1.07 10th april discussion

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by vilkouak
Very good changes, IMO. I'm worrying only about Chinese tech group now.

I would like to see census tax limit uncapped too. It would give 125% at maxxed centralisation in core provs but it is a hell to keep centralisation at this level with all the revolters popping up after three years of war only...

What on earth are you talking about? Revolts are fewer than ever, due to the RR percentage being on a yearly basis rather than a monthly. In medium to long wars, RR is much more dangerous to the nation because of the reduced economy due to RR than the revolts. Only in very long wars do the rebels by themselves present a threat.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Hive
I agree. I can see a reason for improving orthodox and moslem tech groups, but I think this may be a mistake.

The chinese tech group governs parts of India and eastwards all the way to Manchuria.

Let us see the overall effects before we condemn it.

 

[Hive]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
The chinese tech group governs parts of India and eastwards all the way to Manchuria.

Let us see the overall effects before we condemn it.

True, India and the surrounding area could use a better tech. But if the only way of giving them that is to create a chinese monster, I'd rather not....

Anyway, to be honest, I haven't tested this thesis yet, so I don't know what will happen. I have only read what others say in the forum...

So I agree with Mr. Ebbesen:
Let us see the overall effects before we condemn it.

 

[Thanak]

- Increased the chinese and moslem tech groups quality now. Moslem is now what orthodox used to be a few weeks ago, and chinese is now at the previous moslem level.

Notting for Pagan

I know it's not to logical to have them get tech by themself, but the NA tribe did end up with some technology (rifles...) maybe it would be advisable to lower the tech cost and at the same time increase the effect of whiteman penalty.

That way the indian would stay pretty low until the had a few fight with the euro but eventually the would be able to catch up a little.

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by Thanak
Notting for Pagan

I know it's not to logical to have them get tech by themself, but the NA tribe did end up with some technology (rifles...) maybe it would be advisable to lower the tech cost and at the same time increase the effect of whiteman penalty.

That way the indian would stay pretty low until the had a few fight with the euro but eventually the would be able to catch up a little.

But did they catch up within the game period?

 

[SJG]

Originally posted by Wyvern
It would severly hurt Russia though which is already being penalised by recent changes.

There is more than one way to aid an underperforming country, it doesn't all have to be done with tax collectors. I'm not sure what the root problem with Russia is but there must be better ways of dealing with it than introducing inconsistency.

 

[Hive]

Originally posted by SJG
There is more than one way to aid an underperforming country, it doesn't all have to be done with tax collectors. I'm not sure what the root problem with Russia is but there must be better ways of dealing with it than introducing inconsistency.

Yes, I agree with this. I just don't think that it makes much sense to give 25% census taxes just because it's a core province. It would make more sense if it's given to provinces with state culture - I'm sure Ryazan would have an easier time collecting taxes from Suzdal than Russia had collecting taxes from any of the mongol provinces....

I know that the Russia issue is a problem, but it should be solved by other means. How about adding some conversion of mongol provinces to russian orthodox commands in some Russian events?

 

[Thanak]

Originally posted by kurtbrian
But did they catch up within the game period?

I found this great site on NA tribe history

http://www.tolatsga.org/Compacts.html

This is from that site in the Iroquois History section


Initially, the French took the precaution of restricting guns to Christian converts and limiting the amount of ammunition to preclude any use against themselves. Even a limited supply was sufficient at the time to allow the Huron, Algonkin, and Montagnais to counter the Iroquois, while the French rebuilt their fur trade. The firearms and steel weapons, however, soon found their way into the hands of the tribes for which the Huron acted as a middleman, and as the number of beaver dwindled in the eastern Great Lakes, Neutral, Tionontati, and Ottawa warriors used them to seize territory from Algonquin and Siouan tribes in lower Michigan and the Ohio Valley. The Beaver Wars spread westward during the 1630s and 40s. The Iroquois were Dutch allies. Because of this and past hostility, the French continued to avoid them. Despite a limited trade agreement concluded with the Mohawk in 1627, they concentrated their efforts on trade with the Huron who had strong trading ties to the western Great Lakes.


