so what would define cultural differences if not differences in lifestyle, literacy and architecture?
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1.16: The Patch That Destroyed Russian Culture
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Would actually be kind of cool if "Russia" had different ideas than "Muscovy" because Russia, especially under Peter I, changed quite significantly from its previous Moskow-centric state.
Moscovy shouldn't have Siberian Frontier for example, but Russia should. Muscovy never really colonized anything, but rather unified the Russian state. Only after there was already a Tsar did they begin exploring Siberia, etc.
Let Moscow be manpower-heavy as it's helpful early game.
These new "Russian" ideas you can switch to when playing as any Russian country once Russia is formed (with the choice to go with the new ones or stay with the old ones).
It would be nice if the ideas were a MIX of Muscovite, Novgorodian, and some of the ideas the minors have (like Smolensk, which does actually have artillery-heavy ideas and siege ability). Russia was actually pretty good at this, as seen by the siege of Kazan, later wars with the Ottomans (Bessarabia), and their wars with Sweden or PLC. Land leader shock would be awesome to have, too!
(The Tech Cost -10% really should not be Muscovite, but part of these "Russian ideas" since Rurikovich Muscovy was pretty backwards compared to Russia under the Romanovs.)
Instead, Moscovy should be very good at religious conversion and other things that did make sense during this time period.
Moscovy shouldn't have Siberian Frontier for example, but Russia should. Muscovy never really colonized anything, but rather unified the Russian state. Only after there was already a Tsar did they begin exploring Siberia, etc.
Let Moscow be manpower-heavy as it's helpful early game.
These new "Russian" ideas you can switch to when playing as any Russian country once Russia is formed (with the choice to go with the new ones or stay with the old ones).
It would be nice if the ideas were a MIX of Muscovite, Novgorodian, and some of the ideas the minors have (like Smolensk, which does actually have artillery-heavy ideas and siege ability). Russia was actually pretty good at this, as seen by the siege of Kazan, later wars with the Ottomans (Bessarabia), and their wars with Sweden or PLC. Land leader shock would be awesome to have, too!
(The Tech Cost -10% really should not be Muscovite, but part of these "Russian ideas" since Rurikovich Muscovy was pretty backwards compared to Russia under the Romanovs.)
Instead, Moscovy should be very good at religious conversion and other things that did make sense during this time period.
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Ra-ra-rasputin, lover of the Russian queen. They poured some poison, into his wine.
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This is really great idea. Maybe you should write this in "Suggestions" or something? Together with your proposal how to change the cultures and your map.
By the way, about the map.
- yellow: south-west russian (in game ruthenian)
- light orange: south russian (in game ruthenian and a part of byelorussian)
- light green: central russian (in game byelorussian, a parts of ruthenian and russian culures)
- green: north-east russian (in game russian)
- light purple: north-west russian (in game russian)
It would be very nice if the culture of the game were divided thus.
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@petertel123 Well, this is how culture defined in ethnolinguistic and anthropology:
"As i see it, society's culture consists of whatever it is one has to know or believe in order to operate in a manner acceptable to its members ... Culture, being what people have to learn as distinct from their biological heritage, must consist of the end-product of learning: knowledge in the widest sense of the term." (Goodenough 1957, cited in Cerri-Long 1999, p. 88)
^ This is being a quote of a quote from a book on a bit more broader matter.
Still, I don't argue with you on this one.
You could also check Wikipedia (though, not being the best resource of knowledge, but at the very least you can check it anytime) for its define of ethnic group:
"An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience. Unlike most other social groups, ethnicity is primarily an inherited status. Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language and/or dialect, symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, art, and physical appearance."
You may argue that ethnicity and culture are different things and you will be right, but here is what I'm trying to say:
Novgorodian, Muscovites, Ryazanian (and any other group you may bring to the region in EU4) would be in a Russian ethnic group.
But what makes their cultures different? The fact, that Novgorod was a member of a Hanseatic League? No. The fact, that Novgorod was a sort of a Noble Republic with its Veche. That sounds better. But you shouldn't forget, that those Veches weren't common only to Novgorod. They were widespread through Russian (and Ruthenian) lands. Though, under invasion and rule of Mongol Empire (and its successors) the tradition started to fade because of increasing power of Knyaz. In XIV century Veche was pretty much abolished in Muscovy, yet it was intact in Pskovian Republic, Novgorod, and, iirc, Vyatka. There were local veches in Ryazanian, Muscovian and other princedomes, but they were something on a level of villagers getting together to decide what do with crops (as a rough example).
Though ethnolinguistic does make a strong point of language difference as a way to differentiate between cultures, dialects of the same language aren't enough on their own to split cultures.
So, what we've got? We've different government types and dialects. Here we can add that Novgorod and Muscovy were rivals.
