorod and Moscow did have a lot of lifestyle differences.

- "lifestyle differences" doesnt translate in to cultural or linguistic. Rural englishman would have drastically different lifestyle then londoner, does that advocate creation if Londoner culture?

Novgorod had a significantly higher literacy rate for instance.

- doesnt translates in to different culture.

There are also some architectural differences you might find looking at old buildings (Fortresses) around Novgorod vs. those in Moscow.

- doesnt translates in to different culture.

Additionally, Novgorod had a navy.

- doesnt translates in to different culture.

Moscow was land locked for a long long time, and had no idea how to build boats until Peter I kind of brought back the center of power to the Novgorod region (St. Petersburg is a lot closer to Novgorod, which before its annexation, was a lot more "Westernized" than the Moscow that plundered it.)

- and this is just completely wrong on many levels, including simple logic.

Insult removed

 

[Seelmeister]

Folks, please discuss the game without resorting to personal comments or insults.

Any posts containing comments about individual posters rather than the game will be removed

 

[Freudia]

Oh guys, cmon. If we're talking about making Starcraft out of Europa Universalis, let's nerf France and Ottoman first, and next talk about gamplay-based cultural dividing. You can't justify totally unhistorical changes by simple 'gameplay'.

No, you can, and people do. This is largely why Muscovy doesn't start the game at war with Kazan despite them historically being at war in November 1444, among many other things. History and realism must take a backseat to gameplay if the necessary changes make the game play better, and one would argue that breaking down the Russian culture group into several smaller cultures helps make Russia stronger (your group overall got larger) while making foreign invasion into the Russian region result in less net gain overall (as the Russian culture is no longer this giant culture that encompasses 60% of the Russian region, if not more).

If the problem is the name of the Ryazanian culture, then propose something better. The old culture setup for the Russian region was not better from a gameplay standpoint, so don't suggest that.

 

[Shatterfury]

No, you can, and people do. This is largely why Muscovy doesn't start the game at war with Kazan despite them historically being at war in November 1444, among many other things. History and realism must take a backseat to gameplay if the necessary changes make the game play better, and one would argue that breaking down the Russian culture group into several smaller cultures helps make Russia stronger (your group overall got larger) while making foreign invasion into the Russian region result in less net gain overall (as the Russian culture is no longer this giant culture that encompasses 60% of the Russian region, if not more).

If the problem is the name of the Ryazanian culture, then propose something better. The old culture setup for the Russian region was not better from a gameplay standpoint, so don't suggest that.

Ryazanian could very well be substituted for Smolenskian as other have suggested.

I agree, the split doesn`t weaken the East Slavic group at all but makes it weaker for invaders because they can`t accept a big culture and be done with it.

@DmUa
Subcultures not full blown cultures, that is how you need to see Muscovite, Novgorodian and Ryazanian not as full fledged different cultures like Italian compared to Spanish but like Lombards to Umbrians.

 

[DmUa]

Subcultures not full blown cultures, that is how you need to see Muscovite, Novgorodian and Ryazanian not as full fledged different cultures like Italian compared to Spanish but like Lombards to Umbrians.

- with reasoning like that we can produce tonnes of subcultures all over the map.

 

[Woifee]

Ya, and austrian is historical...

Gameplay goes before history, that's it. Just go with it.

 

[Shatterfury]

- with reasoning like that we can produce tonnes of subcultures all over the map.

We already have tons of subcultures all over the map, the Russians stood like a monolith and it wasn`t split between Muscovites and Novgorodians.

I don`t really see your problem, the Russian region is just receiving normal treatment.

Russians aren`t special snowflakes regarding culture and from a gameplay standpoint Russia would be just as powerful, now on the other hand it`s not an attractive target anymore because you actually need to take Humanist.

Ya, and austrian is historical...

Gameplay goes before history, that's it. Just go with it.

True, there should have been an Austro-Bavarian culture for both Austria and Bavaria.

 

[queermobile]

I can't help but wonder if the game would benefit from its own type of cultural melting pot events that CK2 has when cultural unions form, very late in the game. (Start seeing the various medieval German cultures become German, for example. Or muscovite and novgorodian eventually fuse into Russian.) Just an idle thought, though.


Also, as a fellow Russian, I couldn't help but roll my eyes when I saw Ryazanian.

 

[Mister X]

Understand that now culture groups are more like one culture and cultures are regional variants

They are still Russians

 

[DmUa]

We already have tons of subcultures all over the map, the Russians stood like a monolith and it wasn`t split between Muscovites and Novgorodians.

- except in case of russians that monoblock was justified. And even if we going to split it it should be done right without Ryazanians or Muscovites all over the place.

I don`t really see your problem, the Russian region is just receiving normal treatment.

- my problem is not a split up, to see this you can just check patch thread and look up for my posts. I started to comment on split only when people started to advocate it by using either very thin language arguments or just complete BS. Mine first post was actually about perpetual non-existance of Croatian kingdom.

Russians aren`t special snowflakes regarding culture

- not from historical POV thou.

 

[Lightabuse]

Even I registered for this sweet discussion, here we go. Yes, separation of Russian culture causes Homeric laughter from a historical perspective, but if you play Paradox games long enough you can understand that EU4 moving to controlled sandbox type of games, there is no about history at all. Realize that first. And second, they cant know about everything, The guys are well versed in Western history and project processes occurring in Western cultures in the far east, not realizing (and we can not blame them) that the development of cultures and subcultures completely ceases to work in Russia since 1200+ (I mean the territory, Russia those days did not exist), because when you killed more than 100 years by Tartars cultural diversification can not take place physically, takes place exclusively the union, just to survive.
This things very clear for us as russians, but this is game and rules for everybody is same.
Prerry sure that guys from India or China or Japan can find mistakes in ther own ingame region, but this game is just too big to do unique mechanics for everybody.

 

[DmUa]

Understand that now culture groups are more like one culture and cultures are regional variants

They are still Russians

- i personally dont argue with that at all, its just reasoning of some people that try to justify this split by spitting complete BS are annoying. Plus current rebalance resurfaces old question - what culture exactly represents in EU? In release everyone thought that it was language, than first rebalance hits, arabs, chinese and turks were split, bretons were united with french etc. Pdx than claimed that culture != language, now we see that it is not exact truth... What is definite is that Pdx needs some consistency in their design and statements.

 

[giant_sloth]

What is definite is that Pdx needs some consistency in their design and statements.

Why, both in CK2 and EU4 there are no russian culture at the earliest start date, souns like consistency to me

 

[DmUa]

Why, both in CK2 and EU4 there are no russian culture at the earliest start date, souns like consistency to me

- russian is already all over the place in 867, that doesnt sound as consistency to me at all.