1.16: Further improvement of the map in Russian region.

[al.gb]

After long time (since "Art of War"), developers again pay attention to the Russian region.
In the first 1.16 dev diary was represented a map with new borders and a couple of new provinces. It was good, but on closer examination there is not much changed.

Then I took on the responsibility to improve this map a little.

The red dot on the map is the approximate position of the province capital. Number is the item from the list below.

1. Velikiye Luki (rus.: Великие Луки).
Located exactly where now the in-game Kholm. Strategic fortress to protect from Lithuania, also played important role during Livonian War.
In 1444 belongs to Novgorod. The province can be called just "Luki" with a capital "Velikiye Luki".

2. Kholm (rus.: Холм).
Already on the map, but its capital should be up north by the Lovat river.

Spoiler

3. Vyazma (rus.: Вязьма)
Big town on the trade route from Moscow to Europe. Due to its location was part of the claims of Lithuania and Moscow.
Later town was fortified against Commonwealth raids.
In 1444 belongs to Lithuania.

4. Rostov (rus.: Ростов).
One of the oldest Russian cities, important religion and craft center. Had significant fortifications.
In 1444 belongs to Moscow.

5. Totma (rus.: Тотьма)
Located between Vologda and Ustyug. In the game timeline, one of the most prosperous towns of the Russian North, due to the trade and to the salt production.
In 1444 belongs to Moscow.

Additional changes in Russian region:

Spoiler

1. Pronsk (rus.: Пронск)
Prospeuros city, that along with Pereslavl-Ryazansky was one of most important center of Ryazan principality.
In 1444 belongs to Ryazan.

2. Yelets (rus.: Елец)
Rename province instead of Lipetsk that was founded in 1703. Border town, not once exposed to the raids of nomads. Timur sacked it in 1395, and the tatars devastated it in 1414, but town always rebuilt. In 1595 become a fortress.
In 1444 belongs to Golden Horde, but there must be russian (or ryazanian ) culture and a core of Ryazan.

3. Kashin (rus.: Кашин)
Significant trade and craft center of the Tver principality. The city minted its own coins, was famous for its dyes.
In 1444 belongs to Tver.

4. Ustyuzhna (rus.: Устюжна)
One of most important center (along with Tula) of iron processing and gun smithing in Russia. Another name of the city is Iron Ustyug (Железный Устюг).
In 1444 belongs to Moscow.

These cities on the map:

Spoiler

If anyone wants to, it can look for these cities on the Mercator map.
(Another good map of the Eastern Europe)

Spoiler

I believe that these changes of the Russian region will make the map a bit detailed and nice. And devs will not need to come back to this later.

 

[MilkAndLettuce]

Some nice suggestions, and I appreciate that you took some time to actually describe why these provinces should be added. Hopefully Paradox takes a look at this!

 

[al.gb]

Some nice suggestions, and I appreciate that you took some time to actually describe why these provinces should be added. Hopefully Paradox takes a look at this!

In first place, i think map should be more detailed after split of the russian culture.

As I already said, all of these cities was important centers at start of the game. Some history facts can be read by the links on their names.
In short, that's why:
1. Velikiye Luki. The first line of defense of the Novgorodian republic (later Russia) against Lithuania, then the PLC.
2. Kholm. I just pointed out its actually location, current position on the map is wrong.
3. Vyazma. Trade city, important part of the Principality of Smolensk. In-game Smolensk is too big, so the Vyazma should be separated from it.
4. Rostov. Center of the Principality of Rostov. And just take a look on the Tver, it is ugly, isn't it?
5. Totma. For now, the Russian North on the map is a very vast and empty. But IRL in that region is exist some settlements focused on the salt production and trade. Totma is the biggest and the richest of them.

And, by the way, all of these cities was founded long before the game start.

 

[Me_]

It seems reasonable, although adding Rostov to Muscovy would make Yaroslav fully surrounded.

 

[al.gb]

It seems reasonable, although adding Rostov to Muscovy would make Yaroslav fully surrounded.

In that time Rostov actually belongs to it. After 1430 it was ruled by the governor of the prince of Moscow. And at 1474 Rostov was completely incorporated into Grand Principality of Moscow.

But, for game reasons, it can be transferred to Tver or even Yaroslavl.

 

[Hirdmann778]

In that time Rostov actually belongs to it. After 1430 it was ruled by the governor of the prince of Moscow. And at 1474 Rostov was completely incorporated into Grand Principality of Moscow.

But, for game reasons, it can be transferred to Tver or even Yaroslavl.

Rostov can be just another vassal

 

[al.gb]

Rostov can be just another vassal

Then, in this case, Moscow will have 4 vassals. It means there is no place for diplomatic relations (no alliances, no dynastic marriages, no even right of passage). It isn't good.

 

[Venc]

Then, in this case, Moscow will have 4 vassals. It means there is no place for diplomatic relations (no alliances, no dynastic marriages, no even right of passage). It isn't good.

