• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

MJF

Lt. General
9 Badges
Dec 31, 2005
1.560
144
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
Playing 1.11 as Germany, (Normal/Aggressive) Sealane Int, Attacking France & Belgium Oct '39, right after Poland fell. 18 Heavy Subs, 6 BC IVs, the original Baltic Fleet & other ships, 12 INTs, 8 TACs, 3 CASs. Progressing nicely in France, although encountering heavier-than-usual resistance approaching Paris. UK & French subs sinking lots of my convoys in the greater North Sea area (unusual) but I'm countering with an ASW and Baltic Fleet. The bulk of the UK Navy had disappeared.

Suddenly, I see a UK amphib of Kiel! If I didn't have a corps of Paratroopers sitting in Wilhelmshaven (I'm not attacking the NET yet) they could've marched into Berlin before I could've stopped them! They were supported by the bulk of the UK home fleet. My 6 BCs were returning to port, almost "empty". 9 SSHs, the Baltic Fleet, and assorted CA/CL/DDs joined in, with 4 TACs and somehow chased the UK fleet off (back to Keil, no-doubt), and a PAR drop seems to be slowly winning the day. I never make PAR's this early -- too costly
for an early-attacking strategy. This was an experiment -- PAR's instead of MAR's (thinking ahead to Sealion)
.
Before the (very buggy) 1.11 this counterplay never happened. It's impressive, I'll say that...

1.11_Is_Trying.png


11.11pt2.png
 
Last edited:

ConjurerDragon

Generalissimus
79 Badges
Apr 19, 2005
5.512
578
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Impire
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • East India Company Collection
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
Keil --> Kiel
 

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
Attacking France & Belgium Oct '39, right after Poland fell.

That is impressive but the following makes it less so.

UK & French subs sinking lots of my convoys in the greater North Sea area (unusual)
I imagine you are discussing your trades with Sweden importing iron ore. Not sure why they are running thru the North Sea to even be attacked, but it only exposes the folly of German player not doing the right thing - which is annexing Denmark soon after Poland falls. With Denmark secured you should have an overland trade route to Sweden so your convoys don't come into play. If it is convoys to S. America being attacked, trading with SU is probably better.

Suddenly, I see a UK amphib of Kiel! … ... … this counterplay never happened. It's impressive, I'll say that...

Well, you probably should be thankful it is only Kiel and not Stralsund next to Berlin. I simply can not understand German player not having a proper defense dug in at Kiel; and every amphibious province along the Baltic if you don't control the Kattegat Straits. Yes, it is impressive the AI did this attack in v1.11 because it seems that the exceptionally poor AI in previous versions never doing it (or hardly ever) has really resulted in correspondingly poor performance by some players of Germany getting away without proper defense (like not even a unit in your capital).

I think you need a human to show you how quickly you could lose your capital given your non-existent defense of it. Too bad the AI didn't land the 1st British Airborne division also at Kiel, and from there dropped on your capital to give you a serious setback including losing a lot of resources.

AI +1 -1 = 0
MJF +1 - 2 = -1
:)
 

MJF

Lt. General
9 Badges
Dec 31, 2005
1.560
144
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
That is impressive but the following makes it less so.


I imagine you are discussing your trades with Sweden importing iron ore. Not sure why they are running thru the North Sea to even be attacked, but it only exposes the folly of German player not doing the right thing - which is annexing Denmark soon after Poland falls. With Denmark secured you should have an overland trade route to Sweden so your convoys don't come into play. If it is convoys to S. America being attacked, trading with SU is probably better.
Probably Sweden. My ASW fleet & Baltic Fleet are slowly destroying them.



Well, you probably should be thankful it is only Kiel and not Stralsund next to Berlin. I simply can not understand German player not having a proper defense dug in at Kiel; and every amphibious province along the Baltic if you don't control the Kattegat Straits.
The British are wimps! They are expecting "Sitzkreig." Not from me!They are too confused and shell-shocked to do anything like that. they couldn't even manage to land in Kiel in force, which they easily could've done.
Yes, it is impressive the AI did this attack in v1.11 because it seems that the exceptionally poor AI in previous versions never doing it (or hardly ever) has really resulted in correspondingly poor performance by some players of Germany getting away without proper defense (like not even a unit in your capital).
Ahhh -- maybe by 1.12...?

