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theKLR

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Yeah, totally agree that suggestions and Q and A before launch even though it is a work in progress is a good thing :)

But 100% statements like "patch is destroying small nations" is just not right.

And also, small countries DID have an extremly hard time blobbing IRL

Started a good debate tho!
 
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ChildeR

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1. For the vast majority of possible starting nations in the game, getting 100% means that you're either gutted or dead outright.
2. Therefore, the only nations that can possibly benefit materially from revanchism are nations large enough to sustain 100% losses without being gutted completely (or dead literally).
[...]
I don't think you can possibly make a rational case that any of 1-4 are inaccurate.
I don't see why 2. should follow from 1. You don't necessarily need 100% revanchism for it to be materially useful. And even if you did, wouldn't that be a balancing issue rather than a problem with design?
 

Quaade

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Yeah, totally agree that suggestions and Q and A before launch even though it is a work in progress is a good thing :)

But 100% statements like "patch is destroying small nations" is just not right.

And also, small countries DID have an extremly hard time blobbing IRL

Started a good debate tho!
Hanseatic league, Milan, Venice, Netherlands, Prussia, Russia... Granted there are some special circumstances, but this only list the ones in Europe :)

But might add, it wasn´t small countries that had a hard time blobbing, it was countries in general :) Even the most expansionist seemed to stop expanding, the empire was simply to difficult to keep together as it was, and the risk of straining it would be too great :) The difficulties in communications, centralization or decentralization were huge problems that´s not addressed here. A simple example... A rebel army could rise up, in-game you know on day one (actually you know it in advance when it hit 90 %, but that´s another issue), in reality it could be days before you got the news and days before being able to react. The rebels could have taken a larger part of the area and secured some control and making ready for your armies. Which lead to the next little issue, you can pull the whole army away, in reality other rebels might use this to their advantage and jump up, other nations would have seen this as a moment to attack, so the necessity to keep the army divided is lost which in return could have put you at risk of losing the battle against the rebel thus pulling more troops or dragging out the rebellion which again could ignite more or make other nations attack or support the rebels... Just a short run-down ;-)

I do agree with him though, the feature doesn´t really help smaller nations, but then again... It was never proclaimed as such, it was claimed to help the loser so it could really work by design that small nations could not have it´s effect. However I dislike having "improvements" that are added unevenly, especially with no real reasoning. The reason here are to prevent dog-pile and get faster on your feet... Why should smaller nations not have this effect, they suffer more from losing 1/2 or 3/4 of their nation than France would losing 5-6 provinces.

Mechanics that are specifically to be used and makes sense to be applied only to larger nations, I´m all for it... Like my support of suggestions towards regional governance, a small nations have no need for this since they can control their provinces with ease. But Ottoman or England in India could have some uses for it (should be added with more penalties to larger empires, as a way to avoid these penalties).
 

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I don't see why 2. should follow from 1. You don't necessarily need 100% revanchism for it to be materially useful. And even if you did, wouldn't that be a balancing issue rather than a problem with design?

No, but the smaller you are, the less useful it is. I guess you could make a case that a buff to large nations is a "balance" issue. In a game that is deliberately imbalanced and as part of a trend greater than a year long to buff large nations, it's fair to conclude that making large nations stronger than they were already is intentional.

I for one, welcome a change that will help the game stay a challenge longer. And I wasn't planning on doing any of the OPMs achievements anyway (I did an exception for the Knights because they have an okay starting situation), so I don't consider the fact that some may become much harder such a shame. Being next door to a superpower that will warn you (something that can't happen to Knights or Cyprus because islands) at the first occasion is no fun.

The problem with a fundamental design flaw isn't just for small nations. What's to stop a super blob from dumping 100% war score to coalitions then just keep going, out-expanding that with nigh-permanent revanchism?
 
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The problem with a fundamental design flaw isn't just for small nations. What's to stop a super blob from dumping 100% war score to coalitions then just keep going, out-expanding that with nigh-permanent revanchism?
I believe Wiz already answered that one actually :) he doesn´t agree with that being the case... Can´t remember why, but it made sense and put a smile on my face :)
 

TheMeInTeam

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I believe Wiz already answered that one actually :) he doesn´t agree with that being the case... Can´t remember why, but it made sense and put a smile on my face :)

Please link it or tell me the thread title to search it. I've never seen this answer and wonder what it is. He did confirm (quickly) that revanchism only applies to lost territory in the first thread it was mentioned, but that's of little concern when the resulting truce time allows you to outexpand the damage 5 to ten times over.

