1.16: The Patch That Destroyed Russian Culture

[Will Steel]

While we are on the topic of culture, I request the devs to rename the "Hindustani" culture group. There is no "Hindustani" culture in reality, they are only found in two Paradox game series now. It is a term by some modern linguists to denote the northern Hindi language dialect and it's local variation called Urdu that shuns Sanskrit-Hindi words in favour of Persian loanwords due to Islamism. Nothing more.

It should be renamed to "Hindavi" or "Hindi" culture group if nothing else.

Similar to the "Hindustan" region in north-central India, which should also be renamed. I mean, seriously? That region is called "Panchala" (पांचाल) since middle bronze age, and "Hindustan" is just a foreign Persian word used by Persians and Muslims to denote whole of India from Himalayas to the Maldives, just like the word "Yindu" of the Chinese, "Indo" of the Koreans and Japanese, and "India" of the Britons for the land whose actual name is "Bharatavarsha" (भारतवर्ष).

It is like renaming ancient Roman Italy to "Roma" and Shaanxi province of China to "China/Zhongguo".

 

[Y. D. Dandy]

Like other people have said: I'm fine with Novgorodian, but thing Ryzanian is terrible. (I also think Karelian and Finnish should both in the Baltic group, but that's a different matter.)

Novgorod's dialect was diverging towards a separate language before it was conquered by Muscovy, and even today the Pomor dialects of the White Sea are quite distinctive. It also had a distinct economy and political culture than Muscovy. I can't think of any justification for Ryazanian.

If the devs want to further break up Russian; I'd suggest adding Bryansk and Smolensk to Belarusian instead. The East Slavic languages were a dialect continuum before standardization, and some linguists around the turn of the 20th century included those areas as Belarusian dialects.

You could also add Chuvash culture in Alatyr, though that would probably belong in the Tatar group (as a Turkic-speaking successor to Volga Bulgaria) despite being Orthodox.

 

[DmUa]

I don't mean to offend anyone and apologies if someone still gets angry, but it's funny how most of these outrages about culture stuff always involve some flavor of Slavs...

- yeah, just like when nordics discussed whether or not should finns be in group with scandianvians. Or when hungarians discussed whether or not they should be in one group with slavs. Or when turks were discussing whether or not should turks be in one group with all altaics or with arabs. Or when it was discussed whether or not should chinese culture be split. Yep. All slavs.

 

[Omegador]

Like other people have said: I'm fine with Novgorodian, but thing Ryzanian is terrible. (I also think Karelian and Finnish should both in the Baltic group, but that's a different matter.)

Novgorod's dialect was diverging towards a separate language before it was conquered by Muscovy, and even today the Pomor dialects of the White Sea are quite distinctive. It also had a distinct economy and political culture than Muscovy. I can't think of any justification for Ryazanian.

If the devs want to further break up Russian; I'd suggest adding Bryansk and Smolensk to Belarusian instead. The East Slavic languages were a dialect continuum before standardization, and some linguists around the turn of the 20th century included those areas as Belarusian dialects.

You could also add Chuvash culture in Alatyr, though that would probably belong in the Tatar group (as a Turkic-speaking successor to Volga Bulgaria) despite being Orthodox.

Interestingly enough, Qasimi culture exists in the 1 province of Kasimov and nobody seems to care in particular. Therefore, this seems justified.

For a more interesting "Ruthenia", I think it desparately needs to be split in half to be "Kievan" and "Zaporozhian".

Russian can be split directly in half to do Novgorodian & Moskovite to simulate the differences (North and South).
Smolensk can have it's own culture as well as in Vitebsk and Bryansk (West);

Uralic can be renamed to Komi and added just as Karelian to the whole group (Great Perm under strong Russian influence, both by Novgorod and Moscow for hundreds of years before 1444);

Byelorussian is fine as it is.

 

[DmUa]

Interestingly enough, Qasimi culture exists in the 1 province of Kasimov and nobody seems to care in particular. Therefore, this seems justified.

