1.06 Logistics penalties, logical?

[unmerged(23946)]

Although there needs to be slight tweaking, the game is still playable and it's much more realistic than 1.05c. Everyone that complains that Japan can't just invade DC from Tokyo or that Germany can't invade Brazil or Tannu Tuva from Berlin is just being..... well illogical. A new feature that lets players gain a new supply HQ after occupying a province for a long enough time would fix almost all problems related to the penalty. Anyone else think this would be a better idea then just scrapping it altogether? Or am I just a crazy fool who knows nothing about history?

 

[unmerged(14102)]

Although there needs to be slight tweaking, the game is still playable and it's much more realistic than 1.05c. Everyone that complains that Japan can't just invade DC from Tokyo or that Germany can't invade Brazil or Tannu Tuva from Berlin is just being..... well illogical. A new feature that lets players gain a new supply HQ after occupying a province for a long enough time would fix almost all problems related to the penalty. Anyone else think this would be a better idea then just scrapping it altogether? Or am I just a crazy fool who knows nothing about history?

There have been a number of threads on this already. Iwould agree with you. And the banchmark for how long of time that would require to establish such capability can be easily benchmarked against the Nrmandy invasion build-up. BTW that means well in excess of 5 years ... which in game terms means ....

 

[Dimensional Traveler]

There have been a number of threads on this already. Iwould agree with you. And the banchmark for how long of time that would require to establish such capability can be easily benchmarked against the Nrmandy invasion build-up. BTW that means well in excess of 5 years ... which in game terms means ....

Actually, if you are going to use Operation Overlord as the example then you would be measuring how long between the capture of the Normandie province in June 1944 and when the Mulberries were in full operation. I believe that would be about a month. Including the repair time after the storms.

 

[boromir]

I wouldn't want the logistics penalty to be scrapped. Its a great addition to the game. However, there could be a number of enhancements made I think:

1) different penalties for water and land
2) a cap for the penalty
3) a new supply HQ feature suggested here

All this should be balanced to keep the logistics an important feature of the game.

 

[boromir]

It's important to differentiate between land and water because the Pacific War is completely different than Stalingrad. And the Germans should have a penalty fighting that deep in Soviet territory regardless of how long they held any adjacent provinces.

 

[unmerged(25977)]

I just began playing a new game as Germany using 1.06. On a whim, during the Spanish Civil War, I sent 3 corps to Spain, and made an amphibious landing on the northern coast. From there I took an adjacent territory. I've held the first territory for 2 or 3 months now, and I've had a convoy sending supplies to that territory since I first conquered it. Supplies are building up there, but my units still trace their supplies back to Wilhemshaven and Stettin. It seems to me like if I have a sufficient amount of supplies building up in the theatre, my units should be able to draw supplies from there and avoid the huge penalty for logistics distance.

 

[killerdude11]

how about making it so that occupied provinces (not owned) can be used as supply HQ. it would make island hopping and conquering big nation much easier and prevent a nation from invading other nations across the world

 

[unmerged(29298)]

as it is now, i found it ilogical,

i think that starting to get supplies is not a problem of obtaining a paper, that says that you have annexed a province,

it´s a problem of securing the area and starting to make things work there,

i played a game that had the same penalty, but after a while of having ocupayed a territory, things started to work.

i would definetively change the supply thing not by annexation,
time should be the factor.

i was the one playing against tanu tuva, fighting in the east coast was impossible for infantery, but very easy for airforce,

so i ended conquering only using airforce, was the only was to conquer the east part, the other way was to take the units by ship and land directly there,

when they were landing the had no penaly, but after they secured the beach, they recevied the penalty.
not locial to me.


after i conquered all the province i annexed urss, and magicaly i could invade china easily,

i found illogical that obtaing a paper saying that i annexed Stalin, everything works now...
i would have been better if after a time the railways would have started to work.

 

[killerdude11]

but don't u see how impossible it is to invade Siberia if you don't go for the bitter peace event, I mean not only are your troops losing more org because of long marches, not only are they forced to fight in mountain terrain but now they have to suffer +100% penalty b/c they fighting so far away from Berlin. That’s what so illogical about the game. That’s why I think you should have occupied provinces work the same (supply terms) as a owned country. It will stop people from invading USA directly from Japan, since it is unrealistic. But to get to the USA you first have to take all the Pacific islands, and therefore you will suffer less supply penalties. That’s why Japan can’t win, because if Japan invaded USA they would be supplied from a distant island near Japan, but when the USA invades they are getting supplied from Guam, which isn’t that far away. Therefore Japan will suffer a much higher Penalty then USA

Under my System , Japan would be getting supplied from the nearest conquered Island, which will make America’s invasion of Japan the same as Japan’s invasion of America (if they should get there).