It does seems that technology did slip in the hand of NA native well before the end of the game

 

[Bastian_Bux]

Well, I think we have two questions to answer:

1.) Are the nations playable
2.) Is it historical

In my eyes 1 is the more important as this is a GAME.
And as of beta v7.april the Iroquois are unplayable. I'll try the latest beta, lets see how it works out.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Väinö I
You could solve this by giving Orthodoxes more extra colonists per year and/or increasing the bonus for frontier country. The fronter country might cause some ahistorical colonization though... Manchu colonizing the Siberia, Aztecs colonizing Mexico...

Frontier bonus will lead to China colonizing more-its one of the two/three countries which can get frontier bonus and have colonizing AI.

Russia, OTOH, is the only Orthodox country with colonizing AI.

I wonder how China will research now, too...

 

[SJG]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Frontier bonus will lead to China colonizing more-its one of the two/three countries which can get frontier bonus and have colonizing AI.

In the few of games I've played with the betas China already goes on a colonisation spree. In all three I have seen China colonise the Indian sub-continent before the Europeans.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by SJG
In the few of games I've played with the betas China already goes on a colonisation spree. In all three I have seen China colonise the Indian sub-continent before the Europeans.

Don't get me started on that. I hate colonizing China (especially if they chose 'invard perfection', and still have colonizing AI, sigh)

 

[Languish]

Yet another fantastic patch... nice going Johan.

 

[Hive]

Originally posted by SJG
In the few of games I've played with the betas China already goes on a colonisation spree. In all three I have seen China colonise the Indian sub-continent before the Europeans.

This is a problem, if you ask me.... if the AI behaves like this, imagine what a human player could do....

 

[boehm]

Personally I like that the 25% census tax bonus applies to cores and NOT to stateculture provinces....this way u have to weight the RR problem caused by TC against the fact that non-core territories (eg. colonies) also benefits the most from a TC! - eg. if all state cultured provinces had the 25% bonus I fear that noone would build TCs in non-core colonies.....AFAIK in real life the new world was pretty much a very bad investment to the english until they decided to start taxing them (ei buying TCs) which then caused many of those areas to revolt...ei. the US....now we as players face some of the same dilemma!

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Originally posted by JohnMK
This'll sure make going for more colonists important. Yet more reason for Russia go to naval oriented.

Perhaps building trade posts should not require a colonist, but rather a merchant (but with colonists being a substitute if there are none left)?

 

[Zander]

The changes look pretty good, giving some bonus to the maligned centralization, making it possible to survive in the pre-TC period, and tightening up the tech levels a little. Count me as another vote towards improving the Exotic tech modifier, though... it makes sense for them to lag, but I don't see why they need to lag more than they were already (which ends up being the effect when everyone else is improved and they are not).

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen
What on earth are you talking about? Revolts are fewer than ever, due to the RR percentage being on a yearly basis rather than a monthly. In medium to long wars, RR is much more dangerous to the nation because of the reduced economy due to RR than the revolts. Only in very long wars do the rebels by themselves present a threat.

Unless you are Ottos with too many religions and centralisation 10, I agree with you . Wish this feature about revolt delay worked...

 

[unmerged(15881)]

My vote

On the TC issue, I vote for giving 25% to culture and not cores. As someone who plays mostly minors without many cores, I'd actually be collecting less money from my additional territoy since I only have cores on 2 and my centralization isn't at 10. Because of the change in governors and inflation, I'm slowly falling behind economically. This would just make it worse.

 

[boehm]

Re: My vote

Originally posted by MJames
On the TC issue, I vote for giving 25% to culture and not cores. As someone who plays mostly minors without many cores, I'd actually be collecting less money from my additional territoy since I only have cores on 2 and my centralization isn't at 10. Because of the change in governors and inflation, I'm slowly falling behind economically. This would just make it worse.

well minors are supposed to be tough...and incidently the whole core concept is exactly a feature intended to help nurture a historical outcome.