1.16: The Patch That Destroyed Russian Culture

[Itchel]

Discussion going in the wrong way, i see.

Let's take a look at split russian culture from other side. Now russian culture become accepted very fast, i undestand that point. But until Russia exist, player nor AI can't change culture and lands can be reclaimed at war or rebellion. With patch 1.16 there's no longer primary country for russian culture. This will make it easy to conquer the whole region by the parts. Also, to change culture as needed.

Splitting didn't stop player nor AI from conquering russian region and didn't solve a problem. In fact, this just lead to Russia will be created even rarer than it is now. Weak AI just can't handle with increased unrest and -15% tax/production. That means none third power in eastern europe besides Sweden and PLC.

One of the ways to fix that is changing second russian tradition from useless "- 20 infantry cost" to "- 20 accepted culture threshold". It will make Moscow/Russia more stable in early game.
And more historical.

Say that to the many culture which were eradicated, genocided and deported for mother russia.

 

[Omegador]

There's no point in splitting Ruthenian - if you do, you'll have several cultures of 2-3 provinces. New "russian" cultures will still be big

No, because Ruthenian itself is almost as big as Russian. You can't simply look at land area and call it good - it's all about the development. Volhynia area is around 5 provinces, Kiev area is around 4 (with Kiev having loads of development), Zaporozhie and Chernigov area both 4-ish provinces. Splitting it into 3 wouldn't be so bad, since the same is being done to Russian.

Japanese, by the way, will now be by far the largest culture. Which too, was pretty homogenous aside from religious differences and clans. With the exception of Hokkaido and Ryukyu of course.

I've read this thread up until the 5th page...
While I generally don't find it either historical or rational to split up Russian culture at all (and especially like this), this is not a nerf. Though, I wonder how much will Russian AIs suffer now. With this culture diversity.
Also, if you want to add (lol) Ryazanian culture (which was located in Ryazan of all things), why does it eats Smolenskian land? OP is right about "lets diversify it completely".
Where are Volhynian and Kievan cultures? Where is Chernigovian? Ruthenians should be brought to the same state as Russians. And, no, Lithuania _should have_ problems with them. Khmelnitsky' Uprising did start under PLC, but the bomb was there always. We need more consistency.

Also! Stop about this pseudo-linguistic jokes about Novgorodian dialect. Yes, there were one. No, dialect isn't enough to split culture.
If it was enough, then there should be Kansai, Tohoku, Hokkaido, et cetera cultures in Japan.
And, no, difference between Chinese "dialects" is closer to a differences between languages. If anything, they should be considered as different languages with the same logoforms. Close to what we have in Slavic languages. Before you quote "dialects as a way to culture split", please, read more stuff about it.

Lastly! Why Uralic is out of the picture of "Russian region cultures?" It should be added there by all means. Some of tartars as well

Agreed on absolutely all points. Thank you for posting this insight!

 

[al.gb]

Say that to the many culture which were eradicated, deported and genocided to "unify" russia.

Say what? Please, enumerate this "eradicated, deported and genocided" cultures in game period.

And tell us, if so, how can it be that Kazan or Astrakhan Tatars not rebelled during the time of troubles? Perhaps because of wise state policy, not "oppression" and "eradication".

 

[Itchel]

Say what? Please, enumerate this "eradicated, deported and genocided" cultures in game period.

And tell us, if so, how can it be that Kazan or Astrakhan Tatars not rebelled during the time of troubles? Perhaps because of wise state policy, not "oppression" and "eradication".

Actually, I think i'm mixing up communist russia, Excuse me.

Although, I still don't agree with your suggesiton because then russia will have both cultural conversion ideas and cultural acceptance ideas, these do not fit together at all.

 

[Omegador]

Say that to the many culture which were eradicated, genocided and deported for mother russia.



To those disagreeing, care to explain why there's russian from murmansk all the way down to georgia? Or from smolensk all the way to kamchatka??:

Look at europa and look at all the cultures that are south of russian: we have mishar,crimeans,kazani's,circassians.nogai and many other minor caucasian cultures Now go read about the genocides and deportations of these people

Then we have the forced deportation of the germans, koreans, poles, many of the uralic people and many of the baltic people

And even more with the moldavians, black sea turks,greeks, bulgarians, armenians . . .

Say what? Please, enumerate this "eradicated, deported and genocided" cultures in game period.

And tell us, if so, how can it be that Kazan or Astrakhan Tatars not rebelled during the time of troubles? Perhaps because of wise state policy, not "oppression" and "eradication".

Not to mention, that many Russians have Tatar blood at some point in their family tree, including (and even more especially) those from the nobility. Tatars also still exist today, it's not like they were eradicated or something. You're thinking of some bad Soviet policy, not Russia here.

 

[Itchel]

Not to mention, that many Russians have Tatar blood at some point in their family tree, including (and even more especially) those from the nobility. Tatars also still exist today, it's not like they were eradicated or something. You're thinking of some bad Soviet policy, not Russia here.

haha, please update my quote, that rant it's.. embarassing >.<
And yeah I know and i admit, that was my fault for mistakening communist russia with tsarist russia.

