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Lorehead

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I can see that. There’s at least a chance of history turning out like it did, which is more realistic than no chance, and it also sounds interesting. How often does this send the Empire into a death spiral, as opposed to a strong emperor saving it?
 

cybrxkhan

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I can see that. There’s at least a chance of history turning out like it did, which is more realistic than no chance, and it also sounds interesting. How often does this send the Empire into a death spiral, as opposed to a strong emperor saving it?

In my mod I also put in other changes, so the effect on vanilla may be slightly different.

Anyhow, from the test games (about ten) I ran using those changes (giving weak claims on the empire to relatives of Constantine Monomachos and a few prominent generals such as Romanos Diogenes, and a strong claim for Alexios), a few observations can be made:

1. A large claimant war where the claimant is not a Doukas has a good chance of happening, particularly after Constantine X dies. There's still a good chance the claimant war might support one of Constantine's other sons not born in the purple. (Although there was two or so test games where no claimant wars happen.)
2. The first claimant war if it does happen, will start anytime from the end of the Seljuk war to the early 1080s.
2. The claimant supported is entirely random, unfortunately, as a byproduct of the arbitrariness of the faction system. Anyhow, from memory, in one game it was Constantine Monomachos' grandnephew (who in-game is a courtier... somewhere), in another where Alexios died young it was his only son. Generally, as stated, since it's kind of random pretty much anybody with a claim could be put on the throne.
4. After a different dynasty is put on the throne, there's a good chance a Doukas will attempt to reclaim the throne in a succeeding claimant war, which can happen anywhere from a couple decades after the game starts to as late as c.1120-1130. If it's early enough, and there's still a good number of claimants running around, there might be another claimant war to put a different Doukas or a non-Doukas on the throne.
5. Ultimately, things settle by the early 1100s and the mid-1100s at worst, and by this time most of the old claimants or their heirs would have died, meaning the pool of possible claimants is again relatively smaller. Generally the "victorious" dynasty - whoever survives as Emperor until then - will likely rule the Empire for a relatively long time afterwards.
6. Due to my changes I don't know if in vanilla this would cause the Empire to collapse completely by the early or mid 1100s (it doesn't exactly in my mod, since that has other changes). Historically the Turks started running into Anatolia, and the Normans in Sicily started attacking from the west, but vanilla doesn't exactly mimic this well unless you start ~1077+.


So essentially the changes I have aren't perfect and don't do everything that one would want in terms of historical plausibility - however, they do seem to mimic at minimum the chaos in the Empire from 1066 until ~1080 (and afterwards) well enough, at least more so than the vanilla set-up.

Tl;dr: Giving claims on the Empire to a few more characters is a good way to help mimic the chaos during the 1070s and 1080s, because unfortunately right now at the 1066 there's only one claimant - Monomachos' daughter - outside the Doukas clan.
 

Sleight of Hand

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Hey guys, don't forget to give the Kaiser a strong claim as well. He was the true Roman Emperor, right? Right guys? Guys?
 

Eldorian

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Don't know that anyone has asked for this, but I'd like to be able to spend gold to convert a holding into another type of holding. Say I win Granada in a war, but it's full up on, say, castles, but I want cities. I'd like to be able to pay to convert the holdings to cities. This is especially going to be important as a Doge, as you'll want more cities, probably.
 

mudcrabmerchant

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Don't know that anyone has asked for this, but I'd like to be able to spend gold to convert a holding into another type of holding. Say I win Granada in a war, but it's full up on, say, castles, but I want cities. I'd like to be able to pay to convert the holdings to cities. This is especially going to be important as a Doge, as you'll want more cities, probably.

I second this. If I take Rome, I want to be able to convert it from a temple.

Though really, it should probably start like that, and the pope's primary holding should be given a different name.
 

Lorehead

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So essentially the changes I have aren't perfect and don't do everything that one would want in terms of historical plausibility - however, they do seem to mimic at minimum the chaos in the Empire from 1066 until ~1080 (and afterwards) well enough, at least more so than the vanilla set-up.

Tl;dr: Giving claims on the Empire to a few more characters is a good way to help mimic the chaos during the 1070s and 1080s, because unfortunately right now at the 1066 there's only one claimant - Monomachos' daughter - outside the Doukas clan.

Would there have been that chaos, though, if the Emperor had won? Maybe hand out a whole lot of weak claims after a major defeat. Someone will come out on top, and if he can avoid losing a kingdom-sized chunk of territory, his family will probably stay there.
 

cybrxkhan

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Would there have been that chaos, though, if the Emperor had won? Maybe hand out a whole lot of weak claims after a major defeat. Someone will come out on top, and if he can avoid losing a kingdom-sized chunk of territory, his family will probably stay there.

Possibly, although it'll basically still rely on the arbitrariness of the faction system.

As another side note, in my current (non-test) game with my mod, the Byzantines lost, but there hasn't been a single claimant war against Constantine yet (I've just stopped playing for today and it was the year 1081 or something) (although granted he's been living for quite a while now despite his bad health). I suspect if he dies then a claimant war might break out in a couple of years.
 

TheDarkMaster

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Wouldn't the area have a good reflection of what sort of a place it was historically if high martial nobles in the nation routinely got weak uninheritable claims to the throne after a major war? If they have a high intrigue score, those might even become strong claims.
 

