1.16: The Patch That Destroyed Russian Culture

[nalivayko]

Why does everything has to be russian - west, south, whatever?

Because the term Ukrainian/Belorussian wasn't used yet and the term Russian was prevalent (e.g. województwo ruskie - modern day Galicia, I believe?).

Vaximilian - nothing against the term Ruthenian itself, since "Rusin" is endonym of Rus people. However, using it selectively for modern day territory of Ukraine is questionable. We could argue that during EUIV timeframe it should not be applied to the territories of modern-day Russia. but the exclusions of White Russia lands is arbitrary. Basically, having an archaic Ruthenian alongside with modern Belorussian is anachronistic fallacy.

 

[Vaximillian]

Ruthenia is actually Russia in Latin.

 

[nalivayko]

Ruthenia is actually Russia in Latin.

Statement is true, what's the argument?

 

[PiriReis]

meh remove culture groups altogether and maybe give bonuses based on proximity from the heartland.

 

[Vaximillian]

Statement is true, what's the argument?

None at all. If one resents seeing „Russian“, they maybe they would appreciate seeing „Ruthenian“ a bit more, even though it's precisely the same thing.

 

[giant_sloth]

None at all. If one resents seeing „Russian“, they maybe they would appreciate seeing „Ruthenian“ a bit more, even though it's precisely the same thing.

One would not appreciate that. The closest Rus to europeans was that on the territory of modern Ukraine, and they called it Ruthenia. So what we have in game is fine.
And I'm perfectly fine with Muscovites. And stuff.

 

[nalivayko]

One would not appreciate that. The closest Rus to europeans was that on the territory of modern Ukraine, and they called it Ruthenia. So what we have in game is fine.
And I'm perfectly fine with Muscovites. And stuff.

Yes, your opinion was rather clear from your original question.

 

[nalivayko]

None at all. If one resents seeing „Russian“, they maybe they would appreciate seeing „Ruthenian“ a bit more, even though it's precisely the same thing.

Judging from comments below 'people' would appreciate what they want to appreciate irregardless of historical accuracy. One may resent the term Russian all they want, but it's not going to make Russian culture disappear from the map.

Oh... wait

 

[Shatterfury]

Judging from comments below 'people' would appreciate what they want to appreciate irregardless of historical accuracy. One may resent the term Russian all they want, but it's not going to make Russian culture disappear from the map.

Oh... wait

I don`t understand what you want to underline, there is no culture named German, French, Italian or Spanish on the map either.

 

[Warial]

None at all. If one resents seeing „Russian“, they maybe they would appreciate seeing „Ruthenian“ a bit more, even though it's precisely the same thing.

Depends on the context though. It is true that most of the time both terms can be used interchangeably, however occasionaly Ruthenian is meant to denote only predecessors of modern Ukrainians and Belarusians, i.e. Rus' people under control of Lithuania and later PLC.

 

[nalivayko]

I don`t understand what you want to underline, there is no culture named German, French, Italian or Spanish on the map either.

No longer, sadly [Not even entering an argument that emergence of unified German, French, Italian and Spanish cultures did occur after the EU4 start date, whereas people from the White Sea to the Black called themselves Russian long before that. ]

I don't like inconsistencies. If Russian culture is to be split into sub-cultures, let them do it correctly (as stated above). The presence of Ruthenian (which is just another name for Russian) and White Russian cultures alongside with Novgorodian (the best claim at sub-culture), Muscowite and Ryazanian (?!) is simply absurd.

 

[nalivayko]

Depends on the context though. It is true that most of the time both terms can be used interchangeably, however occasionaly Ruthenian is meant to denote only predecessors of modern Ukrainians and Belarusians, i.e. Rus' people under control of Lithuania and later PLC.

Indeed... in which case it's weird to see Ruthenian culture applied to only modern-day Ukrainian territories and not Belarus as well.

 

[AndrejK]

Karelia back to Finno-Ugric or death !


Belorussian can be renamed to Litvin since this what people called themselves at the time ... they did identifiy with the grand Duchy

 

[Warial]

Indeed... in which case it's weird to see Ruthenian culture applied to only modern-day Ukrainian territories and not Belarus as well.

Agreed. Personally I would like to see following split: Novgorodian in the north, Muscovite in the east and Ruthenian in Lithuanian areas. Then by 16th or maybe 17th century Cossack culture appears in areas taken from Tatars in the south, Ruthenian splits into Ukrainian and Belarusian while Muscovite and Novgorodian unite into Russian.

 

[giant_sloth]

Judging from comments below 'people' would appreciate what they want to appreciate irregardless of historical accuracy. One may resent the term Russian all they want, but it's not going to make Russian culture disappear from the map.

Oh... wait

I'm not resenting anything except for excessive use. And maybe being refered to as 'people'

 

[nalivayko]

Agreed. Personally I would like to see following split: Novgorodian in the north, Muscovite in the east and Ruthenian in Lithuanian areas. Then by 16th or maybe 17th century Cossack culture appears in areas taken from Tatars in the south, Ruthenian splits into Ukrainian and Belarusian while Muscovite and Novgorodian unite into Russian.

The whole idea behind breaking Russian into three sub-cultures was to make it difficult for an invader to gain accepted culture for all the lands between Baltic Sea and Ural mountains. I doubt the devs would go through with "merging" culture concept.

It does sound good.

I wish we could find a map of the 15 century dialect division... then again, if culture !=language, maybe we are we trying too hard.

 

[Shatterfury]

No longer, sadly [Not even entering an argument that emergence of unified German, French, Italian and Spanish cultures did occur after the EU4 start date, whereas people from the White Sea to the Black called themselves Russian long before that. ]

You are trying to say that the Germans didn`t consider themselves Germans before the declaration of the German Empire in 1871 ?

 

[nalivayko]

I'm not resenting anything except for excessive use. And maybe being refered to as 'people'

Thus, the quotations

Actually, 'people' didn't refer to you. "Judging from comments below" does. The rest is my speculative opinion.

Could you elaborate about "excessive use"? Not sure I understand the reference correctly?

 

[nalivayko]

You are trying to say that the Germans didn`t consider themselves Germans before the declaration of the German Empire in 1871 or the fact that culturally and ethnically they are the same people.

Cultural and (heck) linguistic divisions ran deeper in Germany (Italy, Spain and France) than in the Russian lands (various degrees in each scenario, of course).

 

[giant_sloth]

Could you elaborate about "excessive use"? Not sure I understand the reference correctly?

I was referring to the excessive use of word "Russian" in a proposal to call all East Slavic cultures "Russian" with corresponding adjectives.