Russian can be split directly in half to do Novgorodian & Moskovite to simulate the differences (North and South).
Smolensk can have it's own culture as well as in Vitebsk and Bryansk (West);

- here are zero sense in calling it moscovite thou, moscow became dominant only in in late 14 century and they stem from Vladimir. Current 1.16 cultural map doestn make much sense even if we accept "russian split".

For a more interesting "Ruthenia", I think it desparately needs to be split in half to be "Kievan" and "Zaporozhian".

- it can be broken at least in left bank and right bank cultures. But one can go anal even with ruthenian and break up it in gazillion of cultures.

 

[nalivayko]

Thats a pretty good argument imo.

It's the only argument... wish they would've fixed the problem with culture acceptance though instead.

 

[nalivayko]

I don't mean to offend anyone and apologies if someone still gets angry, but it's funny how most of these outrages about culture stuff always involve some flavor of Slavs...

It'd be funny... if it was true. Outrages happen with any culture that has a significant number of EU players.

 

[Vaximillian]

I don't mean to offend anyone and apologies if someone still gets angry, but it's funny how most of these outrages about culture stuff always involve some flavor of Slavs...

Dutch vs. Flemish, huh? Danish vs. Swedish vs. Norwegian, hey? Turkish vs. Greek vs. Arab vs. Persian, eh? Always Slavs, of course. Stereotypes ahoy.

 

[DmUa]

It'd be funny... if it was true. Outrages happen with any culture that has a significant number of EU players.

Dutch vs. Flemish, huh? Danish vs. Swedish vs. Norwegian, hey? Turkish vs. Greek vs. Arab vs. Persian, eh? Always Slavs, of course. Stereotypes ahoy.

- he said all slavs, than it means all slavs. Who are you to question Finnish academic historians?

 

[Omegador]

I've created a more interesting culture map for an overall "Rus" culture group. It's not perfect. For instance, obviously Muscovite isn't necessarily a thing. However, Moscow did wield tremendous influence on all independent Russian lands not currently owned by Novgorod, Lithuania, or Golden Horde (until its conquest).

"Smolenskian" is something really difficult to even pronounce. BUT, I will say that it makes more sense than having that area be under "Ryazanian". This is because the land I've highlighted is all under control of Lithuania, and Smolensk is BY FAR the most important city from central Europe on the road to Moscow. It has regional significance, including its own tag in game.

Byelorusian can alternatively be Polotskian or something similar. Historically, no difference between Byelorusian Ruthenians vs. Ukrainian Ruthenians under PLC. So maybe, Polotskian may be better.
Principalty of Polotsk on Wikipedia:
"It repeatedly asserted its sovereignty in relation to other centers of Rus', becoming a political capital, the episcopal see of a bishopric and the controller of vassal territories among Balts in the west."

Ryazan and Tver were BOTH under great influence by Moscow/Vladimir. They both start out having Rurikovich monarchs, with autocratic rule just like in Moscow. They both tried, and failed to overcome Moscow's power and were inevitably annexed.

Volhynian is meant to emulate the differences between western Ukraine (Red Ruthenia) owned by Poland (and later, Austria).
Kievan is meant to emulate Kiev's influence over its Ukrainian heartland.
Zaporozhian is distinct from Kiev in this time period, as it was a frontier, with Ukrainian cowboys known as the Cossacks. They decided they do not like the Polish Magnates, they rebelled, and even tried to unite the area with varying success. Their capitol, Sich, was located in Eastern Ukraine.

I've done some research on the Komi culture. There are many subgroups of Komi that differ between areas in Perm from areas past the Ural mountains. Uralic is an easy name for them at the moment, however, given that these are city influence-based, Permian would actually make a lot of sense. Permians are a subgroup of Finno-Ugric, but they will fit perfectly with the Karelians into a non-language oriented, "Rus" culture group, the influence of which spans the entirety of this region during the EU4 time era.

Suggestions? (Smolensk, especially)
Edit: Image

 

[Domkrat282]

I think 3 cultures like "Northern", "Central-Western" and "Southern" will better represent East Slavic culture in game period of time.
Currently, "Northern" almost disappeared (only northern accent still exist), "Central-Western" formed Russian (especially Moskow dialect) and Belorussiand cultures. "Southern" formed Ukrainian and again Russian (southern dialect) culture. Don't know which names will be good for these.
Sorry for my broken English.