I think you need a human to show you how quickly you could lose your capital given your non-existent defense of it. Too bad the AI didn't land the 1st British Airborne division also at Kiel, and from there dropped on your capital to give you a serious setback including losing a lot of resources.

AI +1 -1 = 0
MJF +1 - 2 = -1
:)
That'll be the day. Goering assures me they will never get that close!
 

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
Of added interest is that your Luftwaffe lost a battle against the Belgium air force. Uhm, how does that happen? I mean, it wasn't the French or British air force. I hadn't realized Belgium had anything that could beat the Luftwaffe. Maybe that is because I always run a stack of 4 TACs with brigades and 4 INT from same airport to same target. That way Belgium's whatever 4-stack they got will definitely be sidelined after running into my effectively 12 units. This is so standard a tactic for me whenever doing interdiction that I have simply forgotten that Belgium even has any air force - because they effectively don't anymore after the first few hours of Fall Gelb. You have the air counters to run it same way (stack of 4 INT flying the route with each bomber stack) and doing so would probably have huge positive effect to keep your Luftwaffe strong. While it is tempting to keep the bombers based in Kassel and the INT forward at Essen, 4 INT and 4 TAC at Essen results in the same over stacking but is far better to insure the bombers are not picked off. Then the other INT and TAC stacks at Kassel can feed fresh units into Essen as needed and simultaneously pull back the damaged units which will repair at Kassel (which is not over stacked).
 

MJF

Lt. General
9 Badges
Dec 31, 2005
1.560
144
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
Of added interest is that your Luftwaffe lost a battle against the Belgium air force. Uhm, how does that happen? I mean, it wasn't the French or British air force. I hadn't realized Belgium had anything that could beat the Luftwaffe. Maybe that is because I always run a stack of 4 TACs with brigades and 4 INT from same airport to same target. That way Belgium's whatever 4-stack they got will definitely be sidelined after running into my effectively 12 units. This is so standard a tactic for me whenever doing interdiction that I have simply forgotten that Belgium even has any air force - because they effectively don't anymore after the first few hours of Fall Gelb. You have the air counters to run it same way (stack of 4 INT flying the route with each bomber stack) and doing so would probably have huge positive effect to keep your Luftwaffe strong. While it is tempting to keep the bombers based in Kassel and the INT forward at Essen, 4 INT and 4 TAC at Essen results in the same over stacking but is far better to insure the bombers are not picked off. Then the other INT and TAC stacks at Kassel can feed fresh units into Essen as needed and simultaneously pull back the damaged units which will repair at Kassel (which is not over stacked).
I push the Luftwaffe to it's limits, 1% org disengagements. They run away easily at thal level. Early attacking means 2 x 4 TACs and 1 x 4 CAS and 3 x 4 INTs (if that) by 9/39. The INTs are busy chasing away Coningham & his chaps. In 1.11, Hungary no longer spams INTs. I have to make them early now. Too bad.
 

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
I push the Luftwaffe to it's limits, 1% org disengagements. They run away easily at thal level.


I think what percentage "org and strength loss" the slider is set at really is determined by many factors that pertain to management of an air force and can vary from 99% to 1% depending on particular goals and needs. Discussion of that is very complex. But I think it is fairly easy to agree that any air combat won has got to be better than that same combat lost.

But I am not sure what you really are saying because either way I read the above there is a contradiction:
1) "Disengagement at 1% org"? That is certainly pushing them to the limit but not sure it is effective since you did lose battle against Belgium. And that contradicts your other statement; "They run away easily at that level" since it was Belgium that won and your units could not run away until 1% reached?
2) or, "If you suffer 1% org loss then your units will retreat"? This fits to the Belgium units winning and yours running away easily but how is that pushing the Luftwaffe to its limits? So not sure what you mean.
 
Last edited:

MJF

Lt. General
9 Badges
Dec 31, 2005
1.560
144
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
I think what percentage "org and strength loss" the slider is set at really is determined by many factors that pertain to management of an air force and can vary from 99% to 1% depending on particular goals and needs. Discussion of that is very complex. But I think it is fairly easy to agree that any air combat won has got to be better than that same combat lost.