Talq

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So long as its uninheritable, strong claims for high martial is arguably one of the better solutions.
 

Lorehead

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Separate, minor suggestion. Some testing revealed the undocumented feature that, if you put a bishop of one of the Eastern churches in a patriarchal see claimed by his religious head, he’ll hand it over to his religious head, who will become the ruler’s vassal. E.g., put an Orthodox bishop in the Hagia Sophia, and the Ecumenical Patriarch will take over for him; likewise, the Miaphysite bishop of Alexandria will hand over to the Coptic Pope, or a Monothelite bishop of Antioch to his patriarch. (It does not work for a Catholic Bishop of Rome.) However, if you try simply to give your religious head the bishopric, he’ll become independent, which will, among other things, spoil the complete control you need to mend the Great Schism or restore of the Roman Empire. This is all very counterintuitive.

So:
  • Rather than convert to some notional “parent religion,” there should be an option to convert to the religion of a substantial part of your empire, at least for skeptics. (Being a religious skeptic has nothing to do with being cynical, by the way.)
  • Patch 1.08 had some vast improvements for the Christians of East Africa, the Levant and Armenia. The Christians of Persia still need some of that same attention.
  • There should be a decision to offer your religious head his patriarchal see as your vassal. It should clearly state the requirements and effects.
  • This should be scripted, not hardcoded.
  • It should be easier to force vassalization of a barony within your demense, as opposed to taking it away.
  • Any Catholic calling himself Bishop of Rome should either be a pope or an antipope.
  • A Miaphysite or a Monothelite should also be able to reunify Christianity, and be affected if someone else does. Note that their national churches would still be autocephalous, so the only issue here would be whether they’d be in communion with the new Pentarchy, and I suspect they would be.
  • The Church of the East arguably might not care about the Pentarchy, but, in the unlikely event that an East Syrian Christian (Sartaq?) conquers the traditional diocese of Selucia-Ctesphon (near Baghdad), he should be able to offer it to the Patriarch of the East on the same terms.
  • Something should probably happen if a Catholic conquers the entire Pentarchy, although it would likely be much harder to get foreign rulers to accept Papal supremacy than it would be to get Catholic rulers to reject a disgraced Pope in favor of taking the deal of autocephaly the winning side offers them. Perhaps: no autocephaly, but a lower chance for Orthodox rulers to accept.
  • Perhaps there could be some way to vassalize the Pope, although I note that Henry IV failed.
 
Last edited:

Lorehead

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Vassalizing the Pope would make the game too easy, the taxes you would get from him would allow you to permanently hire all the mercs available to you.

Well, who’s to say that foreigners would keep sending tithes to the Pope when everybody knows he’s just a puppet of the Emperor, same as the Ecumenical Patriarch?
 

riadach

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I wonder could an "implicate in murder" plot work. Would be great if you could assassinate a vassal and impicate his brother in the murder, thereby giving you an excuse to imprison him.
 

spinoza013

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I wonder could an "implicate in murder" plot work. Would be great if you could assassinate a vassal and impicate his brother in the murder, thereby giving you an excuse to imprison him.

It's that extra level of intrigue that the game needs
 

Trunting

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I want to mention a few suggestions for more balanced gameplay in North Africa and Spain. There should be, similar to the Jihad of the Calids, a limited Holy War possibility regarding these areas. Muslims and Christians should be able to only target a single county in Holy Wars before 1180. This would stop a massive expansion from both sides and make room for theflourishing muslim countries in southern Spain and Morocco.

I also want to talk about HRE:

- Remove the kingdoms of Lotharingia and Bavaria.
- Create the Stemduchies of Bavaria, Saxonia, Thuringia, Svabia and Frankonia, which could be able to vassalize Dukes inside of their de jure borders.
- Create, according to the Duchies, different cultures of German: Svabian, Bavarian, Saxonian, Frankonian, Thuringian, which would give a -10 relationship penalty to other people of German culture.
 

Divi

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I want to mention a few suggestions for more balanced gameplay in North Africa and Spain. There should be, similar to the Jihad of the Calids, a limited Holy War possibility regarding these areas. Muslims and Christians should be able to only target a single county in Holy Wars before 1180. This would stop a massive expansion from both sides and make room for theflourishing muslim countries in southern Spain and Morocco.

I also want to talk about HRE:

- Remove the kingdoms of Lotharingia and Bavaria.
- Create the Stemduchies of Bavaria, Saxonia, Thuringia, Svabia and Frankonia, which could be able to vassalize Dukes inside of their de jure borders.
- Create, according to the Duchies, different cultures of German: Svabian, Bavarian, Saxonian, Frankonian, Thuringian, which would give a -10 relationship penalty to other people of German culture.

Bavaria had special status; if you want it removed from De Jure lists, the ck2plus mod makes it titular (so requires Bavaria and two other duchies).
I would roll thuringian and franconian together, and rename Swabian alemanic, but I've argued for that elsewhere.
The problem of having only stem duchies is that halfway through the game, there's no more dukes of Swabia or Thuringia and the duchy of Franconia is a courtesy title of the prince-bishop of Würzburg, who had virtually no power over the other franconian princes. And the dukes of Saxony are in Zeitz and Meissen. Unless dukes which actually existed by end game get a way to make titular duchies, this can't work. It would be the equivalent of limiting english duchies to only anglosaxon earldoms because that's what they have at game start.
 
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