1.11 -- Buggy, but trying harder.

[Commander666]

BELOW: Screen shot for the Commander666 (C666) game:

Ok.

Thank you for posting your screen shot. But then writing a post explaining how all values are different than shown leaves one wondering.

BELOW: v1.11 Default AI Screenshot: PLEASE CLARIFY IF YOU HAVE BITTER PEACE. When was that?

Please note that ic on repairs is actually 6x1.57, the other 5 slides need to be reduced by 1.57.

It doesn't make any sense as needed repairs is shown as 36.20 and you giving it 1.57
"6x1.57" does not fit. NEVER MIND. Maybe next time try using auto so you don't have such discrepancies like "everything needs reducing by 1.57". Trust you to present the non-obvious.

After that it is:
101.46 ic on cg

Your CG is 10ic higher than mine and that is counted as a deduction from the higher effective you show as regards determining what "true available IC" really is.

401.32 ic on producion

Your production is higher, of course. Wether or not your total military has matched mine at this date remains to be seen. There are many problems with the method you used (base icd to determine value of military units). I will discuss in next post tomorrow; and present my estimate of who is ahead.

102.46 ic on supplies

Well, it shows that you need zero supplies. Did you forget to run the game to midnight so it could register everything? You should redo your screen shot, and do it properly.

49.34 ic on reinforcements

Are you still at war with the SU? Why your reinforcements so high? Getting bombed from the British Isles? Yah, you need a lot more INT. My INT are now ineffective unless I take Cuba and build air bases there.

0 ic at upgrades

That was the advantage of picking this date for comparison.

9.42 ic to repairs.

No comment except you should do screen shots properly. In the case of it being AI you need to play it a day or two and "BALANCE THE GAME".

• You have only $46 left, yet will lose $333.6 tomorrow. That is nuts. Get the sliders set properly before doing prt scr. While AI does not pay for research, AFAIK, there is zero value in presenting a screen shot where you are "cheating" the CG slider as much as you are WHEN YOU HAVE NO MONEY STOCKPILED TO DO ANY DEFICIT FINANCING.
• Your Needed CG is 137.38 but you only giving it 103.89. The shortfall of 33.49 ic needs to be deducted from your ic going into production to give true figure of what you can construct. That would be 402.82 - 33.49 = only 368.93 ic that can be maintained on construction. That means that "loss of gearing" is currently applicable to 47.29 ic of the bottom serials. Not good!

The default AI spends 50 ic for german factories, 10 ic for the austrian factory, 9x2 ic for radar stations, 16x4 ic for coastal forts, 4x2 ic for infra and 3 ic for synthetic oil, 5x10.1 ic for Int1940, 1x14.4 ic for RocketInt1941, 4x16.5 ic for Arm1941, 2x13.4 ic for Nav1941, 5x5.7 ic for DD1941, 5x4.9 ic for CL1941, 1x2.3 ic for SS1938, 1x6.8 ic for Mar1940, 2x6.1 ic for CV1941, 2x8.7 for SHBB1938 and 13.7 ic for Tac1940. That totals to 416.1 ic, so (apart from rounding) i got every item listed.

No comment here but quoted it to get it moved forward as we have turned new page. Might need it later.

Plan is to next have me explain why I will use the method I intend to for figuring out who really has the most military at this time. Please understand, my aim is not to beat you but to discover what is the true date that your program passes my program (when the AI has greater total military than me). But that needs to be done while being aware of the skews that exist with whatever method is used.

Unfortunately you did not take my advice nor fulfill my request (although I do appreciate you having computed that you think the AI is 12% ahead).

By this accounting AI has as a 12.77% greater military at 1942/02/30. The growth of your military compared to Barbarossa seems a bit dim. In the accounting from then i made many assumption that were too generous like SpArt instead of Art for the Infantry. The accounting for 1942 should be more accurate.

"NO, Pang". Your accounting is very inaccurate because it considers a theoretical "base icd" which is not relevant to Feb 30, '42 …. the date of comparison. While it might be the fairest method you know, you can not deny that a certain skew exists with trying to apply base icd value of units to a situation of "Who has greater military at Feb/42?"

If we had identical military, the answer would be easy.
If you had a total of one more division than me (and all else identical) the determination of fair value for that one extra unit would be, "What will I have to spend to gain that unit so then we would be equal?"

Because we are doing this in 1942, the only truly applicable way is to compute using my game for 1942, or use the AI's game for 1942 - but definitely only use one game (or the other) to calculate all units that are different . That prevents any skew happening between calculating your extra units, and mine using different reference.

That type of skew you avoided with your method because you did all as to same reference. Good. I will avoid it also when I do my calculations tomorrow. Show you then.

But the skew you have not avoided is the skew that exists between the applicability of "What is base icd relevance" and "What is actual fair icd value on Feb 02 '42 for any unit(s) which one side has more of?

And - UNFORTUNATELY - whatever the skew, you maximized it by ignoring my excellent advise to first cancel out all same-same units; and insisting on calculating all the units of both armies to so accumulate maximum skew.

Back to "If I have 100 soldiers and you have 100 identical year/model soldiers", the 200 soldiers can be cancelled out to determine that the armies are same total military …. and do so with zero skew.

And if you have 101, and I only 100, then it should be the calculation of the icd value of your extra ONE soldier to determine how much more military you have. Whatever skew (by whatever method) it is limited to applying only to one soldier. So it will be pretty accurate.

But you with your professed superior math knowledge than me with my abacus and "number crunching" tendencies have skewed your findings the very most you could. And THAT is why I am not accepting them.

Good night. It's 4:30 AM. Maybe I should start saying "Good morning!"

Note: Views 2412

 

[Commander666]

CALCULATING WHO HAS MORE TOTAL MILITARY AT 1942/02/30

This method considers only the differences between the armies of C666 and Pang AI to diminish effect of any skew. In cases of C666 having less units than the AI, it calculates what it would cost C666 to build those units at the said time, and applies retooling if applicable, and further uses the correct number of lines (each with retooling) so that no line runs longer than ~2 years. The icd so calculated is a negative for C666 (GREEN).

As regards units where the AI has less than C666, it calculates the cost of those missing units using the same production tab as above so there is no skew from using different references. However, in this case the icd so calculated is a C666 credit (YELLOW).

Example A) Pang AI has one less NAV than C666. Pang AI earlier built 3 NAVs, so no re-tooling will apply. Simply the cost of 1 NAV x days to develop. No air units have brigades, ESC/FTR are calculated separately.

Example B: C666 has 28 ARM less than AI. However, C666 did earlier have 2 lines running to build the 27 ARM he has. Two re-toolings have already been paid. However, those re-tooling really only cover the 27 ARM that were built earlier, and the further 28 ARM needed to gain parity with the AI in ~2 years would need at least 4 new parallel lines of 7 units each (28) which construct in 708 days (plus retooling of 80 days). So 4 re-tooling costs will be charged. All army units include brigades as indicated.

Example C: The AI is missing many ship types, and none were ever constructed - so retooling applies. The exception is subs where the AI is missing 32 flotilla of SS-4. Appropriate would be 4 lines x 8 units =32 which would construct in 753 days (plus re-tooling). The subs that AI did construct (~18) clearly used up any re-tooling that was paid earlier. Ships come with standard brigades starting with FC - except DDs that come with ASW. Subs have no brigades.

Basically, my method does not worry about getting precise every unit/brigade detail, but instead makes a succinct presentation which is logical and readable. Numbers are rounded off whenever multiplication occurs.