But I am not sure what you really are saying because either way I read the above there is a contradiction:
1) "Disengagement at 1% org"? That is certainly pushing them to the limit but not sure it is effective since you did lose battle against Belgium. And that contradicts your other statement; "They run away easily at that level" since it was Belgium that won and your units could not run away until 1% reached?
2) or, "If you suffer 1% org loss then your units will retreat"? This fits to the Belgium units winning and yours running away easily but how is that pushing the Luftwaffe to its limits? So not sure what you mean.
This is typical for my airforce. I changed the txt file to cut in 1/2 the bebasing penalty. That is the only change I make.

Lo_Org.png
 

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
Truthfully, I have never yet had a stack of air counters all at near nil org. But you got me wondering if my generally high org throughout my air force is contributing to my long standing play style of always gaining air dominance, and generally spending relatively very little on reinforcements because I am mostly winning in a substantial manner. But for sure I will never have all 4 counters at seemingly 100% pristine strength while org is as evenly low you show. That seems impossible in normal play.

So I am wondering what are you doing. Surely what you show is not even representative of 4 INT attacking 4 enemy TAC/ESC brigade because you would get some damage. It really seems to me that you must be trying for a kind of play style that could be called "avoidance while still engaging". I am not sure if that is correct as I can't know all your details. But if it is, why even have a Luftwaffe at all? I mean, what is your Luftwaffe accomplishing if they don't stick around long enough to inflict major damage on enemy bombers? How can you be nearly nil org but full strength unless you purposefully created it with rebasing?

And very worrisome is the fact that, because you seem to have set org AND strength to "retreat at 1% remaining" (setting can only be done to include both org and strength parameters same/same) then - if your 4 INT ever ran into 8 enemy INT - your strength would be horribly mauled. Worse, this setting usually results in losing some units and I am surprised you have not experienced same. But then I have never seen a screen shot like you showed, so I am completely baffled by how much actual combat you are doing.

Did those INT start with full org, and you are showing the result after combat... or what? It's rather unbelievable they had any combat. And how would you rebase such "typical units" even with rebasing org loss modified to be only 50% - since those units would "lock up" if even just doing a short rebasing?
 

MJF

Lt. General
9 Badges
Dec 31, 2005
1.560
144
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
Truthfully, I have never yet had a stack of air counters all at near nil org. But you got me wondering if my generally high org throughout my air force is contributing to my long standing play style of always gaining air dominance, and generally spending relatively very little on reinforcements because I am mostly winning in a substantial manner. But for sure I will never have all 4 counters at seemingly 100% pristine strength while org is as evenly low you show. That seems impossible in normal play.

So I am wondering what are you doing. Surely what you show is not even representative of 4 INT attacking 4 enemy TAC/ESC brigade because you would get some damage. It really seems to me that you must be trying for a kind of play style that could be called "avoidance while still engaging". I am not sure if that is correct as I can't know all your details. But if it is, why even have a Luftwaffe at all? I mean, what is your Luftwaffe accomplishing if they don't stick around long enough to inflict major damage on enemy bombers? How can you be nearly nil org but full strength unless you purposefully created it with rebasing?

And very worrisome is the fact that, because you seem to have set org AND strength to "retreat at 1% remaining" (setting can only be done to include both org and strength parameters same/same) then - if your 4 INT ever ran into 8 enemy INT - your strength would be horribly mauled. Worse, this setting usually results in losing some units and I am surprised you have not experienced same. But then I have never seen a screen shot like you showed, so I am completely baffled by how much actual combat you are doing.

Did those INT start with full org, and you are showing the result after combat... or what? It's rather unbelievable they had any combat. And how would you rebase such "typical units" even with rebasing org loss modified to be only 50% - since those units would "lock up" if even just doing a short rebasing?
I found the save game from then:
TACretreat.png
My You You will see my bombers with some strength loss. They helped me win a battle in Le Havre, then I maybe forgot to disengage them. INTs will be low org due to constantly being in Air Sup mode, or from rebasing. The TACs and CASs are the ones that I push to low org levels. Even at 1% retreat values, they selectively seem to help with battles, as above. I use them in interdiction if in combat, or CASs in ground attack on retreating troops if I can. I also will rebase them and put them into Naval attack mode if a threat arises. This drains them too.
 
