1.10 broke Vichy's historical borders

[Ironside112]

mind the colour changes and names, I only noticed this when I was modding, but when Vichy spawns they now lack historical borders due to the new French state added in 1.10. I don't really see the point in it existing to be honest, and if it should, surely just moving the province from one state to the other would be better? It stands out really badly and is really unfortunate considering it does straight up break the historical border.

 

[Fulmen]

This change occurred because in PDX's development of HoI4 both modern borders and alt-history releasables take precedence over borders correct for the time period the game is set in. They did the same thing with the 1939-41 Russo-German border in Poland, changing it in a patch from a near-historical border (the Suwalki area added to East Prussia IRL was missing) to one that matched the modern border instead, as well as with the borders in the Balkans, again changing them in a patch from near-historical to modern ("corrected" in BotB, though they're still not entirely historical).

In this case having a releasable Basque state has taken priority over historical Vichy French borders.

 

[Ironside112]

This change occurred because in PDX's development of HoI4 both modern borders and alt-history releasables take precedence over borders correct for the time period the game is set in. They did the same thing with the 1939-41 Russo-German border in Poland, changing it in a patch from a near-historical border (the Suwalki area added to East Prussia IRL was missing) to one that matched the modern border instead, as well as with the borders in the Balkans, again changing them in a patch from near-historical to modern ("corrected" in BotB, though they're still not entirely historical).

In this case having a releasable Basque state has taken priority over historical Vichy French borders.

Unfortunately you're correct, it wouldn't bother me that much, I can mod it out, but it's just putting me off of IM ever so slightly more, y'know? Either way, I'll fix it myself if Paradox wont lol

 

[TheGlop]

This was always something that baffled me since the time the change was made from the molotov-ribbentrop border to a more modern one. I always read here and there that they can't please everyone on the matter of borders, but in my humble opinion I don't believe that any kind of borders that aren't contextually correct to the WW2 era should take precedence. I can't speak for other players but I feel the amount of time I spend with borders that break my immersion is too high compared to the time I'm satisfied with the modern borders during or after the war. Which is why I can't understand the logic behind this decision.

 

[Iskulya]

I don't get it either.

I think this was one of the territories that Franco wanted to be given to Spain as the conditions of joining the Axis, but that wasn't in the Spanish focus tree and I imagine it still isn't.

 

[Ironside112]

This was always something that baffled me since the time the change was made from the molotov-ribbentrop border to a more modern one. I always read here and there that they can't please everyone on the matter of borders, but in my humble opinion I don't believe that any kind of borders that aren't contextually correct to the WW2 era should take precedence. I can't speak for other players but I feel the amount of time I spend with borders that break my immersion is too high compared to the time I'm satisfied with the modern borders during or after the war. Which is why I can't understand the logic behind this decision.

Personally I'm in a similar boat, era-accurate borders (so as far as I'm concerned, 1936-1948) should be the no. 1 priority in making states, to a degree. I've recently made a mod to clean-up Yugoslavia's borders for example, and while they say how they dont want tiny one-province states, imo it's something that needs to be addressed when you make a mod for this era - Memel, Gibraltar and Hong Kong are all one province states, and they are in my eyes as important as some micro states that should've been added to fix the region, and for France, re-creating Vichy's borders should be the absolute priority, not the Basque being releaseable lmao

 

[Holdy]

Unfortunately you're correct, it wouldn't bother me that much, I can mod it out, but it's just putting me off of IM ever so slightly more, y'know? Either way, I'll fix it myself if Paradox wont lol

Could you possibly leave a link to the workshop file, if you gonna fix the border?

 

[Áurum]

Paradox: "no, we can't add historical occupation of Slovenia because we don't want small states".

Also Paradox: "hey let's add a small state in France nobody asked for".

This change occurred because in PDX's development of HoI4 both modern borders and alt-history releasables take precedence over borders correct for the time period the game is set in. They did the same thing with the 1939-41 Russo-German border in Poland, changing it in a patch from a near-historical border (the Suwalki area added to East Prussia IRL was missing) to one that matched the modern border instead, as well as with the borders in the Balkans, again changing them in a patch from near-historical to modern ("corrected" in BotB, though they're still not entirely historical).

In this case having a releasable Basque state has taken priority over historical Vichy French borders.

That state is too big for a Basque state. Only the province in the south would be Basque.