DIFFERENCES in UNITs: Presented as C666 / Pang AI = credit to? Yellow = C666 has more , Green = Pang AI has more

INF: 65 / 46 = 19 INF/art …...…..... 1 line of19 units is (80+855 days) = 935 days x 8.0 ic = ……..…..+8,415 icd
CAV: 15/1 = 14 CAV/ac …...………. 1 line of14 units is (80+608 days) = 688 days x 8.5 ic = ……...... +5,848 icd
MOT: 14/104 = 90 MOT/SpArt .. 6 line of 15 units is (80+727days)= 807days x13.7 ic x 6 = .... -66,335 icd
LtARM: 3/0 = 3 LtARM/SpArt …… 1 line of 3 units is (80+319 days) = 399 days x 16.2 ic = ….….. +6,464 icd
ARM: 27/55 = 28 ARM/SpArt …... 4 line of 7 units is (80+709 days) = 789days x20.2 ic x 4 = … -63,751 icd
PAR: 3/0 = 3 PAR/art …...………….... 1 line of 3 units is (80+431 days) = 511 days x 10.8 ic = ..……. +5,519 icd
MAR: 6/1 = 5 MAR/art …...…………. * no re-tooling * 1 line of 3 units is 390 days x9.5 ic = ….…..... +3,705 icd
MTN: 18/1 = 17 MTN/eng …...….... 2 line of 8 units is (80+716 days) = 796 days x 7.4 ic x 2 = ... +11,781 icd
GAR: 80/0 = 80 GAR/mp …...….…….4 line of 20unit is (80+566 days) = 646 days x 5.1 ic x 4 = ... +13,178 icd
HQ: 5/6 = 1 HQ/aa …...……………….. * no re-tooling as C666 built earlier* 160 days x 17.4 = …….... -2,784 icd

NET DIFFERENCE FOR ARMY ………………………………………………….……….……… C666 is behind: -77,960 icd



BC: 5/4 = 1 BC-4/brigaded ………… 1 line of 1 units is 80 + 296 days = 376 days x 5.8 ic = ……..… +2,181 icd
CA: 5/3 = 2 CA-4/brigaded ………… 1 line of 2 units is 80 + 211 days = 391 days x 5.8 ic = ………... +2,268 icd
CL: 19/5 = 14 CL-4/brigaded ……… 2 lines of 7 units is 80+819 days = 899 days x 5.8 ic x 2 =….+10,428 icd
DD: 15/3 = 12 DD-4/asw ……………. 2 lines of 6 units is 80+618 days = 698 days x 5.0 ic x 2 = ….. +6,980 icd
SS: 53/ 21 = 32 SS-4 ……………………. 4 lines of 8 units is 80+753 days = 833 days x 2.4 ic x 4 = .….. +7,997 icd
TP: 17/0 = 17 TP ………………….……… 1 line of 17 units is 80+695 days = 775 days x 3.8 ic = …....…. +2,712 icd

NET DIFFERENCE FOR NAVY ………………………….……………………….…….…….....… C666 is ahead: +32,566 icd



FTR: 12/0 = 12 FTR ………… 1 line of 12 units is 80 + 886 days = 966 days x 12.2 ic = ………….…... +11,785 icd
INT: 26/46 = 20 INT………… 2 line of 10 units is 740 days x 10.6 ic = ………………………….......………..… -7,844 icd
NOTE: No re-tooling on INT as C666 finishes 2 lines this week, which would just continue.
CAS: 8/11 = 3 CAS ………… 1 line of 3 units is 328 days x 5.8 ic = …………………………...........................… -1,902 icd
NOTE: No re-tooling on CAS as C666 had earlier line which would have continued.
TAC: 12/8 = 4 TAC ………… 1 line of 4 units is 438 days x 12.0 ic = ………..............................................… +5,256 icd
Note: No re-tooling on TAC for the AI as it has new line constructing (valid deduction?).
NAV: 4/3 = 1 NAV ………… 1 line of 1 unit is 127 days x 11.4 ic = ………..................................................… +1,448 icd
Note: No re-tooling on NAV for the AI as it is constructing these from earlier.
TRA: 6/0 = 6 TRA ………… 1 line of 6 units is 80 + 504 days = 584 days x 20.0 ic = ……..............…… +11,680 icd
ESC: 20/14 = 6 ESC ………… 1 line of 6 units is 504 days x 2.5 ic = ……................................................…… +1,260 icd
Note: No re-tooling on ESC/FTR for the AI as it had lines constructing earlier.

NET DIFFERENCE FOR AIR FORCE ………………………………………...………….……… C666 is ahead: +21,683 icd

GRAND TOTAL OF ALL WEHRMACHT DIFFERENCES:
-77,960 icd
+32,566 icd
+21,683 icd
==============
- 23,711 icd (NOTE: C666 total military is 23,711 icd behind the Pang AI)

DISCUSSION: As I was spending ~300 ic per day on construction, the above represents about 2 1/2 months of construction, so indicating that the AI overtook me in Total Military during December 1941. Relating to Pearl Harbor as a "coincidental date to remember" might be good for me.

However, as there are some inaccuracies in my above regarding certain units that are actually of a lesser model (year) than Pang's, I need to further catch up some upgrading. Without doing the math, I guesstimate that this would result in the AI actually having surpassed me 2 months earlier... or about October,1941.

LESSONS LEARNT: Well, don't take Pang's word for it... on the other hand ...

 

[Pang Bingxun]

PLEASE CLARIFY IF YOU HAVE BITTER PEACE. When was that?

It triggerd at 1941/09/02.

It doesn't make any sense as needed repairs is shown as 36.20 and you giving it 1.57
"6x1.57" does not fit. NEVER MIND. Maybe next time try using auto so you don't have such discrepancies like "everything needs reducing by 1.57".

Those are the sliders set by AI. In the savegame it looks like this:

consumer = 0.1528
supply = 0.1543
production = 0.6044
reinforcement = 0.0743
upgrading = 0.0000

Those are the first 5 sliders. They add up to only 0.9858 times effective ic. The remaining 0.0142 x 664 = 9.4288 ic are for repairs, but that last slider is not saved in the savegame, which leads to this bug occuring when loading a savegame. If you set repairs to 6 ic, save and reload, than ic on repairs will be 1.

Well, it shows that you need zero supplies. Did you forget to run the game to midnight so it could register everything? You should redo your screen shot, and do it properly.

I did do it properly. Did did not interfere with what AI does.

If i run the game for one day as Costa Rica, than Germany shows 90% of daily surpluss to be 11.15$, so the actual surpluss is 12.39$. For supplies it is 7.05/0.9=7.83. So cg are 5.41 ic above need, supplies are 1.31 ic above need.

Why your reinforcements so high? Getting bombed from the British Isles?

It is the inverse. Default AI does not disband or brigade and uses the initial 8 Tac to bomb the british isles. In total their strenght is 695 out of 800 at maximum. Combine this with ESE slightly above 220% and you get some serios ic on reinforcements. Also some naval divisions are reinforcing at slightly above 220% ESE. All land divisions are at full strenght.

"NO, Pang". Your accounting is very inaccurate because it considers a theoretical "base icd" which is not relevant to Feb 30, '42 …. the date of comparison. While it might be the fairest method you know, you can not deny that a certain skew exists with trying to apply base icd value of units to a situation of "Who has greater military at Feb/42?"

The simply truth is is that there is no perfect method and any other method than base icd will be even more of problem.

But you with your professed superior math knowledge than me with my abacus and "number crunching" tendencies have skewed your findings the very most you could. And THAT is why I am not accepting them.

The opposite is true. I tried to find the most objective method i could find and made many assumption in your favour.

This method considers only the differences between the armies of C666 and Pang AI to diminish effect of any skew.

So you create different more severe skews to better suit your preconceptions? This is what i hoped to avoid by using the most neutral method.

Example C: The AI is missing many ship types, and none were ever constructed - so retooling applies.

AI has no initial retooling. AI has a gearing increment of 30% per unit, for humans it is only 5%. For AI brigaded divisions need no more ic than unbrigaded divisions. AI has no expenses on research.

If you want to apply your net difference method, than progress of divisions under construction would need to be accounted for. This is asking for a mess.


Default AI had 539471.67 base icd at 1941/06/22 and 723708.33 base icd at 1942/02/30. You had approximately 641747.5 base icd at 1942/03/04. Using linear approximation default AI reaches 641747.5 base icd 137.67 days after Barbarossa. Rounding up that would be 1941/10/10. But of course at that day your military was stil below this amount of base icd. So maybe somewhen around 1941/08/10 parity would occur. It probably makes little sense to try find a precise date, mid 1941 seems fine enough for me.