If you have some ideas about it, you must write your position. All gamers in Russia and Europe (and another countries)))) want historical accuracy in Paradox games.
Rostov must be a part of Moscow nation. It is not vassal. This is province with high level of autonomy (50%)
P.S.
Your proposal look good

 

[al.gb]

If you have some ideas about it, you must write your position. All gamers in Russia and Europe (and another counties)))) want historical accuracy in Paradox games.
Rostov must be a part of Moscow nation. It is not vassal. This is privince with high level of autonomy (50%)
P.S.
Your proposal look good

I would prefer to Rostov became a part of Moscow. Initial 50% autonomy for province seems interesting.

But there will be no harm if the developers decide otherwise. Sometimes game balance prevails over historical accuracy. I'd just like to see this province in the game, no matter whom it will belong.

 

[Everto12]

This is brilliant sir, good work

 

[Pshek]

Yes, Russia need more provinces.

 

[NikitaDirigable]

Where provinces Yelets, Old Russa, Kashin, Uglich, Zaozerie, Pronsk, Gorodets, Kozelsk, Orsha, Toropets?

 

[Venc]

I think this cities are not important in 1444

 

[al.gb]

Where provinces Yelets, Old Russa, Kashin, Uglich, Zaozerie, Pronsk, Gorodets, Kozelsk, Orsha, Toropets?

I also would like to see much more detailed map of Russia, but it will directly affect the game balance. The developers obviously won't do it. So I just chose some rather important cities in order to fill the empty spaces on the map and break too big provinces.

Still it would be interesting: with increased number of provinces and common development, there would be no need for "quantity" traditions and finally we could see the suitable NI for Russia. But if in this matter nothing has changed for years, why should it change now?

 

[al.gb]

I found a great map of Eastern Europe in English. It exactly matches the start time of the game (1400-1462). Highlighted red the cities that I propose to add to the map.
Which cities would you like to see in the Russian region? There is a condition: they must not be too close to existing ones.

Spoiler

 

[Martin Lesnoy]

I would agree with the addition of Rostov, but not as a vassal. From what you describe, it sounds more of an internal administrative subdivision. When I look at the map, the thing that bothers me the most are provinces of cities which don't get founded until long after the start date (e.g. Alatyr, 1552; Penza, 1663). The whole area could do with a rethink, and by the looks of the latest dev threads, they're likely to give it some needed attention for the next patch.

 

[Demetrios]

Rostov was in a weird situation at the game's start. The principality had been split in 1328, and the ruler of one of the halves had sold his share to Moscow in 1425. The other half was technically still independent until 1474, but by the time the game starts, the remaining prince was basically being told what to do by the Muscovite representative permanently in residence at his court. Moreover, I don't think I've ever found a map that properly shows the split, never mind which half was sold to Moscow first.

 

[Martin Lesnoy]

Rostov was in a weird situation at the game's start. The principality had been split in 1328, and the ruler of one of the halves had sold his share to Moscow in 1425. The other half was technically still independent until 1474, but by the time the game starts, the remaining prince was basically being told what to do by the Muscovite representative permanently in residence at his court. Moreover, I don't think I've ever found a map that properly shows the split, never mind which half was sold to Moscow first.

Interesting. do you know the names of the two Rostovs in that period?

 

[al.gb]

I would agree with the addition of Rostov, but not as a vassal. From what you describe, it sounds more of an internal administrative subdivision. When I look at the map, the thing that bothers me the most are provinces of cities which don't get founded until long after the start date (e.g. Alatyr, 1552; Penza, 1663). The whole area could do with a rethink, and by the looks of the latest dev threads, they're likely to give it some needed attention for the next patch.

Further attention to the Russian region would be great. Also, you can add Tambov (1636) and Lipetsk (restored in 1703) to the list of cities that were founded after game start. It is a pity that EU has no mechanics for growth of cities, as for example in Total war: Empire. It would be very appropriate for the steppe region.

Rostov was in a weird situation at the game's start. The principality had been split in 1328, and the ruler of one of the halves had sold his share to Moscow in 1425. The other half was technically still independent until 1474, but by the time the game starts, the remaining prince was basically being told what to do by the Muscovite representative permanently in residence at his court. Moreover, I don't think I've ever found a map that properly shows the split, never mind which half was sold to Moscow first.

This is not a reason not to add Rostov on map. As already mentioned, it can be province with high level of autonomy.

Interesting. do you know the names of the two Rostovs in that period?

Were divided the land of principality, not the city. Grand prince Vasily II received half of the Rostov revenues, as well as his wife after his death.

 

[Martin Lesnoy]

This is not a reason not to add Rostov on map. As already mentioned, it can be province with high level of autonomy.

There's very little sources on the principality of this time period, and virtually nothing on it's rulers. So, I think your solution is the only viable one.