1.14 - Patch Note Excerpts - Part 3

[MaXimillion]

That was not what I am complaining about.... There need to be a sort of limit on how quickly AI can push -50% warscore and spam stab-hit

Why? It's already subject to all the same limitations that stop a player from getting to 50% warscore and taking what they want.

 

[Quaade]

I have been in some situations where the length of war and total military strength is in my favor. Yet AI will still manage to -1 stab hit with a bad peace deal while you are unseiging stuff and moping up after someone white peace with you. It is quite rare but does happen and that 5 year timer or something else need to keep AI from stab in a close tied war.

I have never had a stab hit due to peace deals... actually thought it was new...

Also... doesn´t they have cooldown period for deals?

 

[Tavior]

Soo... you are actually losing the war, managing to get a peace out with an ally, then you get the stab hit because you lost enough battles for 40 % AND you lost a few forts...

I don´t see how you should be allowed to keep the war going? You should have focused on winning more battles and not losing forts, instead you focused on one enemy instead and left one front open to be sieged... In all fairness, you lost the war and should be forced to make peace. You should simple have done a better job protecting your land...

Also, the stab hit seems to be triggered when AI would accept, could be that AI wouldn´t accept in the case that you and your allies could win the war... Remember seeing a modifier that sounded like they knew they had the upper hand or could bring the war around, making it impossible for me to make peace on par with WS... don´t think it´s war over just because you lost by 50 %, if AI would think it could still win.

But it does require a change of tactic... One must actually defend both fronts instead of letting it fall in order remove allies and take the provinces you want with 100 % WS... Again, like this impact if this is the case, makes little sense that you can simply ignore the warleader totally

Have you ever play Muscovy before? If not I will go over a few important points. First off they have 3 vassal right off the bat and can easily get two more (tver and ryzan). They have at least 4 major front to worry about and have to be careful about where and what to commit to. Especially since they have no allies at all, not strong ones that is. Since those 3 vassal' armies without becoming march have small armies which can easily stack wipe doing something silly and cost you warscore.

So to wage war effectively you need to make sure you get that warscore quickly. Sometime the hordes WILL surprise you with a wardec even at full manpower while waging a war in the north in Novogord and pull in powerhouses like Timurid before imploding themselves.

The forts change are actually a quite tiny nerf, as opposite having a fort everywhere before, to Muscovy since they are poor and need to cover lot of ground and have that sweet extra 2% attrition during winter nearly everywhere. So ideally you would want to let your enemies siege while you pursuit other objectives or just save your manpower.

 

[Tavior]

I have never had a stab hit due to peace deals... actually thought it was new...

Also... doesn´t they have cooldown period for deals?

Cooldown is one month max, same one month cooldown on making another deal with same country you have, depending on the distance and diplomat travel time.

Nope the stab hit has been around a LONG time.

 

[SignedName]

Wait, can AI still dishonor defensive CTA or do they not get called into the war if they would do that?

 

[Wizzington]

Wait, can AI still dishonor defensive CTA or do they not get called into the war if they would do that?

Yes they can still dishonor automatic defensive CTAs.

 

[Tavior]

Why? It's already subject to all the same limitations that stop a player from getting to 50% warscore and taking what they want.

Same restriction yes. Different restriction from before. 5 year timer or 100% prevent AI from making deals that can -1 stab hit is the old restriction.

Now? Only 50% warscore is required as far I know without the timer which means that stab hit can come much sooner.

I have yet to play with this new restriction but I am afraid this change may ending up as one of those "bad change for SP to enforce something in MP only".

 

[Quaade]

Have you ever play Muscovy before? If not I will go over a few important points. First off they have 3 vassal right off the bat and can easily get two more (tver and ryzan). They have at least 4 major front to worry about and have to be careful about where and what to commit to. Especially since they have no allies at all, not strong ones that is. Since those 3 vassal' armies without becoming march have small armies which can easily stack wipe doing something silly and cost you warscore.

So to wage war effectively you need to make sure you get that warscore quickly. Sometime the hordes WILL surprise you with a wardec even at full manpower while waging a war in the north in Novogord and pull in powerhouses like Timurid before imploding themselves.