 

[Commander666]

It triggerd at 1941/09/02.

My Barbarossa only started a few days after the AI's finished. After taking Moscow a couple weeks later in late September, afterwards I had fun building snow men in the Russian hinterland!

So you create different more severe skews to better suit your preconceptions?.

Well, at least I understood how it is skewed!

If you want to apply your net difference method, than progress of divisions under construction would need to be accounted for. This is asking for a mess.

No, I don't like to apply that. I hate details!

Default AI had 539471.67 base icd at 1941/06/22 and 723708.33 base icd at 1942/02/30. You had approximately 641747.5 base icd at 1942/03/04. Using linear approximation default AI reaches 641747.5 base icd 137.67 days after Barbarossa. Rounding up that would be 1941/10/10.

Hey, that's same date I got using my method. How amazing!

... ... ...I guesstimate that this would result in the AI actually having surpassed me 2 months earlier... or about October,1941.

But of course at that day your military was stil below this amount of base icd. So maybe somewhen around 1941/08/10 parity would occur. It probably makes little sense to try find a precise date, mid 1941 seems fine enough for me.

Late 1941 seems more "fine enough" for me!

 

[Commander666]

NEW GAME with better GERMANY BUILD STRATEGY:

Applying what I learned, next game I would try building IC in all provinces that have 10 or more factories. So that would be Berlin (build 10 new factories, complete Mar 11, '45), Cologne (build 7, June 8, '42), Stuttgart and Dresden (build 3 each, Oct 4, '38). That is already 20 IC (15 IC more than I ever did).

Then the infra would be at the following 18 provinces:
Berlin @ 2x =200% Aug 4, '39 (completes before Danzig for max ESE then)
Cologne @ 2x = 200% Aug 4, '39
Dresden @ 2x = 200% May 21, '41
Stuttgart @ 2x = 200% May 21, '41

Rostock = 200% Jan 30, '41 (ESE Outlet and naval base for max upgrading speed)
Potsdam = 200% Jan 30, '41 (line to Rostock)

Konigsberg = 185% May 26, '41 (ESE for Barbarossa northern flank)
Cottbus = 200% Jan 30, '41 (ESE for Barbarossa southern flank after Polish provinces of Cracow and Przemysl added)
Breslau = 200% Jan 30 '41 (same as above)
Oppeln = 200% Jan 30, '41 (same as above, or can be optional)

Hanover = 200% Jan 31, '41
Essen = 200% Jan 31, '41

Dortmund = 200% Aug 14, '43
Saarbrucken = 170% May 24, '41
Frankfurt = 170% May 24, '41

Leipzig = 200% Jan 30, '41
Nuremberg = 200% Aug 14, '43 (ESE to Italy)
Munich = 200% Aug 14, '43 (ESE to Italy)

The infra constructions total 44 ic in 18 provinces and go far longer than I ever did before. The very good resource provinces all go to 200%.

The following 9 provinces of lower economic value had their "infra at start" cancelled: Bremen, Hamburg, Kassel, Kiel, Magdeburg, Munster, Schweinfurt, Stettin, Wilhelmshaven


OTHER ITEMS BUILDING FROM START:

• BB-4 x 2
• Admiral Graf Spee completes Jan 15, '36 CA line then cancels. (Will make "CA Fleet" of 3 capitals and CL screens.)
• BC-4 x2 (Will make "BC Fleet" of 3 capitals and CL screens)
• one line of DD-2 cancels when first unit completes Feb 15. '36
• other line of DD-2 continues indefinitely. (Upgrade in production after two DD-2 built)
• SS-2 (Upgrade in production after first unit constructed, which combines with existing two SS-2.
• NOTE: The SS-1 is kept as a "training sub" for leader skill gain.
• NOTE: The two DD-1 are kept for "scouts".
• CANCELLED the convoys and convoy escorts because no sense running trans-Atlantic convoys during war.
• ALSO CANCELLED are the forts (some will be built in 3 locations later once Policy changed) and the AA (will build later).

Six TECHS are being tackled at 100% research speed.

• Basic Machine Tools using I.G. Farben
• Agrichemistry using Degussa
• Basic Computers using Heimeseth
• Early CV using Kreigsmarinewerft
• Basic Destroyer using Deutschewerke
• Heavy Submarine using Blohm & Voss

USING v1.09, the above has a 6.6 IC shortfall (keep the BB-4 at bottom) until Rhineland is re-occupied.
Thereafter it is fine; and can lay down 1 line AA.

Conclusion: I don't think I like to try building greater amounts of IC or infra as that would have serious negative impact on the Kriegsmarine. As is, it will be very challenging to not weaken the Luftwaffe - especially the hoped for six TRA.

NOTE: First slider move was towards Hawk Lobby.

06:00 hours January 3rd, 1936 reach Colonge - CHANGE 2 MINISTERS:

• Minister of Security > Rudolf Dids (Consumer Goods Need -10%)
• Armaments Minister > Franz Xaver Swartz (IC +5%, Industrial Research +10%, resources +5%)

RE-OCCUPATION of Rhineland gives slider move to more Hawk Lobby. (That's 2 hawks I got now).

Trades are:

• Denmark, give 6.0 energy for $0.4
• Estonia, give 3.2 energy for $0.2
• Finland, 3.9 energy for 0.8 rare
• Luxembourg, 1.9 energy for 0.2 rare

January 4th, 1936 trades are:

• Greece give 7.5 energy for $0.5
• Latvia accept offer to give 7.1 energy for $0.4

January 5th, 1936 IC = 168/153

• Lay down line of 99 AA

January 6th, 1936 - Trades are:

• Latvia give 1.5 energy for $0.1
• Lithuania give 6.0 energy for $0.4

January 7th, 1936 - Trades are:

• Portugal give 13.5 energy for $0.9
• Switzerland give 0.7 energy for 0.1 rare

Oh my gosh! Forgot to turn down Military Salaries. Now set to $0.90
My troops are moving a few at a time so soon every IC province will have division there. Then I probably do a Policy change. Hum?


January 10th, 1936

• Lay down line of 99 Radar (I'm getting reformed!)

January 12th, 1936 - POLICY CHANGE and other DECISIONS?

I have just enough spare IC to do something and think tackling National Identity first is best as that can give savings on constructions.

• Parochial World View is IC +5% and Infra Construction modifier -5%
  What saving would that get given the screen shots showing my infra builds? 18 provinces for 44 IC.
• Defensive World View is MP growth +10%; and land fort and anti-air constructions -10% But I will only be building level 3 land forts in 3 provinces along Siegfried Line and the single long line of AA can't amount to much savings I think.

I realize that changing away from Frustrated Expansionist Outlook losses the Dissent Growth Rate -20%, but I am not planning on getting much dissent after this. Not doing any advanced slider moves (except maybe some tiny ones giving only small dissent).

How to work this out? Do icd calculation for each province where infra is building and deduct 5%? Completion dates are stated above. But policy change won't be effective until 4 months from now. I think this is a job for a computer!

To my mind, Parochial World View has got to be the best choice for National Identity.

KMS Graf Spee launches in a few days. That'll free up 4.0 ic and I have spare 14.0 ic to put towards dissent reduction.
Like to limit that at only -0.05 dissent per day to not waste too much.

Then when dissent is all gone, I should be able to lay down the line of TACs to increase heavy bombers to 12 units. Next will come 8 CAS. Got to get Basic CAS tech by then. When CAS complete Minister changes to support INT construction. But when do the TRA get built? Guess they need to built be without minister support once I find 26 more IC. Aargh!