Obviously he also doesn't agree that large/most power nations don't need buffs since we've seen 15 year truces, primitive ship nerfs, revanchism, and removal of size scaling for ws cost. Such changes are not rational unless your goal is to buff the strongest nations or nerf the weaker ones to create a larger relative strength gap. The one thing that would keep diplomacy meaningful throughout the game, non-linear marginal utility of development, is not something that's been given much serious discussion. Essentially this game is designed to reward...and PROTECT...mega-blobs. I'm okay with challenge, not so good with a mitigation of risk. If failure were a realistic possibility in the end-game like it is early on, we'd see fewer players claim end-game is boring as the same repetitive motions while rolling is the thing generally cited as boring.

Blob shielding is not going to make 1650+ more engaging.
 
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Quaade

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Please link it or tell me the thread title to search it. I've never seen this answer and wonder what it is. He did confirm (quickly) that revanchism only applies to lost territory in the first thread it was mentioned, but that's of little concern when the resulting truce time allows you to outexpand the damage 5 to ten times over.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ev-diary-september-17th.882162/#post-19948644
Something to do with, the timer going away so you essentially would be left with less provinces, the feature... as it sounds... Are used to get back up on the feet, and thus might fade away swiftly...But whether it can be used to gain other lands faster... perhaps, but he seem confident that this is a stupid way to go... Someone will try it, then we will know :)

Would rather have revancism count due to WS, so if your about to lose you get the bonus according to how low WS are, if you manage to make a white peace the modifier goes away, if you manage to turn the war, you lose the modifier but the enemy gets it instead. The peace being made would then decide who got the modifier, since it goes to the loser. This is part of my plans to rework peacedeals :) they should rather be made at 50 % and be satisfied, rather than going for the 100 %, having revanchism there, might be good thing for a losing nation, since the extra income and manpower might be enough to turn the war aroung, thus making peace before this comes into effect, say 50 % would make them more usefull also for small nations...

Obviously he also doesn't agree that large/most power nations don't need buffs since we've seen 15 year truces, primitive ship nerfs, revanchism, and removal of size scaling for ws cost. Such changes are not rational unless your goal is to buff the strongest nations or nerf the weaker ones to create a larger relative strength gap. The one thing that would keep diplomacy meaningful throughout the game, non-linear marginal utility of development, is not something that's been given much serious discussion. Essentially this game is designed to reward...and PROTECT...mega-blobs. I'm okay with challenge, not so good with a mitigation of risk. If failure were a realistic possibility in the end-game like it is early on, we'd see fewer players claim end-game is boring as the same repetitive motions while rolling is the thing generally cited as boring.

I´m currently working on a lot of reworks, just wrote a rework on CB this day over in suggestions, adding more historical accuracy, while making the game more even for smaller nations. Put simply, allies are rarely used, wars are with the two parties, unless special cases play in, like common interest, relations or promises made. Splitting the CB into minor and major, where minor would mostly be for two, think Venetian-Otto, most of these wars had no allies, those that were, were from common interest or promises to support later.

Here the kicker for the small nations... As of now, when venice want to attack Otto, Otto can call it´s allies, but you have difficulty calling 1, pretty uneven then. But using the minor trade CB, you actually can go to war against Otto alone, perhaps you promised spain some provinces or something else, so he can join. Anyway, this would actually be more evenmatched, even if venice attacked alone, it would still be way easier than defeating Otto and the 4 allies :)
 

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Something to do with, the timer going away so you essentially would be left with less provinces, the feature... as it sounds... Are used to get back up on the feet, and thus might fade away swiftly...But whether it can be used to gain other lands faster... perhaps, but he seem confident that this is a stupid way to go... Someone will try it, then we will know :)

Alright, nothing new then for me unfortunately. While you usually wouldn't farm revanchism, you could use it to basically insta-dip out of coalition wars, and just keep going w/o any coalition war being a legitimate threat. Coupled with a truce break setup this could be viable potentially. It wouldn't be the first time that something unexpected caught the developers by surprise in terms of tactics :).
 

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Alright, nothing new then for me unfortunately. While you usually wouldn't farm revanchism, you could use it to basically insta-dip out of coalition wars, and just keep going w/o any coalition war being a legitimate threat. Coupled with a truce break setup this could be viable potentially. It wouldn't be the first time that something unexpected caught the developers by surprise in terms of tactics :).
That... might actually be right and possible... But not if they listens to me about CB, allies and truces ;-)

EDIT: Yeah... Last yeah post release, there were some stuff, that´s how I remember it, that seemed odd the devs hadn´t though about and QA hadn´t caught, since it was pretty game-breaking
 

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Interesting. I didn't know that about the failed Hungarian-Polish crusade. Maybe then..... there could be a 'get out of jail' card IF the Pope decides to have one last crack at the Turk a few years later. The Papal Action 'crusade' is useful as an exploit, but doesn't really incentivise anyone else to join in. The Papacy had lost a lost of sway by then, but was still powerful beyond it's means as a purely economic and military power.