Still, though many consider that Novgorod didn't take a part in Battle of Kulikovo, there are mentions of 7000 Novgorodian warriors sent to Great Knyaz Dmitry Ivanovich. Furthermore, Novgorod was Orthodox (as all other Russian princedomes), it was a part of the so-called Kievan Rus (though, nowadays here in Russia, it is called "Древнерусское государство" (Drevnerusskoe Gosudarstvo). I don't want to start another "holy war", so I won't make any arguments about both naming. But I would notice, that Novgorodian land is considered as the one "where it all started".
Furthermore, the way people lived in towns and villages of Russian princedomes were extremely similar. Saints and Old Heroes were all the same.
As you can see, this is a rather hard topic. You can argue for Novgorodian culture being something completely different from Muscovite (or even Russian), and you may argue that they are just the shades of the macro-Russian culture. While I don't like (as I already said before) when Muscovites and Novgrodians are divided into different cultures (especially when it effectively destroys Russian culture as a thing in the game), I still believe, that if you started to diversify it, you should do it to the end. There should be Smolenskian culture, as a vital part of Russian ethnos. There should be Mordvins (as a half-mordvin I want to see them in-game). Ruthenian lands should be split between different cultures within one ethnic group. So shall be made with Polish lands. With Ottomans lands. And, may be, with Japanese lands as well.
"As i see it, society's culture consists of whatever it is one has to know or believe in order to operate in a manner acceptable to its members ... Culture, being what people have to learn as distinct from their biological heritage, must consist of the end-product of learning: knowledge in the widest sense of the term." (Goodenough 1957, cited in Cerri-Long 1999, p. 88)
^ This is being a quote of a quote from a book on a bit more broader matter.
Still, I don't argue with you on this one.
You could also check Wikipedia (though, not being the best resource of knowledge, but at the very least you can check it anytime) for its define of ethnic group:
"An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience. Unlike most other social groups, ethnicity is primarily an inherited status. Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language and/or dialect, symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, art, and physical appearance."
You may argue that ethnicity and culture are different things and you will be right, but here is what I'm trying to say:
Novgorodian, Muscovites, Ryazanian (and any other group you may bring to the region in EU4) would be in a Russian ethnic group.
But what makes their cultures different? The fact, that Novgorod was a member of a Hanseatic League? No. The fact, that Novgorod was a sort of a Noble Republic with its Veche. That sounds better. But you shouldn't forget, that those Veches weren't common only to Novgorod. They were widespread through Russian (and Ruthenian) lands. Though, under invasion and rule of Mongol Empire (and its successors) the tradition started to fade because of increasing power of Knyaz. In XIV century Veche was pretty much abolished in Muscovy, yet it was intact in Pskovian Republic, Novgorod, and, iirc, Vyatka. There were local veches in Ryazanian, Muscovian and other princedomes, but they were something on a level of villagers getting together to decide what do with crops (as a rough example).
Though ethnolinguistic does make a strong point of language difference as a way to differentiate between cultures, dialects of the same language aren't enough on their own to split cultures.
So, what we've got? We've different government types and dialects. Here we can add that Novgorod and Muscovy were rivals.
Still, though many consider that Novgorod didn't take a part in Battle of Kulikovo, there are mentions of 7000 Novgorodian warriors sent to Great Knyaz Dmitry Ivanovich. Furthermore, Novgorod was Orthodox (as all other Russian princedomes), it was a part of the so-called Kievan Rus (though, nowadays here in Russia, it is called "Древнерусское государство" (Drevnerusskoe Gosudarstvo). I don't want to start another "holy war", so I won't make any arguments about both naming. But I would notice, that Novgorodian land is considered as the one "where it all started".
Furthermore, the way people lived in towns and villages of Russian princedomes were extremely similar. Saints and Old Heroes were all the same.
As you can see, this is a rather hard topic. You can argue for Novgorodian culture being something completely different from Muscovite (or even Russian), and you may argue that they are just the shades of the macro-Russian culture. While I don't like (as I already said before) when Muscovites and Novgrodians are divided into different cultures (especially when it effectively destroys Russian culture as a thing in the game), I still believe, that if you started to diversify it, you should do it to the end. There should be Smolenskian culture, as a vital part of Russian ethnos. There should be Mordvins (as a half-mordvin I want to see them in-game). Ruthenian lands should be split between different cultures within one ethnic group. So shall be made with Polish lands. With Ottomans lands. And, may be, with Japanese lands as well.
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Also, this might be minor but whoever posts this in the Suggestions subforum should ask Paradox to also swap Abolish the Mestnichestvo and Siberian Frontier around, considering the abolition happened in 1682 and by then Russia had already gotten to the Pacific coast.
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As can be seen on the already posted screenshot for Russia's part of that map that's pretty much exactly how the in game cultures are divided in 1.16 except the light green area is split in two with a border around Smolensk.