End of Post: Views = 2,485

 

[Commander666]

INFRA icd Calculations to decide if switching to Parochial World View is wise:

Change policy January 16th, '39 EFFECTIVE: May 16th, '39

Berlin @ 2x =200% Aug 4, '39 (360 x 3 +79) x 4 = 4,636 icd
Cologne @ 2x = 200% Aug 4, '39 (360 x 3 +79) X 4 = 4,636 icd

Dresden @ 2x = 200% May 21, '41 (360 x 5 + 2) X 4 = 7,208 icd
Stuttgart @ 2x = 200% May 21, '41 (360 x 5 + 2) X 4 = 7,208 icd

Rostock = 200% Jan 30, '41 (360 X 4 + 255) x 2 = 3,390 icd
Potsdam = 200% Jan 30, '41 (360 X 4 + 255) x 2 = 3,390 icd

Konigsberg = 185% May 26, '41 (360 x 5 +9) x 2 = 3,618 icd

Cottbus = 200% Jan 30, '41 (360 X 4 + 255) x 2 = 3,390 icd
Breslau = 200% Jan 30 '41 (360 X 4 + 255) x 2 = 3,390 icd
Oppeln = 200% Jan 30, '41 (360 X 4 + 255) x 2 = 3,390 icd
Hanover = 200% Jan 30, '41 (360 X 4 + 255) x 2 = 3,390 icd
Essen = 200% Jan 30, '41 (360 X 4 + 255) x 2 = 3,390 icd

Dortmund = 200% Aug 14, '43 (360 x 7 +179) x 2 = 5,398 icd

Saarbrucken = 170% May 24, '41 (360 x 5 +7) x 2 = 3,614 icd
Frankfurt = 170% May 24, '41 (360 x 5 +7) x 2 = 3,614 icd

Leipzig = 200% Jan 30, '41 (360 X 4 + 255) x 2 = 3,390 icd

Nuremberg = 200 % Aug 14, '43 (360 x 7 +179) x 2 = 5,398 icd
Munich = 200% Aug 14, '43 (360 x 7 +179) x 2 = 5,398 icd

========================
77,848 icd x 5% = 3,892.4 icd

Switching to Parochial World View will save 3,892 icd. Worth it or not?

Well, a TRA-1 with 1/6 the retooling cost (if building 6 units) is 3,828 icd. It has to be a sensible policy change. Gonna do it!

UPDATE: Jan 16th, '36

• KMS Admiral Graf Spee christened
• New policy is Parochial World View
• Dissent 6%, reducing 0.05/day
• Enough available IC to lay down 1 line of Land Fort construction materials x9 (complete May '38).
• Supplies + 6/day, $ +5.5/day, need to trade off some excess energy.

UPDATE: Feb 28th, '36

• SS-2 completes, have three for wolfpack, upgrade line to SS-3

UPDATE: early March, '36

• The minister changes have come into effect, IC 176/153,
• Put up 1 line of TAC x 4 (complete Dec 13, '37)

UPDATE: March 22nd, '36

• Infra at Berlin and Cologne raises IC by 1, IC = 177/153
• Could put up a line of CAS but don't have the tech
• Start CAS-1937, will be achieved Feb 24, '37 Then try to put up 2 lines CAS-1 (4 builds each = 8 units)
• Currently spare IC of ~5, stock piling $ and supplies

UPDATE: May 15th - 20th, '36

• 1st land fort completes
• Parochial World View policy takes effect, IC 185/155
• Berlin infra goes from completing on Aug 4, '39 to April 14, '39
• Munich infra goes from Aug 14, '43 to completing Dec 12, '42
• Germany is rocking!

NOTE: If Policy change had been to Defensive World View the Landfort construction bonus -10% would be:
last fort completes May 7, ' 38 = 707 days x 5 IC = 3,535 icd less 10% = only saving of 354 icd.
Plus a saving on the very long line of AA. If 10 years = 3,600 days x 3 IC = 10,800 icd less 10% = 1,080 icd. Total saving only 1,434 icd.
Additionally it gave Manpower Growth +10%
But Parochial World View gets IC +5%, so it definitely was the correct choice.



UPDATE: May 21st, '36

• Change Head of Intelligence to Richard Walther Darre, IC +5%

End of Post: Views = 2,523

 

[Commander666]

TRANSPORT PLANES!

Update: June 26, '36:

• Achieved Basic Machine Tools and , with some new infra completed, found the 26.4 IC to put up a line of TRA-1 (x 6 units completes Aug 24, '38). We can worry about paratroopers later.
• Next urgent need are the CL-4 screens or our new capitals launching in a year will be paired with lousy CL-3s. Can probably squeeze that in when the Head of Intelligence becomes effective July 21st and gives the IC +5%.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Well, at least I understood how it is skewed!

Base icd seems to be best neutral measure of the military build up. It even is a good enough measure of the capabilities of the military if everything is brigaded properly. This is where the catch lies. AI does not brigade or disband the initial divisions. But brigades are very cheap compared to their usefulness.

To my mind, Parochial World View has got to be the best choice for National Identity.

I tend to agree. It does of course depend on circumstances. But for your circumstances(near no slider rushing) there is no reasonable doubt. The mali for nonnational territory however can become a concern after Danzig.

 

[Commander666]

Base icd seems to be best neutral measure of the military build up.

I agree with you and - more importantly - would like to express that I feel fortunate to know you so that I, and many others in Forum, can continue to learn some of the more difficult concepts in this classic game. THANK YOU for all your help, participation and knowledge to have resolved the question which was actually poised by MJF. That question was, "Why was his Wehrmacht so small compared to mine?".

Well, after doing numerous "number crunching" comparisons with other people's army builds against my own, I became fairly convinced it was because of the "economic plan" you have developed. That was followed by more serious attempts to arrive at better figures with you doing 2 detailed comparisons, and me also 2... but using a different method.

How fantastic we more or less arrived at same date - October 1941 (if we take one statement you made on that and another I made where I factored in upgrading differences). Of course, the precise date where the default AI in v1.11 surpassed my total military in v1.07 would vary depending - as you rightly point out - where the catch lies.

ANYWAY, past comparisons now dealt with, for me the long discussion was a very good learning exercise and resulted in me changing to more factories constructing at start; and some other details you may have noticed - such as not pushing too hard on the dissent reduction slider in AoD.

Anyway, thanks again for your contribution to this thread and the learning experience that is continuing to happen because of ongoing detailed analysis of basic game facts and build strategies. It would be great if more of the viewers would leave some comments - good or bad; they all have merit, I trust.

I tend to agree. It does of course depend on circumstances. But for your circumstances(near no slider rushing) there is no reasonable doubt. The mali for nonnational territory however can become a concern after Danzig.

I really agree. If it was other player building many more land forts and planning to do a real Atlantic Wall with a string of coastal forts, plus massive AA in Western Europe, then with the most splendid MP +10% it is clear that Defensive World View would be better.

In fact, I have a suggestion to make it an even more obvious no-brainer: "Why not include construction bonus of -10% on radar sites?" That would greatly help mitigate their comparatively long build time.

To conclude, one more "thank you" for your past insights.... and hope you will pursue the new discussion posts I have published to make comments on how Germany's build strategy might be further improved. Hopefully, there are many things that could use your comments in the continuing detailed recording for my Germany doing a new (for me) build strategy. I would characterize it as "medium IC construction". But as regards your "maximum IC construction" strategy and the effect that has on the Kriegsmarine, I would still say:

Rots of ruck!

 

[Commander666]

Continuing the Wehrmacht Build Scheme - July 17th, 1936 NEWS FLASH: WAR IN SPAIN!

The SCW started on usual date; and with usual countries intervening. We even brought half the Kriegsmarine out to surround Spain and so better watch the action. Franco seems to be doing well.

When Germany got back the off-map IC and supplies on Aug 24, '36, we were able to put up a line of CL-4 . The plan is to build at least 9 of the Leipzig Class light cruisers so all the Model 4 capital ships have a CL-4 screen. That will replace the existing CL-3 screens to serve elsewhere with 2 joining the Baltic Fleet BC-1s (same range) and perhaps the other two CL-3s might be used as picket boats. As regards the KMS Emden CL-2, she will run with the DD-2 ASW group currently forming.

We also managed to be able to give a major trade needed by Franco: 21.0 supplies for receiving $4.2 Our economy seems to be doing well, and IC is steadily climbing.