 

[Vaximillian]

North Ruthenian, Central Ruthenian, West Ruthenian, South Ruthenian. You're welcome.

 

[Omegador]

North Ruthenian, Central Ruthenian, West Ruthenian, South Ruthenian. You're welcome.

But, oh so boring! Next up: North French, South French, Central French, West French... Aaaaaa!

I'd rather have cultures based on Principalities or influence of significant cities than simple "N/W/E/S".

 

[Vaximillian]

But, oh so boring! Next up: North French, South French, Central French, West French... Aaaaaa!

Otherwise we have nonsensical Ryazanian, Smolenskian, Yaroslavlian, Rostovian ad infinitum.
Having both Russian and Ruthenian was overkill though. French and Gaul, Greek and Græcian, Spanish and Hispanian anyone?

 

[Kapitalisti]

- he said all slavs, than it means all slavs. Who are you to question Finnish academic historians?

I have a hard time deciphering what you're trying to say. I meant that these debates happen whenever something is done to/about the East, West and South Slavic culture groups in EUIV or CK2.

Now, I didn't say that other culture groups don't create "outrages", the Dutch vs. Flemish is a good example. There are just more threads like this.

But have you heard many Germans complaining how their glorious united culture is fragmented? Even though they had a common language and largely common culture and were nominally part of the same state.

Not to mention that at least I usually get a very strong whiff of modern nationalism in these discussions.

2. Or, split it up into more city centered cultures if that's where you're headed. Just to make it more diverse, if you really hate our unity.

Throwing around words like "hate" and "our unity" seem a bit strong. Especially unity since Russia is divided into different states at game start.

 

[Omegador]

I have a hard time deciphering what you're trying to say. I meant that these debates happen whenever something is done to/about the East, West and South Slavic culture groups in EUIV or CK2.

Now, I didn't say that other culture groups don't create "outrages", the Dutch vs. Flemish is a good example. There are just more threads like this.

But have you heard many Germans complaining how their glorious united culture is fragmented? Even though they had a common language and largely common culture and were nominally part of the same state.

Not to mention that at least I usually get a very strong whiff of modern nationalism in these discussions.



Throwing around words like "hate" and "our unity" seem a bit strong. Especially unity since Russia is divided into different states at game start.

I actually added in that part later. I can't even find references to any sort of cultural differences between Tver, Moscow, and Ryazan during this period. They're just rival states competing for the title of Tsar, run by the same dynasty. It's more of a civil war (USA vs. CSA) or at least a brotherly war.
Besides. I care about all cultures. Not just Russian. I would like to see some consistency, though.

 

[Kapitalisti]

It'd be funny... if it was true. Outrages happen with any culture that has a significant number of EU players.

Are you implying that people are only interested in how their own culture/culture group is represented?

 

[Kapitalisti]

It's more of a civil war (USA vs. CSA) or at least a brotherly war.

But it's pretty obvious that there were and are cultural differences between "Yankee" and "Dixie"... They're both American but different flavor of American.

 

[Omegador]

Otherwise we have nonsensical Ryazanian, Smolenskian, Yaroslavlian, Rostovian ad infinitum.
Having both Russian and Ruthenian was overkill though. French and Gaul, Greek and Græcian, Spanish and Hispanian anyone?

That's why I opted to remove all traces of "Ruthenian" and "Russian" altogether. Now I think Byelorussian could also be named after Polotsk, the most important Byelorussian center of culture/influence /population in the region during this time era.

 

[Omegador]

But it's pretty obvious that there were and are cultural differences between "Yankee" and "Dixie"... They're both American but different flavor of American.

That's why "Novgorodian" and "Muscovite" would actually make sense, since Novgorodians valued their furs, their trade, their republic, their artistry and science, whilst Muscovites valued their autocracy, orthodoxy, power and influence, etc. It's a battle of Republicans vs. Monarchists between two groups of Russians in a sense.

Ryazanians? Umm... No. They were basically trying to do everything Moscow did, but they couldn't compete.