But I sure hope you know that these deportations werent humane at all, Many if not sometimes half of the population of deported people would die of starvation or other problems, This includes the koningsberg germans deported to the rich germany... So sure the tatrs may have survived, But they are nowhere near as plentiful as they once were

 

[al.gb]

Besides, I'm not totally against the split of the Russian culture. But changes of game balance should be reflected on the ideas of countries that are affected by them. It is normal practice, devs did that many times.

Why Russian ideas and traditions must be exception? Сhanging second russian tradition from "- 20 infantry cost" to "- 20 accepted culture threshold" looks normal to me.

ps: And I'll hope that silly names "Nogorodian", "Ryazanian" and "Moscovite" would be changed to something better.

 

[Itchel]

Besides, I'm not totally against the split of the Russian culture. But changes of game balance should be reflected on the ideas of countries that are affected by them. It is normal practice, devs did that many times.

Why Russian ideas and traditions must be exception? Сhanging second russian tradition from "- 20 infantry cost" to "- 20 accepted culture threshold" looks normal to me.

ps: And I'll hope that silly names "Nogorodian", "Ryazanian" and "Moscovite" would be changed to something better.

I think a better change is changing their -20 culture conversion cost with the 20 accepted culture threshold.
Otherwise they'll have two conflicting ideas, And since russia tends to have trouble supporting their vast armies, -20 infantry cost is extremely helpful especially late game, oooh mmmm...

 

[Kapitalisti]

Сhanging second russian tradition from "- 20 infantry cost" to "- 20 accepted culture threshold" looks normal to me.

Why? "Russian" (= Muscovite) ideas already give you a bonus to culture conversion which seems more fitting. And again, once you unify Russia, you're jumped into an empire and thus all Russian cultures become accepted.

 

[al.gb]

Actually, I think i'm mixing up communist russia, Excuse me.

Although, I still don't agree with your suggesiton because then russia will have both cultural conversion ideas and cultural acceptance ideas, these do not fit together at all.

Ok, i get it. Of course, in this case, cultural conversion must be removed from "Opprichnina" idea and replase with something else. May be "- 1 global unrest".

Actually, in russian ideas can be make a lot of changes that will make them more diverse.

 

[Omegador]

Ok, i get it. Of course, in this case, cultural conversion must be removed from "Opprichnina" idea and replase with something else. May be "- 1 global unrest".

Actually, in russian ideas can be make a lot of changes that will make them more diverse.

You trying to kill my culture conversion strats? -1 Unrest not nearly as useful as conversion cost, as it saves thousands of diplomatic points over the course of an entire game. -1 Unrest useless when everyone is Orthodox and Russian anyways.

 

[giant_sloth]

No, because Ruthenian itself is almost as big as Russian. You can't simply look at land area and call it good - it's all about the development. Volhynia area is around 5 provinces, Kiev area is around 4 (with Kiev having loads of development), Zaporozhie and Chernigov area both 4-ish provinces. Splitting it into 3 wouldn't be so bad, since the same is being done to Russian.

They said they were planning to nerf Lithuania - they'll probably nerf the development of Ruthenian provinces and all be ok no need to do anything else

 

[al.gb]

You trying to kill my culture conversion strats? -1 Unrest not nearly as useful as conversion cost, as it saves thousands of diplomatic points over the course of an entire game. -1 Unrest useless when everyone is Orthodox and Russian anyways.

No, i don't. With "- 20% accepted culture threshold" and "Humanist ideas" there is no need culture conversion, and that saves all diplomatic points.

"- 1 unrest" is the best choice for conquering hordes. Besides, it's one of the options.

 

[Basileos]

I'am sure that Ryazanians is just for gameplay, not for history. In other hand, there is still existing proverb "U nas v Ryazani gribi s glazami - ih yadyat, oni glyadyat" (У нас в РЯзани грибы с глазами - их ядят, они глядят), it's symbolizing disappearing ryazanian dialect. Sry for non-translating it in English, because it will have no sense. It's all about "ya".

 

[Kapitalisti]

No, i don't. With "- 20% accepted culture threshold" and "Humanist ideas" there is no need culture conversion, and that saves all diplomatic points.

"- 1 unrest" is the best choice for conquering hordes. Besides, it's one of the options.

Yes, but that's not really an optimal strategy for Russia. Heretic and heathen tolerance isn't that important when you want to convert everything you own and the nature of Orthodox bonuses means that you'll want to do that. And again, nothing really changes after this change since once you're Russia all those regional cultures are accepted anyway. Then you convert (both religion and culture) of the eastern steppes, which is already cheap and extremely cheap with Russian and Religious ideas. Then you combine Russian ideas with Quantity ideas, Orthodoxy bonus and a strong noble estate to get basically infinite manpower.

Seriously, once you're Russia, how's it any different in 1.16 than it's now? Or have you thus far been playing Russia with Humanist ideas and not convert the steppes and Siberia?