The forts change are actually a quite tiny nerf, as opposite having a fort everywhere before, to Muscovy since they are poor and need to cover lot of ground and have that sweet extra 2% attrition during winter nearly everywhere. So ideally you would want to let your enemies siege while you pursuit other objectives or just save your manpower.

I´ve played muscovy, even played Novgorod without allying Poland... Never run into this issue, and has been having wars with multiple fronts, but never had I let one front rip open like that... But really... If you lose that many battles during the war and lose that many forts... I would say the war is lost, even if you manage to peace out...

Hopefully AI logic has been improved too, so that when you manage to peace one out, and thus have gained the upper hand de facto but not in reality, you could prevent the stab hit. But wouldn´t want it to be able just because you´re even sided now, not when you did so poorly in the war...

Perhaps just adjust your tactics a little

 

[Tavior]

I´ve played muscovy, even played Novgorod without allying Poland... Never run into this issue, and has been having wars with multiple fronts, but never had I let one front rip open like that... But really... If you lose that many battles during the war and lose that many forts... I would say the war is lost, even if you manage to peace out...

Hopefully AI logic has been improved too, so that when you manage to peace one out, and thus have gained the upper hand de facto but not in reality, you could prevent the stab hit. But wouldn´t want it to be able just because you´re even sided now, not when you did so poorly in the war...

Perhaps just adjust your tactics a little

That one time it was declaring as Muscovy vs Kazan and Timurid. Timurid usually implode by this timeframe and TI was still covering them. So I was taking a heavy risk not knowing but I just hit a new tactic upgrade.

I manage to push Timurid in about 4 years or so. Nobody else wardec which was quite amusing. But this was with the old forts system everywhere. I had to unsiege about 6 or 7 provinces and I already had kazan on the run with low morale but the minus 40% was still there plus those provinces. As soon 5 year timer came around it was just -1 stab after -1 stab until I got it under 50%. They were out of manpower and money and refuse to just gave up. At that time I was quite big and could afford to take my time but the stab was bad because I had a 0/2/4 or something Ruler and I just recently cored all of Novogorod and couldn't progress either admin tech or idea. At the time I was going to just feed my vassal as I had no other options.

 

[Quaade]

That one time it was declaring as Muscovy vs Kazan and Timurid. Timurid usually implode by this timeframe and TI was still covering them. So I was taking a heavy risk not knowing but I just hit a new tactic upgrade.

You took a risk and it didn´t pay out, you gambled on Tim to implode which is a safe bet, but this time it didn´t so it begs to differ. Perhaps you should have waited a bit but understand the gamble, might have done it too, just might have done differently in the war

I manage to push Timurid in about 4 years or so. Nobody else wardec which was quite amusing. But this was with the old forts system everywhere. I had to unsiege about 6 or 7 provinces and I already had kazan on the run with low morale but the minus 40% was still there plus those provinces. As soon 5 year timer came around it was just -1 stab after -1 stab until I got it under 50%. They were out of manpower and money and refuse to just gave up. At that time I was quite big and could afford to take my time but the stab was bad because I had a 0/2/4 or something Ruler and I just recently cored all of Novogorod and couldn't progress either admin tech or idea. At the time I was going to just feed my vassal as I had no other options.

yeah... the old system were bad at that... Don´t know if the new is better though, but haven´t had issues with stab hit... Perhaps I´m simply overly careful when DoW

 

[Monkbel]

- Centers of Reformation can now only appear in temperate provinces with 10 or more development.

Why temperate only?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

What is the stability hit threshold between players for sub-50% war scores now? Was that changed? Way back in the day any offer with > 40% war score differential would stab hit, then a patch around AoW times changed it to ~26%-WE of losing side. Is it now possible to force terms on nations you're blowing up by sending them favorable deals?

 

[Wizzington]

The differential no longer matters.