Last edited:

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
I found the save game from then: my bombers with some strength loss. They helped me win a battle in Le Havre, ...

I have long maintained that bombers with ESC brigade can indeed help player's INT win air battles... but in your screen shot your bombers are retreating (which is not a win). :) Or maybe you mean the bombers helped win the LAND battle? Yes, not cancelling Interdiction missions when no longer needed usually results in the AI interceptors capitalizing on an easy air victory because the TACs are already damaged.

INTs will be low org due to constantly being in Air Sup mode, or from rebasing.

Constantly flying around will definitely result in very lowered org. It really is not recommended that you go up against enemy in that condition. The fact that you set your slider to the extreme to be flying around at minimal org can not be helping you win. Of course, rebasing also lowers org (unless special tactics are used to avoid any org loss). But the whole purpose of being at bases (and with appropriate levels to match or exceed number of aircraft) is to sit there and regain org at maximum rate. But I believe Pang had some interesting statements regarding org not being very important to air combat. So, as long as your reinforcement bill is not severe but you are damaging the enemy aircraft, I suppose it is OK. Personally, I don't fly stacks that are low on org except in emergency situations like helping another stack who is engaged.

The TACs and CASs are the ones that I push to low org levels. Even at 1% retreat values, they selectively seem to help with battles, as above. I use them in interdiction if in combat,

Looks like you also push your INTs to low org levels (earlier screen shot). As regards interdiction, any bomber entering battle with low org will be leaving that battle quite quickly because of low org. It is logical to start interdiction with maximum org on the bombers.

...or CASs in ground attack on retreating troops if I can.
CAS are very good for that, but ground attack destruction values have been nerfed to get extremely little strength loss inflicted on enemy - so little that most of the loss is regained in the hours until next aircraft strike. It takes extremely many attacks to eliminate an already very weak retreater. Still, the effect of preventing org regain of retreating troops because of daily ground attack can be valuable; but close watch needs to be kept on what strength losses the aircraft are incurring. It can be devastating on the bombers in certain cases.

Truthfully, I would not fly those 4 particular bombers shown until they were fully repaired. You are risking their annihilation using them in that condition. And just those 4 TAC/ESC counters will, I estimate, give you 30-40 IC increase in your Reinforcement slider if you park them.
 
Last edited:

Pang Bingxun

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 22, 2011
5.596
185
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
But I believe Pang had some interesting statements regarding org not being very important to air combat.

I do?

Org tends to be of minor concern for land battles, but for air divisions org tends to be a major bottleneck. There avoiding the loss of org is a major concern.

CAS are very good for that, but ground attack destruction values have been nerfed to get extremely little strength loss inflicted on enemy - so little that most of the loss is regained in the hours until next aircraft strike. It takes extremely many attacks to eliminate an already very weak retreater. Still, the effect of preventing org regain of retreating troops because of daily ground attack can be valuable;

In the later case interdiction is the way to go, it is interdiction that helps to win wars of movement. Ground attack would be quite powerful for winning wars of attrition, but why go for a warfare of attrition in the first place?

My conclusion on ground attack would be that it is useless except for reducing fort levels. This can be crucial for a late sea lion.

Another application of ground attack is to use it on units soon arriving at the battlefield. At very high ESE Interdiction is ineffective because the losses in supplies and org are fast regained. The losses in strenght caused by ground attack however will help to win against them and the damage done tends to further exacerbate during land battle because divisions low on strenght will lose strenght at a higher rate.
 

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
It is interesting how one can find views that have reversed themselves if one looks thru enough old posts.

MJF and I were discussing ground attack and you quoted me as below:

CAS are very good for that, but ground attack destruction values have been nerfed to get extremely little strength loss inflicted on enemy - so little that most of the loss is regained in the hours until next aircraft strike. It takes extremely many attacks to eliminate an already very weak retreater. Still, the effect of preventing org regain of retreating troops because of daily ground attack can be valuable;

and then you replied with:

In the later case interdiction is the way to go, it is interdiction that helps to win wars of movement.