 

[Xellos Slayer]

It would be rather strange, if an idea named after "Oprichnina" would have cultural tolerance in it. Or reduced national unrest. Oprichnina is similar to Spanish Inquisition in a sense... Both are disgusting pages of their corresponding countries. Though, looking at French Ideas, which are glorious and graceful, I wonder, why did Spain and Russia got their not-so-glorious things... Its strange. But, whatever. There a lot of false information about Oprichnina (and, probably, about Inquistion as well). Generally, many information about Muscovian state was brought to the West by western mercenaries, diplomats, and so on. And most of them wrote their visions about Muscovy rather one-sided trying to appeal to their new suzerens. But this is a discussion for another thread...

I believe, that if Paradox started to diversify cultures, they should do it everywhere. We've got a little Ryazanian culture... Theodoro got its own culture. Let's diversify Ruthenian cultures. I would love to see a ton of new cultures in Caucausus. That are should be a real pain for conquers. A ton of pain. A whole wagon of pain. There should be more states. And a better map... But, meh, that would be a ton of micro-states and a ton of micro-management in area.

 

[al.gb]

Yes, but that's not really an optimal strategy for Russia. Heretic and heathen tolerance isn't that important when you want to convert everything you own and the nature of Orthodox bonuses means that you'll want to do that. And again, nothing really changes after this change since once you're Russia all those regional cultures are accepted anyway. Then you convert (both religion and culture) of the eastern steppes, which is already cheap and extremely cheap with Russian and Religious ideas. Then you combine Russian ideas with Quantity ideas, Orthodoxy bonus and a strong noble estate to get basically infinite manpower.

Seriously, once you're Russia, how's it any different in 1.16 than it's now? Or have you thus far been playing Russia with Humanist ideas and not convert the steppes and Siberia?

That's the problem when Russian ideas good only for "massive army" play style. I never played Russia with quantity ideas and i don't think this is best strategy. A set of Defensive/Offensive/Quality ideas makes more sense. Russian ideas have a lack of "quality" not "quantity".

For example russian tradition "+ 25% manpower" and ambition "+ 50% manpower". You know another country with duplicate ideas? I didn't. This "ambition" can be replaced "+ 1 Land leader shock" for represent assault tactic and outstanding generals of russian army in napoleonic wars. So there is a possibility to make playing for Russia is more variable. And those who want more quantity, always can pick "quantity ideas".

Same for religious and cultural conversion of the steppes and siberia. Acceptance of cultures might be more simple and more effective solution.
If policy of conversion was applied IRL, there's be none of tatars nor islam in Russia by now.

 

[Thesian]

You know another country with duplicate ideas?

Najd. 2nd idea and ambition.

This "ambition" can be replaced "+ 1 Land leader shock" for represent assault tactic and outstanding generals of russian army in napoleonic wars.

Wouldn't mind it thematically, however it would certainly a big nerf in the sense that one shock pip is far less valuable than +50% manpower. Should probably increase the first one to +50% in that case.

 

[Xellos Slayer]

Same for religious and cultural conversion of the steppes and siberia. Acceptance of cultures might be more simple and more effective solution.
If policy of conversion was applied IRL, there's be none of tatars nor islam in Russia by

It actually was. I also dislike when people touch this particular part of history, but there were assimilation politics in Russia. Though, whenever people start to say about thousands of cultures exterminated by Russians on their soil, thats more than exageration. Yes, indeed. There were cases where whole ethnos was forcefuly moved, still nomadic tribes were more or less left to be as they were. Tartars lost a lot of their population during Kazanian Wars, but they are still here. They are numerous. And they are considered equal to Russians in Russia (nowadays). There were laws which protected natives even in Russian Empire. And there were acts and pacts about moving ethnoses away. Both are true. There is also the fact, that a ton of Russian colonialism was made with wide Cossacs participation. They were sent to explore Siberia. Many of them went here on their own. So, many of their acts are shrouded in the mist of ages. You can't say that Cossacks were tolerant.

But I agree that those quantity based national ideas of Russia are just plain wrong. They may be strong, but it doesn't make them right. Russians weren't some uncivilized hordes of barbarians, who died in thousands to defeat 10 prussians. And (basically) this is how it painted in EU now.

 

[al.gb]

It would be rather strange, if an idea named after "Oprichnina" would have cultural tolerance in it. Or reduced national unrest. Oprichnina is similar to Spanish Inquisition in a sense... Both are disgusting pages of their corresponding countries. Though, looking at French Ideas, which are glorious and graceful, I wonder, why did Spain and Russia got their not-so-glorious things... Its strange.

I also would prefer the idea of the "oprichnina" was replaced by something more neutral. Something like "Pushkarski prikaz" (which roughly translates as "artillery yard") to show how from the mid-sixteenth century Russian state has a focus on artillery and the assault of fortifications. This "yard" has produced well-quality cannons and a lot of them. It could be "+ 10% artillery power" or "+10% siege ability" modifier. Seems glorious and graceful enough.