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- its al standard regional variations, as i said Londoner lifestyle would be different from lifestyle of rural engishman. Same thing with architecture, and playing architecture card in time were architects were typically non locals is hilarious, im not even mentioning that alot of time local architecture is driven by availability of local resources, it have nothing to do with culture. Literacy level is just laughable, it would wary greatly inside one country even today, its all have zero relations to culture. Get a clue.
- as example id mention infamous chuckchi "wars", central government discovered that here were hostilities with locals only after whooping 20 years after conflict began, and immoderately after that they sent orders to cease hostilities, seek peaceful solution and to begin trade.
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This is really great idea. Maybe you should write this in "Suggestions" or something? Together with your proposal how to change the cultures and your map.
By the way, about the map.
This is a map of east slavic dialects at the end XIV century. By the beginning of the game there's not much difference, i think. Little hint for those who don't know great russian language:
- yellow: south-west russian (in game ruthenian)
- light orange: south russian (in game ruthenian and a part of byelorussian)
- light green: central russian (in game byelorussian, a parts of ruthenian and russian culures)
- green: north-east russian (in game russian)
- light purple: north-west russian (in game russian)
It would be very nice if the culture of the game were divided thus.
I'll make a post in Suggestions with what I had in mind.
As for your map, it is helpful information. However, it game, it would be lame to call things after dialects especially if Paradox is trying to move away from culture = languages.
As such, the only solution to this would be to use the largest, most powerful cities in their respective area to symbolize the local culture. This is true with the centers of trade in Moscow, Novgorod, and Kiev for instance.
I'll have to think about some NI's that could work for "Russian ideas" before making the post. It would likely include: Core creation cost reduction, Merchant, Colonist/Discovery, Tech cost. As for military ideas, I would include one manpower idea and fort defense, but am unsure what else to include to avoid bias.
Adding any useful quality ideas would get people to rage about this sort of stuff, and frankly, we don't need more boring Prussian ideas here. Probably siege ability and some nice artillery from Smolensk, perhaps some cossack cavalry that can rival some Polish hussaria. Pretty well rounded, would seem. No need for discipline or morale even, Defensive ideas fill this gap just fine in all my playthroughs with any large nation.
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Telling me to get a clue while completely evading the question, well done
That's 'pick and choose'. If you are using the above posted screenshot for reference than merge Ryazan' and White Russian culture into Central Russian and split Ruthenian into Southern Russian and Southwest Russian.
If Central Russian is too big at this point for your taste, consider adding Sevryuk/Severian sub-culture based on former Chernigov principality lands.
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Why does everything has to be russian - west, south, whatever?
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Well, you need at least 10 modifiers (7 idea slots + 1 ambition + 2 traditions). As for tags in the East Slavic group, you have:
Muscovy and Novgorod;
Pskov, Tver, Ryazan and Yaroslavl;
Nizhny-Novgorod;
Smolensk, Polotsk, Kiev, Zaporozhie;
Ruthenian minors.
That means 12 NI sets to choose from to form a mighty Russia set. And obviously, you could revamp Muscovy's ideas too.
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Who cares about bias?
Polish ideas was changed without massive changes in their region and no proper reason except "PLC falling apart to often".Our work is do proposal. Will be good if Paradox swap "Abolish the Mestnichestvo" and "Siberian Frontier" ideas at least.
And for help you, here's my proposal for Russian ideas:
Traditions:
+ 20% manpower recovery speed or + 25% manpower
- 15% core creation cost
Ambition:
+1 Land leader shock
1st idea: (Fur Trade)
+1 merchant
2nd idea: (The landlords army? (Поместное войско))
+ 10% cavalry power or -10% regiment cost
3rd idea: (Focus on Artillery)
+ 10% artillery power
+ 10% siege ability
4th idea: (Siberian Frontier)
+1 Colonist
- auto explore adjacent provinces
5th idea: (Abolish the Mestnichestvo)
+ 10% production efficiency
6th idea: (Cadet corps)
+1 army traditions
7th idea: (Russian Academy of Science)
- 10% tech cost
+ 20% manpower recovery speed or + 25% manpower
- 15% core creation cost
Ambition:
+1 Land leader shock
1st idea: (Fur Trade)
+1 merchant
2nd idea: (The landlords army? (Поместное войско))
+ 10% cavalry power or -10% regiment cost
3rd idea: (Focus on Artillery)
+ 10% artillery power
+ 10% siege ability
4th idea: (Siberian Frontier)
+1 Colonist
- auto explore adjacent provinces
5th idea: (Abolish the Mestnichestvo)
+ 10% production efficiency
6th idea: (Cadet corps)
+1 army traditions
7th idea: (Russian Academy of Science)
- 10% tech cost
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How can you have Russian ideas without a single mention of religion? They are begging for a tolerance of the true faith bonus.
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Current Moscow/Russia ideas have a mention about it?
We are trying to divide Russian and Moscow ideas here. As Omegador said:
Moscow could have religious ideas like conversion power or tolerance of the true faith or something else. I'll be thinking about it.