To clarify, you are saying that interdiction is the better mission to use on retreating troops to prevent their org regain . But in old post of some years ago you expressed the opposite idea.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/does-air-force-still-sucks-in-1-09.723339/#post-16188838
Post 13

Interdiction is not meant to be used on retreating units, ground attack is.

Turns out you were right then, but not now with recommending interdiction on retreating units. The Manual clarifies it better than I can.

My conclusion on ground attack would be that it is useless except for reducing fort levels.

This is a very interesting conclusion... but one I can not confirm even though I have used some very powerful STR to try to damage forts but without any effect. So you are saying that just attacking the defenders with 250 lb bombs will somehow break the concrete works. OK... I'll have to try it next game.
 

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
To clarify, I would never say Ground Attack is useless. One can still eliminate already severely damaged units IF you pound them long enough. This can prove invaluable in eliminating enemy unit that might take several weeks to complete retreat - especially if it is a province you can't get to easily. So it can be useful in Russia and some other difficult places. But generally - especially if opposing air forces are present - it isn't worth bothering with because of interception risk to your bombers and damage the mission gives them - even with the AA removed.

However, if I have air superiority, and my bombers are in excellent shape but with not enough targets, then ground attacking retreaters to relieve boredom does have the benefit that they will not gain org... and so are easily defeated once they arrive in next province. But in earlier versions it was regular practice to eliminate retreating units if they had only a little strength left. That made sense. The current set up - pounding daily for 1-2 weeks and unit still alive - is just senseless frustration, IMO. Seems it is Rambo that is getting ground attacked... and he just refuses to die. :D
 

Pang Bingxun

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 22, 2011
5.596
185
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
It is interesting how one can find views that have reversed themselves if one looks thru enough old posts.

The thing is that the view has not reversed, but rather the context has changed. Changing the context changes the meaning.

To clarify, you are saying that interdiction is the better mission to use on retreating troops to prevent their org regain.

Not exactly. Ground attack reduces enemy strenght. Interdiction reduces enemy org and supplies. That is all i am saying. So for winning a war of movement interdiction is usually the better mission as it helps to reduce the duration of land battles more than ground attack could in the short run.

Using interdiction on an enemy that has just lost a land battle tends to be a waste because regaining org is the highest then. Reducing enemy supplies tends to have a more meaningful effect then, so interdiction is not a complete waste either.

The time to use interdiction is just before a moving(or at least not highly entrenched) unit joins a battle or has just joined a battle so that the own land divisions have less enemy org to overcome.

The ground attack mission is less picky in terms of timing, but just like interdiction it is ineffective against highly entrenched(in terms off dug in bonus) units. So using it against units that just lost their dug in bonus due to movement in the form of retreat is the first viable time to use it. It makes sense to use ground attack against divisions that are expected to be part of many further hours of battle which by implications means fast divisions likely not to be overrun in the short run. Slow divisions likely to be overrun soon tend to be better bashed with interdiction, as that will reduce the amount of losses they will be able to inflict on you.

This is a very interesting conclusion... but one I can not confirm even though I have used some very powerful STR to try to damage forts but without any effect. So you are saying that just attacking the defenders with 250 lb bombs will somehow break the concrete works. OK... I'll have to try it next game.

That is right. CAS are the unit best suited for interdiction and ground attack and because of the later they are best suited for reducing fort strenght. It takes a while to wiggle ones braincells around that idea.

One can still eliminate already severely damaged units IF you pound them long enough.

That is an option if your bombers have nothing better to do. The almost constant bombing over prolonged timespans builds up the experience of those bombers(or Multi Role Fighters) just fine.

But the mission is probably best used on land divions with relatively high strenght. Once strenght is reduced to less than say 50% they are easily defeated by proper land divisions. Both interdiction and ground attack are meant to relieve land divisions in a meaningful way. Usually one way to economize bomber capacity. The losses that bombers incur to org and strenght need to be justified and regaining org tends to be a real hurdle.
 

MJF

Lt. General
9 Badges
Dec 31, 2005
1.560
144
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
Another application of ground attack is to use it on units soon arriving at the battlefield. At very high ESE Interdiction is ineffective because the losses in supplies and org are fast regained. The losses in strenght caused by ground attack however will help to win against them and the damage done tends to further exacerbate during land battle because divisions low on strenght will lose strenght at a higher rate.
You mean ground attack on neighboring troops that appear to be moving into a province I am attacking? What about G.A. on neighboring provinces that are or are about to attack my units that are attacking another province?
 