PS: Just wondering what is the supply consumption of ships and aircraft at rest during peacetime?

UPDATE: Sept 27, '36

Today the last DD-2 completed; and we upgraded the line in production. Germany's first Hunter Killer group will eventually be getting outfitted with ASW brigades and a SP is planned for KMS Emden.

As regards the "group picture", that's just so I don't have to memorize them. No further ministers need change for now:

• Chief of Staff stays until 12-15 Semi-motorized Cavalry divisions are done.
• Goring stays until the 4 TACs and 8 CAS are done.
• Ribbentrop and Donitz not here yet.

But it is just a bit over 3 months to next slider move; and I am wondering what might be best? I am tempted to go for Free Market. More money from CG, less production cost, and faster upgrading are the hallmarks of a military powerhouse. No need to slide to Central Planning now that the IC from the new factories is compensating that. Going towards full Free Market until I'm stopped by ideology might be the best moves for the next few years?


UPDATE: January 1st, 1937

1936 was a very good year!

• I did annual slider change 2 months ago (to Free Market) and just paid off the dissent today.
• IC is 206/165 and climbing ~5% IC with every round of factories/infra. Incredible!
• Now have 9 tech slots with 3 of them free... so will look around how I might fill those tackling the 1937 techs.
• CAS-1937 tech is already 89.80% achieved; and looking forward to soon laying down Stukas.
• Spare IC currently at ~12 so no problem doing first line but need to push the 8 planned CAS Kampfgeschwader faster so the Chief of the Air Force can change for supporting INT construction.
• Down in Spain the Republicans are sitting on five provinces with total of 1 IC; Franco has 46 IC.
• Our Legion Condor getting lots of practice!

 

[Pang Bingxun]

In fact, I have a suggestion to make it an even more obvious no-brainer: "Why not include construction bonus of -10% on radar sites?"

This seems to make sense. So far there appears to be no minister or idea that give such a bonus. On the other hand there is some risk of making this idea(or the chief of air for air superiority for that matter) a tad too powerful.

Hopefully, there are many things that could use your comments in the continuing detailed recording for my Germany doing a new (for me) build strategy. I would characterize it as "medium IC construction".

By my standards this is still a low amount of factory construction, but since it is coming from a very low amount it is clearly a step in the right direction.

An obvious improvement is is to change ministers right at the start, there is no need to delay changing to ministers of general economic improvement. Minister of Security to Rudolf Diels should occur without delay. In 1.11 germany starts with Schacht as Armaments Minister, so that would need no change there, at least not in 1936, when mere effective ic is still the major concern. Minister of Intelligence should be changed to Karl Ernst Haushofer for +5% ic.

The more interesting part is how to deal with ideas. At least one idea should be changed right at the start. Depending how much or how little ic you need for the economic build up it can be rational to switch all 3 ideas right at the start to give +5% ic each. Dealing with 20% dissent would be some concern, but if keeping all the initial army it will be easy and cheap enough.

In the building queue the economic build up should be at the top followed by construction of (convoys and) other buildings. Military units should be at the bottom, at least in 1936. If fluctuations in ic on production occur this would mitigate the damage done. Different dissent and different distribution of units suppressing the dissent can cause such fluctuations.

PS: Just wondering what is the supply consumption of ships and aircraft at rest during peacetime?

During rest it is 100%. During movement it is more and during battle or convoy hunting it is a lot more.

Ships moving is 110%, battle is 500%, convoy hunting is 600%.
Aircraft moving is 250%, air to air battle is 400%, Bombing is 600%.

But it is just a bit over 3 months to next slider move; and I am wondering what might be best? I am tempted to go for Free Market. More money from CG, less production cost, and faster upgrading are the hallmarks of a military powerhouse. No need to slide to Central Planning now that the IC from the new factories is compensating that. Going towards full Free Market until I'm stopped by ideology might be the best moves for the next few years

It depends but it probably is best to do hawk lobby again and after that free markets. By Anschluss you have -24% from sliders. 0.76x0.76=0.5776.

When you have 1938 tools in late 1937 it is a good time to move free markets as the 2 changes in effective ic will equal each other out.

 

[Commander666]

Minister of Intelligence should be changed to Karl Ernst Haushofer for +5% ic.

HoI Richard Walther Darre has identical attributes. Does Richard have some problem, like maybe early death? I purposefully did not pick Karl because I know some guys have short political career (eg Bloomberg) and figured the game designers would probably put at top of list the more "problematic" ministers if identical to another.

The more interesting part is how to deal with ideas. At least one idea should be changed right at the start.

Almost true. I delayed not doing so from the start because I had a 6.6 IC shortfall until Rhineland was re-occupied; and delayed further until the 16th for completion of the very complex "infra icd calculation" to arrive at a firm decision that I would indeed do the correct policy change for my game. Now that I know all that, next time I will change policy with Rhineland re-occupation (as I usually do) - but never "changed right at the start". In truth, efficient trading for the crucial first week does not benefit by stressing everything with a policy change that matters little if delayed a week (since the Rhineland free dissent reduction was fully consumed with 2 minister changes). I suppose that might be slightly altered timetabling for v1.11

Depending how much or how little ic you need for the economic build up it can be rational to switch all 3 ideas right at the start to give +5% ic each.

Obviously, if keeping the Kriegsmarine intact and completing the Graf Spee asap (which is the only rational Germany strategy regarding those items with pre-paid re-tooling) there will result some temporary IC shortfall near start if doing an economic build as heavily as I did.

And I can't agree that incurring 18% dissent as you recommend is very smart since later events like Anschluss and Munich give considerable free dissent reduction. By limiting myself to only 1 policy change (National Identity) I husbanded available IC to use for supporting my early build up of navy and air force - a strategy I like far better than only having "economy builds" in one's production.

The point of the policy change was not for +5% IC bonus but to avail asap of the "infra construction -5%" applied to all the infra projects for many years. The next 2 policy changes don't come with any construction bonuses; and - as all the possible choices have not even appeared yet - changing either Social Policy or Culture early in game appears to be "a shot in the dark". That might not apply to you but would to most players without intimate knowledge of the files.

In the building queue the economic build up should be at the top followed by construction of (convoys and) other buildings. Military units should be at the bottom, at least in 1936.

If you look at my first screen shot, that is where you will find military units.
Later posts that emphasize such things as laying down TACs and TRAs moved items to top for viewer appreciation.
But with last screen shot "Continuing the Wehrmacht Build Scheme " the military items are again showing where they belong (except the SS and DD need shifting up a bit).

It depends but it probably is best to do hawk lobby again and after that free markets.

Not sure I agree since I can not predict every event and subsequent free slider moves. I suspect there might be some free moves to Hawk Lobby; and I am only a couple points from maxed out there. So Free Market - which I got a long ways to go - seems safer.

I think you should have critiqued the decision to put TRA into construction at all near start - that being the true major conundrum with my game. I am still wrestling with the decision. But any input needs to realize that the goal of 8 CAS, 12 TACs and minimum 5 TRA is not open for discussion. Obviously, with Chief of the Air Force Kesselring arriving Jan 1, '37, I feel like the guy is mocking my efforts.

Believe me, I would like to do it better than I am currently managing, but also not open for discussion is that minimum 1 TRA plane is ready and orged for Danzig, and 5 for Fall Gelb. It will be 3 PAR. And - mostly - any unneeded delay of getting INT down with proper minister support really is the most important thing.

I have worked thru possible changes, but it always comes back to considering:

• only 1 re-tooling for the 4 TACs
• only 1 re-tooling for the 5 TRA (reduced from 6 as that actually works and might be the "time solution")
• only 2 re-toolings for the 8 CAS
• minimum minister changes and ending with INT/FTR support being in place for aerial combat bonuses come Danzig. It can be 3 lines of INT once they start construction - something that might help resolve the idiocy of there being only 7 INTs at start. But 3 lines of INT x 3 units each = 9 (so getting the missing INT, then cancelling one line which is replaced by new line of FTR).