On a side note, I took back Constantinople as Venice last night. It had only been in the Ottoman's possession for a couple of years and had already become Sunni Turkish! In real life it was still predominantly Greek in the 19th century.


Constantinople becomes sunni and turkish through the move capital decisief which Also adds a bunch off base tax, production and Manpower
 

Quaade

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Interesting. I didn't know that about the failed Hungarian-Polish crusade. Maybe then..... there could be a 'get out of jail' card IF the Pope decides to have one last crack at the Turk a few years later. The Papal Action 'crusade' is useful as an exploit, but doesn't really incentivise anyone else to join in. The Papacy had lost a lost of sway by then, but was still powerful beyond it's means as a purely economic and military power.

The pope did have some influence towards war against Ottoman, but usually other relations or concerns were much more pressing, mainly due to the closer infighting of the italian states. He did however, if only vocally, show his support for Albania and visited them some times to show it... He did also negotiate spanish support for Venetian-Ottoman war, where he funded some of Spains ships and men while making Venice promise their aid against Barbary state. To this he even instituted the "holy league" to join the war on venetian side, which were comprised of three italian states including the papal.
 

Maldazar

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As a superpower 1.14 will be super beneficial allowing england France and the ottomans to grow exponentially however starts like Byzantium will become incredibly hard unless you manage to become siege leader for all sieges though diplomatic feedback and making important provinces will help the end result will be basileus(thankfully got this 1.13) Gothic invasion Albania or Iberia and a number of other achievements will become extremely hard to get is this intended or not? And if it is why?
So what you are saying is that small nations are harder to play that superpowers....? Isn't that kind of obvious...?
 
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Politic Revolutionnaire

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So what you are saying is that small nations are harder to play that superpowers....? Isn't that kind of obvious...?
my point was compared to 1.12 and 1.13 gameplay is being lost due to the way alliances work now(or soon at least) which will present a larger ability gap between france and byzantium
 

Quaade

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my point was compared to 1.12 and 1.13 gameplay is being lost due to the way alliances work now(or soon at least) which will present a larger ability gap between france and byzantium
It doesn´t make it harder for smaller nations as a design, it makes alliances work better and more logical... Remind me again when France allied every little pesky nation if not solely to have an excuse to go to war? It was certainly not the case that could happen now, making allies with Byz to become their large attack dog.

Alliances and wars were made and fought out of common interest, alliances were even rarely used since the common interest were seldom there. Most time it happened it was cases like France-England-Spain who saw the war as an excuse to make war with either of them, whichever they were bitter rivals with at the time (since that changed only a couply of times ;-) )
 

GC13

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Come to think of it, why do big powers in EU4 ally weaker ones anyway? You could just as easily guarantee their independence, or if it's one person's expansion you're worried about you could just warn them. I know when I'm looking for a dance partner, I pay the small powers next door to my enemy no mind; all I'm interested in are great powers.
 

Politic Revolutionnaire

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Come to think of it, why do big powers in EU4 ally weaker ones anyway? You could just as easily guarantee their independence, or if it's one person's expansion you're worried about you could just warn them. I know when I'm looking for a dance partner, I pay the small powers next door to my enemy no mind; all I'm interested in are great powers.
AI difficulty because paradox does not want to make the AI smart so that noobs dont complain that they get rekt and they dont want to make actual difficulty levels
 
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TheMeInTeam

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So what you are saying is that small nations are harder to play that superpowers....? Isn't that kind of obvious...?

The problem isn't that, but rather that the game is repeatedly granting superpowers extra special get-out-of-jail-free cards on top of the base reality that they're a strong nation. Babying the nation that's already winning creates a rather poor environment. Usually unstable equilibrium is something you seek to balance against, not double-down on exacerbating.
 
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ywxiao

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The problem isn't that, but rather that the game is repeatedly granting superpowers extra special get-out-of-jail-free cards on top of the base reality that they're a strong nation. Babying the nation that's already winning creates a rather poor environment. Usually unstable equilibrium is something you seek to balance against, not double-down on exacerbating.

Just look at how Ottoman defied DDRjake's attempts to bankrupt it, you can't just 100% WS someone and forever eat them for free now.
It makes blobbing a little harder, but not too much more of a challenge than before, just have to up your game a bit.

This is also nice in terms of AI to AI interaction, you won't repeatedly see Muscowy being eaten by Kazan, Sibir, Perm, etc. after just one disastrous war( at least I hope). It's fine that minor power can take provinces and start to grow, but it should not be an easy path to blobbing without any resistance.

OPM may not benefit so much from revanchism, but it's also really easy to revive minors when you win a war against those who annexed them. On the other hand it's nearly impossible to beat Muscovy out of a blobbed Novgorod Russia, or get Austria to release Hungary after they get inherited.