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
The thing is that the view has not reversed, but rather the context has changed. Changing the context changes the meaning.

I see more a case of "changed meanings" resulting in changed context to claim views have not reversed. :)


Ground attack reduces enemy strenght. Interdiction reduces enemy org and supplies. That is all i am saying.

If that really was all you had said - as you state - I would not have disagreed with your PoV. But actually, it is only an introduction to much more you say about the topic. Most of that extra I disagree with.


So for winning a war of movement interdiction is usually the better mission as it helps to reduce the duration of land battles more than ground attack could in the short run.

Point #1 CHANGING MEANINGS - there really is no such thing as "war of movement" except your particular spot-of-the-moment meaning of that phrase - whatever that may be. All war entails movement even if it is just bullets flying or people falling as they die. Had your post followed more conventional phrases such as "static front" or blitzkrieg there might be easier acceptance of your statement. But you precisely inject an undefined phrase to so be able to include or exclude anything you wish - such as divisions moving to the front to say that is "war of movement". But your discussion fails to clarify if the bombing being discussed is targeting the enemy stack player is doing land combat with, or are your aircraft targeting divisions in other provinces moving to that land battle. Unclear scenarios can be interpreted any way one wishes, I suppose, to so result in Point #2 - CHANGED CONTEXT.

Using interdiction on an enemy that has just lost a land battle tends to be a waste because regaining org is the highest then. Reducing enemy supplies tends to have a more meaningful effect then, so interdiction is not a complete waste either.

A unit that just lost land battle is a unit that is retreating - which is also a "war of movement". Or is that excluded from your meaning? Anyway, any unit that just lost battle does not have its highest org then. Org is lowest when retreat starts. But you confuse it with stating instead org regain rate". But the simple fact is, if unit has no org starting retreat, and daily bombing kills all org regain, the unit will finish retreat with nil org. The fact that org regain rates do vary depending on percentage that org is at is meaningless to the discussion because the discussion used the parameters of 1) nil org at start of retreat and 2) all regained org gets eliminated each day of bombing - even when regain rate is at its highest. And if you don't ground attack from start of retreat, once you do begin bombing retreating units, any org regained will never be taken away. So the opposite of what you say is true. If you will ground attack retreating units, do so immediately or they will recover org and do so at their fastest rate in the early days of the retreat.


But rest of your quote is also wrong, and - typically - ends with a contradiction. Reducing supplies for a retreating unit doesn't even occur because you are not damaging the infrastructure. But if it does occur because of some other factor, then it is a harmless effect because the supply will be ample as it is a retreating unit we are discussing here. In short, the correct and most applicable statement to replace your phrase would be, "Retreating units should not be interdicted but ground attacked. That results in small amount of strength damage with elimination of unit possible; and prevents unit regaining org". Simple, direct, and correct! Not confused with non-applicable unmeasurable effects.

The time to use interdiction is just before a moving(or at least not highly entrenched) unit joins a battle or has just joined a battle so that the own land divisions have less enemy org to overcome.

Well, turns out you can not target an individual unit in a stack all doing land battle. What you describe is not possible. The proper statement here is, "Interdiction should be used in conjunction with land attack to help reduce enemy org." Simple, correct and without impossible modifiers. As regards interdiction lessening supplies I challenge you to prove that the low supply modifier in any land battle is due to interdiction by aircraft versus the ground force attacking the enemy. Admit it, there simply is no way you can interdict an enemy corps THAT YOU ARE NOT DOING LAND COMBAT WITH and ascertain what supply loss they incurred because you can not see an enemy's stockpile. But you can see their strength and org - and that is the only things your bombing can be measured.

The ground attack mission is less picky in terms of timing, but just like interdiction it is ineffective against highly entrenched(in terms off dug in bonus) units. So using it against units that just lost their dug in bonus due to movement in the form of retreat is the first viable time to use it.