This "TRA business" really is the most complex challenge of the whole game start. Well, maybe your economic plan deserves better such high esteem.

 

[Commander666]

When you have 1938 tools in late 1937 it is a good time to move free markets as the 2 changes in effective ic will equal each other out.

I don't think I follow the "changes in effective ic will equal each other out" bit.

I would think that any time after deciding one is not going towards Central Planning is always good time for moving to free markets as one has already denied oneself any IC increase possible from Central Planning.

The IC increase that 1938 Tools provides will therefore have no bearing on that decision to abandon Central Planning - such having occurred far earlier. 1938 Tools only mitigates net IC if the decision to give up extra IC from Central Planning was done.

However, mostly, I don't see any connection between 1938 Tools achieved and the huge benefits (and slight negative costs) of Free Market. The Tools tech increases IC. Plain and simple, right? Moving to Free Market incurs no IC changes. Your connecting back to an irrevocable decision regarding "if player had gone Central Planning then IC changes would have been applicable" simply is not applicable to considering what you are discussing (decision to go Free Markets).

So why delay moving to Free Markets until 1938 Tools achieved?

 

[Pang Bingxun]

HoI Richard Walther Darre has identical attributes. Does Richard have some problem, like maybe early death?

No. IRL it was 1953 which is not really early in game. There is no objective difference apart from idealogy, but that one will not become relevant unless you become democratic or so.

I purposefully did not pick Karl because I know some guys have short political career (eg Bloomberg) and figured the game designers would probably put at top of list the more "problematic" ministers if identical to another.

I donnot believe that there has been such consideration. Also Bloomberg can have a full career, just make the right decision when the event comes.

In truth, efficient trading for the crucial first week does not benefit by stressing everything with a policy change that matters little if delayed a week (since the Rhineland free dissent reduction was fully consumed with 2 minister changes). I suppose that might be slightly altered timetabling for v1.11.

Slightly altered, yes. But hardly much. I estimated it to make sense in your case, i still do.

Obviously, if keeping the Kriegsmarine intact and completing the Graf Spee asap (which is the only rational Germany strategy regarding those items with pre-paid re-tooling) there will result some temporary IC shortfall near start if doing an economic build as heavily as I did.

From your posts i see that you spend 20 ic on factories and 4x4+11x2=38 ic on infra of economic value plus further 6 ic on infra for ESE mainly. The later can clearly be delayed till mid 1936 or whenever deemed suiteable. You spend only 58 ic on the economic build up which is still a quite light economic build up, about 40% of what i deem reasonable.

Is there a rational reason to actually fund
A) The Graf Spee and the other naval divions with progress?
B) The items without progress like Scharnhorst and Bismarck?

Is there any objective gain compared to keeping them in the building queue, but keep them unfunded till funding them is needed to complete them before say Danzig? My answer to this is a decisive no for B and a slightly less clear no for A.

And I can't agree that incurring 18% dissent as you recommend is very smart since later events like Anschluss and Munich give considerable free dissent reduction.

Yes, but it depends on circumstances. There is a good chance that the costs for changing ideas will be recuperated (long) before Anschluss. Why avoid increasing ic? The damage done from dissent will be very small if you keep the army for suppression. In may 1936 you can have more than 200 effective ic. It is better to waste the dissent reduction from events than to waste a good opportunity.

This is not to say that it is good to waste dissent reductions, but if used they need to be used in way that on balance is smart.

By limiting myself to only 1 policy change (National Identity) I husbanded available IC to use for supporting my early build up of navy and air force - a strategy I like far better than only having "economy builds" in one's production.

That is of course your prerogative. But if your goal is to reach cognition about what is rational build up is, than i suggest to use your build up till Danzig to estimate how much icd you spend on military construction before 1938 and how much icd you spend on consumer goods after 1937 but before Danzig. If the later is the larger figure, than you are not limited by available ic, but by available icd. In that case it is wise to not spend ic on military production before 1938, spend it on consumer goods instead and then use up the money for a strong military build up when sliders are maxed out to -24%. Then you have only to pay 0.76x0.76=0.5776 of the icd needed with -0% from sliders.

The point of the policy change was not for +5% IC bonus but to avail asap of the "infra construction -5%" applied to all the infra projects for many years.

But your total infra construction is only 44 ic, so 5% of that is only 2.2 ic. The idea gives slightly more than 7.5 ic in early 1936 and a lot more as base ic is increasing.

Even if the extra ic were to be "mitigated" by using double or triple ic, than this would still be more valuable than the -5% on Infra construction.

That might not apply to you but would to most players without intimate knowledge of the files.

To me it would not apply, because i need the faster dissent reduction.

Not sure I agree since I can not predict every event and subsequent free slider moves. I suspect there might be some free moves to Hawk Lobby; and I am only a couple points from maxed out there. So Free Market - which I got a long ways to go - seems safer.

If you do less than 2 manual moves hawk lobby, than hawk lobby will be less than maxed out with Anschluss.

If you were to do some heavy stockpiling of money doing a move free markets before the second move hawk lobby might make sense, but since is not what you are doing the slider move to hawk lobby is a bit obvious, especially with all that military construction.

I think you should have critiqued the decision to put TRA into construction at all near start - that being the true major conundrum with my game.

If your goal is to reach say 5 Tra1936 20 days before Danzig, then the rational way to reach it would be to enter them to building queue 513+72+20 days before Danzig at 1937/12/25. That is assuming no bonus from ministers and 72 days of retooling. There would be a few days between when retooling is done and Anschluss. Then only -20% from sliders apply. So maybe it will only be 19 days before Danzig.

But any input needs to realize that the goal of 8 CAS, 12 TACs and minimum 5 TRA is not open for discussion.

Keeping the initial 8 Tac would i estimate that 1 line of Tac and 2 lines of 4 CAs each would be the rational choice. Without bonus from ministers and 72 days of retooling those would need to start 506+72+20 days before Danzig at 1938/01/02.

It will be 3 PAR.

Those would need to start 455+72+20 days before Danzig at 1938/02/23. Probably less than 20 days before Danzig would also suffice for land divisions. I just use the 20 days as a generic figure. Any day later would help, at least if it still is safe.

And - mostly - any unneeded delay of getting INT down with proper minister support really is the most important thing.

The simple solution is to only use Milch or any other air superiority guy as Chief of Air. Lay down 2 lines of Int1937 and one line of MRF1938 487+72+20 days before Danzig at 1938/02/21. That will give you 5 MRF and 5+5+3=13 Int 20 days before Danzig.

I don't think I follow the "changes in effective ic will equal each other out" bit.

Losing the one step central planning means losing +5% ic. Gaining +5% ic from 1938 tools at the same time is a small convenience, because no change in effective ic would occur.

Moving to Free Market incurs no IC changes.

Early on the +5% ic from central planning are needed. From there moving free markets increases money production per icd a lot. What you missed is simply that germany gets +5% ic from sliders in 1936 and moving free markets changes that.

 

[Commander666]

plus further 6 ic on infra for ESE mainly. The later can clearly be delayed till mid 1936 or whenever deemed suiteable.

I only doing 4 IC for mainly ESE (Potsdam and Cottbus which are zero resource provinces). All other infra are at places of considerable resource value. My notes after several of them stating "improve ESE" is only additional comment that there is a duplicate benefit and points out particular lines into Russia and Italy.

Is there a rational reason to actually fund
A) The Graf Spee and the other naval divions with progress?
B) The items without progress like Scharnhorst and Bismarck?
Is there any objective gain compared to keeping them in the building queue, but keep them unfunded till funding them is needed to complete them before say Danzig?

What you are suggesting would mean going off auto sliders - a headache I won't tolerate just to avoid paying idle cost. Yes, the ships could stay unfunded if player always sets 'suggested IC to be less than what is indicated'. I do that sometimes in special cases, but not what I prefer having to check every day for long time. Getting the ships built is much nicer because it permits clearer thinking of how the fleets will form up, and what else is required - like decent Light Cruisers. For me it is a war game; and I very much enjoy the arms building logically to real life and war gaming.