 

[Ironside112]

Could you possibly leave a link to the workshop file, if you gonna fix the border?

here you go my friend: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2266915287

 

[Fulmen]

That state is too big for a Basque state. Only the province in the south would be Basque.

Wrong.



Heck, French Basque Country is even bigger than it is in-game. Hope I didn't just give PDX any ideas.

Technically you could split it into two small states, one with 2 and another with 2-4 provinces, and have both French Basque Country and historical Vichy French borders represented, but I don't know how elegant a solution that would be. Personally I'd just revert the state to pre-1.10 and be done with it.

 

[Kosaki MacTavish]

Hope I didn't just give PDX any ideas.

Well, if there is one, maybe using the Vichy border to split the French Basque into two

 

[KV5_Radio_Operator]

i don't even get off to correct ww2 borders this just looks aesthetically horrendous

 

[Reinner]

Paradox: "no, we can't add historical occupation of Slovenia because we don't want small states".

Also Paradox: "hey let's add a small state in France nobody asked for".

Yeah, Slovenia is too small, but Herzegovina and Kosovo which are even smaller were added.

 

[Áurum]

Wrong.

View attachment 645853

Heck, French Basque Country is even bigger than it is in-game. Hope I didn't just give PDX any ideas.

Technically you could split it into two small states, one with 2 and another with 2-4 provinces, and have both French Basque Country and historical Vichy French borders represented, but I don't know how elegant a solution that would be. Personally I'd just revert the state to pre-1.10 and be done with it.

How can it be bigger? Just look at the maps. The problem is that Bayonne is incorrectly placed in the game, and as the Basque state has to include Bayonne, it becomes larger than it should be.

Look at the Vichy map, it's clear it doesn't touch the French Basque Country: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/French_State_1942.svg

 

[Fulmen]

Yeah, Slovenia is too small, but Herzegovina and Kosovo which are even smaller were added.

They have for a good while now spent a considerable amount of content creation resources adding all modern countries into the game, even when essentially none of them (the new releasables) make any sense in a WW2 context (and often were not even conceived of as possible political entities as such until decades after the war).

I think what they're doing here is an attempt at catering to every nationality in the world today, making sure everyone can "make their country a superpower", or at the very least not feel "left out" because their modern-day nation isn't playable. But I do believe these kinds of development decisions come at the expense of what the Hearts of Iron series was originally meant to be about: WW2.

 

[Fulmen]

How can it be bigger? Just look at the maps. The problem is that Bayonne is incorrectly placed in the game, and as the Basque state has to include Bayonne, it becomes larger than it should be.

Look at the Vichy map, it's clear it doesn't touch the French Basque Country: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/French_State_1942.svg

Not sure why you're linking me a map of Vichy France; I know what the historical borders look like. Perhaps you've misunderstood something, so I'll reiterate:

The new state they added is clearly meant to represent French Basque Country, hence the Basque core and the protrusion into the Vichy borders. Ironically the protrusion should actually be larger, as IRL the Basque territory is even greater than what the single-province protrusion into Vichy territory covers. Provided they gave the area a few more provinces to better reflect this fact, then it may be feasible to split the states into two and restore historical Vichy borders that way.

As for Bayonne, that falls into the French Basque territory as it does in-game.

 

[Simone87]

In this case having a releasable Basque state has taken priority over historical Vichy French borders.

You got the point here. I'll never understand this priority of modern borders over the historical ones.

 

[Shaka of Carthage]

... I'll never understand this priority of modern borders over the historical ones.

Based on what @Fulmen says, which makes a lot of sense, it is a marketing decision.

 

[Meglok]

For whatever reason it was done, the change does make it a lot easier for Germany to blitz into Spain after taking the Vichy option.

 

[Áurum]

Not sure why you're linking me a map of Vichy France; I know what the historical borders look like. Perhaps you've misunderstood something, so I'll reiterate:

The new state they added is clearly meant to represent French Basque Country, hence the Basque core and the protrusion into the Vichy borders. Ironically the protrusion should actually be larger, as IRL the Basque territory is even greater than what the single-province protrusion into Vichy territory covers. Provided they gave the area a few more provinces to better reflect this fact, then it may be feasible to split the states into two and restore historical Vichy borders that way.

As for Bayonne, that falls into the French Basque territory as it does in-game.

I don't know which maps you are looking at, so I'll repeat: the French Basque Country doesn't get in the territory of Vichy France. French Basque Country is so small it's not even a department itself. In HoI it's very oversized.