 

[Tavior]

You took a risk and it didn´t pay out, you gambled on Tim to implode which is a safe bet, but this time it didn´t so it begs to differ. Perhaps you should have waited a bit but understand the gamble, might have done it too, just might have done differently in the war

yeah... the old system were bad at that... Don´t know if the new is better though, but haven´t had issues with stab hit... Perhaps I´m simply overly careful when DoW

Yes it was a risky gamble but I have since gotten much better. I even manage to at a few point take on kazan and Timurid because nogai didn't want to share military access in the same situation since the introduction of rivals. I have learned much since then.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I jumped the gun concluding a stealth-improvement then, since the stealth change of removing the differential was done in tandem. We're still going to see nations with 40-50% war score refusing to white peace despite having almost no remaining forces then, which to me overshadows any possible utility of this concept in SP. I will still say this is an improvement for forcing MP terms, but it's a lateral move in SP.

 

[Tavior]

I jumped the gun concluding a stealth-improvement then, since the stealth change of removing the differential was done in tandem. We're still going to see nations with 40-50% war score refusing to white peace despite having almost no remaining forces then, which to me overshadows any possible utility of this concept in SP. I will still say this is an improvement for forcing MP terms, but it's a lateral move in SP.

Not sure what you meant by "stealth-improvement" and "overshadows any possible utility of this concept in SP." especially when AI will and can spam the -1 stab hit ASAP.

My question remain. Is the 5 year timer (also known as length of war modifier) still in effect or was that taken out?

 

[doktorstick]

If you are -50% or lower and the enemy offers you a deal the AI would accept in your place you have to accept or take a stab hit.

How do I know if the AI would accept the peace deal offered the player?

 

[Wizzington]

It'll tell you that rejecting gives a stab hit.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Not sure what you meant by "stealth-improvement" and "overshadows any possible utility of this concept in SP." especially when AI will and can spam the -1 stab hit ASAP.

My question remain. Is the 5 year timer (also known as length of war modifier) still in effect or was that taken out?

No doubt LoW is still in. Until patch 1.12, you could send stabhit offers to the AI. That was taken out with nothing to replace it, allowing nonsense like an AI with 2 regiments and -44% to refuse a 1% peace deal without penalty.

Patch 1.14 does nothing to address that nonsense outcome unfortunately. My initial take on Wiz's response was that if an offer would stabhit the AI, it would just accept. However, at this stage it's the worst of both worlds; AI can stubbornly refuse with impunity on nonsense modifiers like LoW and SoA, even if it's individually getting roasted alive, and in contrast the AI can stabhit the player in situations that would not necessarily correlate to the warscore, albeit rarely. Presumably, players getting blown up can also temporarily refuse on these same modifiers, which doesn't seem to improve gameplay.

My initial impression of "stealth improvement" was contingent on the assumption that there wasn't yet-another undocumented patch change that overpowered any possibility of improvement in that regard. It caused my initial impression of this patch overall to be quite far on the good side; seeing that this was yanked leaves it still-better than 1.12 and 1.13, but much less impressive. Peace deals are a serious sore spot in the game right now and forcing nations out with favorable offers (rather than stabhitting a stubborn AI to -3) would have been a great; protecting war score in the opening years would finally have MEANT something.

But now the utility of protecting war score is irrelevant for a few years. Mandated waiting is the worst facet of EU IV. It's what gutted Mesoamerica, and being stuck in a war for the sole reason that it hasn't gone on long enough...even if ending on favorable terms is to the losing side's advantage and despite that Wiz gave new players advice to end wars sooner...is a significant detriment to the game.

I had my hopes up because I thought we finally had something that wasn't so abusive as a -3stab spamming the AI, but would nevertheless serve as a potential countermeasure to those nonsense modifiers. Turns out we have more of the same in SP and a decent improvement to MP only, which is a letdown.

 

[Wizzington]

I jumped the gun concluding a stealth-improvement then, since the stealth change of removing the differential was done in tandem. We're still going to see nations with 40-50% war score refusing to white peace despite having almost no remaining forces then, which to me overshadows any possible utility of this concept in SP. I will still say this is an improvement for forcing MP terms, but it's a lateral move in SP.

There is no stealth change, the mechanic was overhauled as explained in the changelog. You jumping to conclusions does not mean anything was hidden.