Let me ask you a question. "Would you every send ships around Spain just to watch SCW action in greater detail?" I would guess not since you would be more concerned calculating the considerable oil and supplies such an operation - basically - wastes.

So what? That is the joy of playing the game (versus calculations IMO).

But your total infra construction is only 44 ic, so 5% of that is only 2.2 ic. The idea gives slightly more than 7.5 ic in early 1936 and a lot more as base ic is increasing.

That is 2.2 ic daily. I calculate that as 792 icd saved per year. Don't get your 2nd part. National Identity does not give 7.5 ic ever, AFAIK.
But with policy in effect (after 4 months) the savings on infra until all is completed amount to as was earlier detailed.
(77,848 icd x 5% = 3,892.4 icd)

If you do less than 2 manual moves hawk lobby, than hawk lobby will be less than maxed out with Anschluss.

Thanks for the info. Had I known I would have made another move to hawk for this year. And that does bring up the issue of "fog of war".

If you were to do some heavy stockpiling of money doing a move free markets before the second move hawk lobby might make sense, but since is not what you are doing the slider move to hawk lobby is a bit obvious, especially with all that military construction.

You mean before the "second MANUAL move to Hawk Lobby"? Two moves did occur - one with re-occupation.
Not obvious at all as regards "all that military construction". Both sliders give identical construction bonus.

If your goal is to reach say 5 Tra1936 20 days before Danzig, then the rational way to reach it would be to enter them to building queue 513+72+20 days before Danzig at 1937/12/25. Keeping the initial 8 Tac would i estimate that 1 line of Tac and 2 lines of 4 CAs each would be the rational choice. Without bonus from ministers and 72 days of retooling those would need to start 506+72+20 days before Danzig at 1938/01/02.

Well, Pang, playing a game that way (in reverse) works great if you have precise blue print. So - before completing Trump Towers - I am sure Donald knew exactly what elevation he could fly his flag. And I'm sure it works just as well for you consulting the files like a blue print equivalent. But my mind does not want to me to make notes on everything I might build as per "by what latest date need I put that into construction to avoid a major SNAFU." In short, I prefer going from "A > B" and not, while at "C" needing to remember I must start "A" or it won't reach "B" when game is at "D".

The simple solution is to only use Milch or any other air superiority guy as Chief of Air. Lay down 2 lines of Int1937 and one line of MRF1938 487+72+20 days before Danzig at 1938/02/21. That will give you 5 MRF and 5+5+3=13 Int 20 days before Danzig.

Again Pang, I don't want 5 FTR and 13 INT. I demand only 12 INT and 4 FTR (and then the stacks accumulating in pairs until I have enough. You may have noticed that FTR and INT do not easily combine into 1 stack anymore. Before I would not have worried about one INT short as player can just pop in an odd FTR.

But I don't need the "combination headache" with mixing FTR and INT these days (changed with 1.09). Hence the alternate solution I gave (3 lines INT initially building to get them accumulating 50% faster than your plan); and when INTs are even number, cancelling a line. Then probably put up 2 lines of FTR to get them catching up. For some reason in life, pairs are so much better when it comes to aircraft. Must be because of the long standing "wing man" concept.

Losing the one step central planning means losing +5% ic. Gaining +5% ic from 1938 tools at the same time is a small convenience, because no change in effective ic would occur. Early on the +5% ic from central planning are needed.

Agree.

What you missed is simply that germany gets +5% ic from sliders in 1936 and moving free markets changes that.

I indeed did miss that because the info is total hidden until AFTER the slider has moved off its position and into the Free Market side.

So, I unintentionally lost +5% IC in my game when I did the advanced annual move two months ago to Free Market. What a perfect SNAFU. I advanced the slide by 2 months and ended up paying off dissent to immediately screw up my IC.

I guess I should have waited for a reply to my question before continuing game. Oh well, next time.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

I only doing 3 ic for mainly ESE (Potsdam and Cottbus which are zero resource provinces). All other infra are at places of considerable resource value.

Cottbus has some energy. Rostock however is below the threshold for which you choose to build infra for. So it is 3x2=6 ic for infra below economic value by your standards.

What you are suggesting would mean going off auto sliders - a headache I won't tolerate just to avoid paying idle cost.

I did not realize you actually use that. It is of course quite deviating from what is rational. What happens if you lack the ic to fund all production? Would this not have a similar effect?

By using autosliders it may become rational to use heavy sliders rushing just to decrease ic available for early military production.

Another option is of course to simply idle production, but as that is not for free it is not clear that is is actually preferable.

That is 2.2 ic saved daily. I calculate that as 792 icd saved per year. Don't get your 2nd part. National Identity does not give 7.5 ic ever.

+5% on 153 base ic is more than 7.5 effective ic.

You mean before the "second MANUAL move to Hawk Lobby"?

Sure. The ones via event should be the same in either case.

I indeed did miss that because the info is total hidden until AFTER the slider has moved off its position and into the Free Market side.

It is not totally hidden. The mouseover on the current position reveals it:

 

[Commander666]

Rostock however is below the threshold for which you choose to build infra for.

OK, that would be 3 provinces with infra improved for ESE purposes. I forgot how poor "industrially speaking" Rostock is. So why did you include it in the AI's build scheme (and at double speed)? It only has 2 factories at start.

I mean, where you not of the earlier opinion that doing all the other provinces as happens with your starting set up results in nearly identical ESE to a 200 infra outlet at Kiel or Wilhelmshaven? Why waste infra at Rostock (especially if no high line to Berlin) when you are doing infra at the other 2 ports and they have high infra line to Berlin... and they at least have 3 factories each also.

Seems Rostock is below your threshold... unless you are applying my long touted advantages of making Rostock the ESE Outlet and is reserved for upgrading - versus using the North Sea ports to upgrade at.

However, there does appear to be a weird "glitch" at Wilhelmshaven and Kiel regarding org regain - even if no infra improvements - with them gaining org faster than 200 infra Rostock. But that is only for newly laid down ships, and the fastest possible upgrading is Rostock.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

I have to get back to autoproduction. Funding the naval builds in 1936 is a really bad idea. The Graf Spee is a mild exception. The 2 DD and the one SS are open to interpretation. But regarding Scharnhorst and Bismark there is a lesson that needs to be learned because we are not talking about peanuts.

At -24% from sliders the brigaded Bismarck needs 388 days times 6.4633 ic. With only -12% from sliders the needed icd will be 34.07% higher.

Supply consumption of the brigaded Bismarck is 1.3. Over 720 days that is 936 supplies and at 4 supplies per icd that is 234 icd. 2.6 manpower taken from pool cause further 0.026 ic over 720 days, that is 18.72 icd. If the Bismarck is canceled at start and laid down 720 days later this saves 252.72 ic, but it creates costs of 72 days of retooling. That is 465.3576 icd. So canceling the build seems like bad idea due to net costs of 212.6376 icd. For the same progress of spending 624.0827 icd at -24% from slider with only -12% 212.6376 additional icd would need to be paid. Those 0.2487 total progress need 96.49 days at -24% and 111.66 days at -12%. So if you fund the Bismarck 112 days in 1936 this will already be more inefficient than incurring 72 days of retooling.

OK, that would be 3 provinces with infra improved for ESE purposes. I forgot how poor "industrially speaking" Rostock is. So why did you include it in the AI's build scheme (and at double speed)?

Only single speed. It is included for the ic, for the possible rocket test site and mainly for ESE in Rostock itself. AI uses Rostock often for reinforcing naval divisions, thus high ESE there is of the essense.

I mean, where you not of the earlier opinion that doing all the other provinces as happens with your starting set up results in nearly identical ESE to a 200 infra outlet at Kiel or Wilhelmshaven?

I still am of the opinion that Wilhelmshaven should be used. Whether it should get only 150+% ESE or 200+% ESE because Cottbus gets high infra is a bit unclear, i am uncertain whether it is worth it. For ESE oversea 150+% ESE do suffice, but 200+% ESE are good for reinforcements and upgrades, so there is worth.