Very misleading. While interdiction is indeed less effective against dug in units (so is land combat) interdiction is the best air mission to extract whatever org reduction may be possible including dug in units that you are doing land combat with. Neither mission is more or less picky. That attribute does not exist. They are what they are. Yes, once retreat begins, ground attack is more effective than continuing interdiction. It really is very simple when it is not explained in extraneous ways.


It makes sense to use ground attack against divisions that are expected to be part of many further hours of battle which by implications means fast divisions likely not to be overrun in the short run. Slow divisions likely to be overrun soon tend to be better bashed with interdiction, as that will reduce the amount of losses they will be able to inflict on you.

Well, it doesn't make any sense to me because I have not yet found any way to target specific units in a province full of different corps. The fact is that you can target the province (ONLY) and so create an air-to-ground combat that will put the bombers values against the ground values totaled for that province. The only exception is in retreat where - if several enemy divisions retreating - a bomber stack will pick one retreating division as the target.... but player has no control of which division.


CAS are the unit best suited for interdiction and ground attack and because of the later they are best suited for reducing fort strenght. It takes a while to wiggle ones braincells around that idea.

Just look at the CAS hard and soft attack values to realize their superiority for attacking ground forces. That fort levels are destroyed with ground attack but not as much with interdiction is really a flaw. All kinds of bombing would deteriorate any defenses, if possible. Clearly, larger bombs used in strategic bombing would have the greatest effect on massive concrete structures like the forts in AoD, but seems AoD thinks Ground Attack is the proper mission to do that. Makes little sense, but as long as it works, it's fine with me.
 
Last edited:

Commander666

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 24, 2010
5.255
51
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
You mean ground attack on neighboring troops that appear to be moving into a province I am attacking?

I would recommend you completely ignore the suggestion because player can't even ascertain what troops are moving to enemy province to help the defense. While there are indications of which enemy provinces have enemy moving and direction they are moving, you really can not determine if they will actually help the defense of province you are targeting BECAUSE you can not calculate if such enemy reinforcements will arrive before or after you defeated the units currently defending the province. So it is always best to concentrate all to get the initial defenders retreating asap. Just keep your bombers targeting the province you have under land attack for far simpler, safer and more effective results.

The notable exception is IF YOU HAVE A PARATROOPER INVOLVED IN THE LAND BATTLE. That will cause all enemy moving to reinforce the defense to show up in the combat results window. Now you can see exactly which units are where that are moving towards the province you are attacking, and you can attack those other provinces such enemy units are moving from. This can be extremely helpful - especially if your forces have already cause all enemy in the province you attacked to be retreating. Your bombers then are bombing what no longer matters to the defense of that province. You are being prevented from entering that province by the battles from other enemy units in other provinces moving to province you wish to win. Send your bombers to hit those extra enemy right where you find them (battle display gives their location).

What about G.A. on neighboring provinces that are or are about to attack my units that are attacking another province?

Nearly useless as ground attack will get nearly negligible strength loss (because how nerfed) and is inferior for getting org loss. In fact, you shouldn't bomb those units at all because even Interdiction will be negligible as there will not be any noticeable org loss without your land forces contributing thru land combat. If you have the extra bombers and risk is minimal to fly to the extra provinces, then the best mission is probably Logistical Strike to cause a delay in the arrival of those units.
 
Last edited:

Pang Bingxun

Field Marshal
2 Badges
Nov 22, 2011
5.596
185
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • 500k Club
You mean ground attack on neighboring troops that appear to be moving into a province I am attacking?

Yes. Usually that however is the time to use interdiction. The best time to use Interdiction however is at the start of the battle as during land battle no org is regained. Often this is mitigated by units being dug in when interdiction would count most. Getting the enemy to lose dug in bonus helps a lot for interdiction and ground attack.

There is a practical application for this. Make sure that at the start of a war all or at least almost all provinces adjacent to the enemy are indeed empty. Have your units arrive there only 1 or 2 hours after the start of the war. That way the enemy will likely lose its dug in bonus and move its units into provinces apparently ripe for the taking. A nice side effect is that this way you can order your units to continiue their movement to the enemy without delay. This gets rid of up to 5 hours of the 6 hours delay between order and attack that usually is an annoyance at Danzig and Barbarossa.

What about G.A. on neighboring provinces that are or are about to attack my units that are attacking another province?

There the logic would seem to be the same.