IRL the Kriegsmarinewerft in Wilhelmshaven was specialized on repairs and upgrades. Building new ships such as the Tirpitz was just a means to keep up the high capacity of know how, machines and personal.

 

[Commander666]

I have to get back to autoproduction. Funding the naval builds in 1936 is a really bad idea. The Graf Spee is a mild exception. The 2 DD and the one SS are open to interpretation. But regarding Scharnhorst and Bismarck there is a lesson that needs to be learned because we are not talking about peanuts.

I guess you missed the personal directive I got from the Führer:
"After Bismarck and Tirpitz, I want one more. It will be called KMS Adolf Hitler."

As that completes June 21, 1939... and all THREE battleships are supposed to go into Atlantic (fully orged of course) to be sitting off Scapa Flow for Danzig, you need to re-compute the loss of 80 days re-tooling versus the fact that line could possibly have sat "unfunded at bottom" for only a month (possibly).

June 21 > Danzig = 79 days less 2 weeks org gain and 2 days travel time, or 79-16 = 63 days. But as the build is being used as the draw for any production IC temporary shortfalls, it could easily get delayed a month or even two - at anytime before now and then.
And the "Scharnhorsts" might possibly go to "six" which would be 1941 . But that info is still supposed to be "classified".

Seems Raeder and Hitler have been hatching up some scheme to steal the thunder from Donitz. Well, you know how it is... politics!

But - if you go back to Post #190 - I think you actually got the Führer's directive lying about somewhere in one of those screen shots.

 

[Commander666]

"THE PROMISE OF 1937" by Adolf Hitler

January 30th, 1937 speech at the Reichstag on the anniversary of coming to power:

"This session of the Reichstag takes place on a date which is full of significance for the German people. Four years have passed since the beginning of that great internal revolution which in the meantime has been giving a new aspect to German life. This is the period of four years which I asked the German people to grant me for the purpose of putting my work to the test and submitting it to their judgment. Hence at the present moment nothing could be more opportune than for me to render you an account of all the successes that have been achieved and the progress that has been made during these four years, for the welfare of the German people."

[Skip lengthy passage]

"Surely nobody will doubt the fact that during the last four years a revolution of the most momentous character has passed like a storm over Germany. Who could compare this new Germany with that which existed on the 30th of January four years ago, when I took my oath of loyalty before the venerable President of the Reich?"

[Skip lengthy passage]

"I was not an economist, which means that I have never been a theorist during my whole life... … … There is no economic theory or opinion which can claim to be considered as sacrosanct. The will to place the economic system at the service of the people, and capital at the service of economics, is the only thing that is of decisive importance here."

[Skip lengthy passage]

"Four years ago, when I was entrusted with the Chancellorship and therewith the leadership of the nation, I took upon myself the bitter duty of restoring the honor of a nation which for fifteen years had been forced to live as a pariah among the other nations of the world. The internal order which we created among the German people offered the conditions necessary to reorganize the army and also made it possible for me to throw off those shackles which we felt to be the deepest disgrace ever branded on a people."

[Skip lengthy passage]

"As I look back on the great work that has been done during the past four years you will understand quite well that my first feeling is simply one of thankfulness to our Almighty God for having allowed me to bring this work to success. He has blessed our labors and has enabled our people to come through all the obstacles which encompassed them on their way. .. … ... I have had three extraordinary friends in my life. In my youth it was Poverty, which was my companion for many years. When the Great War came to a close it was the profound Anguish that I felt over the downfall of our people. This anguish seized me and determined the path I had to follow. Since January 30th four years ago I have made the acquaintance of the third friend--Anxiety for the people and the Reich, which have been entrusted to my guidance."

"On this historic occasion I must once again thank all those millions of unknown Germans, from every class and caste, profession and trade and from all the farmsteads, who have given their hearts, their lives and their sacrifices, for the new Reich. And all of us, gentlemen and members of the Reichstag, hereby join together in tendering our thanks to the women of Germany, to the millions of those German mothers who have given their children to the Third Reich. During these four years every mother who has presented a child to the nation has contributed by her pain and her joy to the happiness of the whole people. When I think of that healthy youth which belongs to our nation, then my faith in the future becomes a joyful certainty. And it is with a profound feeling that I realize the significance of the simple word which Ulrich von Huten wrote when he picked up his pen for the last time--Deutschland"

It was a massive applause.

Well, I better return to working very hard for the 3rd Reich... and immediately (currently January 1st, 1937) appropriate new technology teams to the areas where it will be most profitable:

• Rear Area Vehicle Repair using Opel (will be achieved June 6, '37)
• Basic ESC/FTR using Fucke-Wulf (Aug 19, '37)
• Leaves 2 of the 9 slots vacant, research speed continues as before (100%).

UPDATES for January 1937:

• 17th - Agricultural Production achieved (3 empty slots now)
• 27th - the first batch of Junkers Transport planes arrives. HURRAH!
• 29th - IMP Machine tools achieved, begin ADV using Farben (completes Oct 29, '37).

UPDATES for February 1937:

• 7th - IMP DD-1938 tech using Kreigsmarinewerft (completes Oct 14, '37). 9/9 slots used.
• 18th - Basic CAS-1 tech (CAS-1937) achieved (leave slot empty)
• Lay down 2 lines CAS x 4 each for 8 Kampfgeschwader total (complete Oct 30, '38)
• NOTE: The last TAC completes Dec 25/37
• NOTE: Chief of Air Force will switch when the Stukas are finished.
• NOTE: Severe IC shortage putting up twin Stuka lines.
• Scharnhorst delayed indefinitely, Bismarck at 25-30% progress.
• The "Slider shift SNAFU" is really hurting as I could have ~8 IC more right now. Currently 216/166
• Kriegsmarine ordered to abandon watching a stupid SCW that hasn't changed for months, and "stop wasting supplies" as it is affecting construction progress now that we can't make ends meet.
• February 30th - Commander666 finds brilliant solution to the severe IC crises affecting naval production without impacting on the twin lines of Stuka construction progress. He has suggested the below which delays the CL-4s as to how needed now that NEW FLEET PLAN has been instigated to make better use of Germany's existing CL-3s for the time being.
• The new fleets will be as follows below. This will result in the three BB-4s completing early enough to get modern brigade upgrades once launched... and still make the war on time.

KMS Emden will get Fire Control once a new ASW brigade frees a FC elsewhere. Most DDs changing to ASW brigades.

Waiting for KMS Bismarck, then KMS Tirpitz and screen, then KMS Adolf Hitler and screen

"Fair Winds and Following Seas"


UPDATES for April 1937:

• 4th - achieved Basic Encryption (slots now 7/9)
• 9th - KMS Bismarck launched
• 24th - KMS Scharnhorst launched,
• BC fleet of 3 capitals on track for Danzig,
• CL-4 screens need to catch up
• 30th - SS launched
• With having done some trades, all of production is now funded almost 100% but not even enough spare IC to reinforce something registering as small as 0.12 IC
• Tech slots used = 7/9

Gee, I wonder what Hitler and Raeder plan to do with all of these ships at time of Danzig.



UPDATES for May 1937:

• 26th - Second TRA is completed. (Hurrah!)
• Because there has been activity down at Spain, the Kriegsmarine sent one ship to monitor the situation. We do not want to miss seeing the finale.

UPDATES for June 1937:

• 1st - N. Spain annexed R. Spain
• 2nd - changed Chief of the Army to Werner Bloomberg (Supply consumption -15%)
• 6th - Achieved Rear Area Supply and begin Basic Field ART using Rheinmetall (Nov 17, '37)
• 7th - Event, and eliminate the 1% dissent

UPDATES FOR JULY 1938:

• 9th - Battlefield Interdiction doctrine done, > Bomb Vet Initiative using Ernst Udet (Dec 5, '37)
• 10th - MARCO POLO event. Japan goes to war!
• 15th - need to cancel China trade, results in low metal, and for first time need to buy ($) an import.

NOTE: This "Mini-Section" regarding my new game starts at Post #185