 

[unmerged(14102)]

It's important to differentiate between land and water because the Pacific War is completely different than Stalingrad. And the Germans should have a penalty fighting that deep in Soviet territory regardless of how long they held any adjacent provinces.

I would agree about GER and their attacks on SOV.

As for the Pacific, i am minded of the tremendous difficulties and efforts the JAP expended in their effort to supply Guadacanal., and the efforts that the USA subsequently took on their island hopping ways. Tremendous resources were spent to upgrade their resource bases. You can get a feeling for it in terms of how many SEABEE divisions were formed and assigned in the PAC.

Certainly, something needs to be tuned here yet. But, as yet, i have not come up with a way. And, i think that what we have with 1.06 is lightyears ahead of the previous versions.

I wonder if we put some JAP claims on a few strategic islands if that might not work? ....

 

[unmerged(23946)]

but don't u see how impossible it is to invade Siberia if you don't go for the bitter peace event, I mean not only are your troops losing more org because of long marches, not only are they forced to fight in mountain terrain but now they have to suffer +100% penalty b/c they fighting so far away from Berlin. That’s what so illogical about the game. That’s why I think you should have occupied provinces work the same (supply terms) as a owned country. It will stop people from invading USA directly from Japan, since it is unrealistic. But to get to the USA you first have to take all the Pacific islands, and therefore you will suffer less supply penalties. That’s why Japan can’t win, because if Japan invaded USA they would be supplied from a distant island near Japan, but when the USA invades they are getting supplied from Guam, which isn’t that far away. Therefore Japan will suffer a much higher Penalty then USA

Under my System , Japan would be getting supplied from the nearest conquered Island, which will make America’s invasion of Japan the same as Japan’s invasion of America (if they should get there).

Just being occupied shouldn't be all that's required to turn a province into a supply hub. The Americans didn't turn Okinawa or Iwo Jima into a forward supply base in just one day you know......

 

[killerdude11]

Just being occupied shouldn't be all that's required to turn a province into a supply hub. The Americans didn't turn Okinawa or Iwo Jima into a forward supply base in just one day you know......

they could've if they wanted to.

maybe you the province can be turned into a "supply Hub after around like 1 week"

 

[Dimensional Traveler]

The big problem with trying to include Logistical Distance in any form in the game is that in real life the different nations had varying logistical capabilities. As it stands now, what I suspect happened is that Paradox developed the rule based on the early German advances into the Soviet Union and then applied it universally. The problem with that is Germany had one of the WORST logistic trains of all the combatants. They were literally using horse and mule drawn wagons to supply their armored spearheads. (Note also, the US and UK didn't really have to worry about partisans ambushing their supply routes.)

The Italians were about on par with the Germans. The US was accustomed to shipping 3000 miles across their own country and then forwarding that same material to Hawaii, Guam and the Phillipines after that. The British had a long tradition of a world-spanning empire and were quite familiar with supporting troops scattered to yonder and back. The Japanese were an island empire, likewise familiar with fulfilling the needs of scattered island chains. (Note that they did NOT have the same supply problems in China that Germany had in the USSR despite similar distances and a lower infrastructure in China. Japanese supply problems were caused more by a complete lack of convoy and ASW doctrines, let alone modern at the time ones.) I don't know about France, they weren't involved in enough fighting to tell but also had a far-flung empire. And the Soviet Union basically had an entire rail and infrastructure network shipped to them from the US via Murmansk and Iran.

What should happen is that each country should have a different penalty. Certain techs and doctrines should reduce the penalties. Oceans should not count for distance, the current convoy and supply rules handle that part quite well. And there should be a reduction over time to reflect the conqueror/liberator gaining greater control over the territory, suppressing the partisans, improving the particular roads they need and identifing the best routes. The Logistic Distance penalty should serve to slow runaway advances, NOT to stop all attacks dead in their tracks (which is what the current rule does).

Not that I expect to see any of these suggestions implemented in a HOI 1 patch. It would simply take too much programming and testing to properly implement. Short of that IMO the entire rule should be dropped in 1 while these factors are properly programmed and tested in HOI2.

<edited for spelling>

 

[unmerged(19746)]

Good post dtravel!

I posted a while back about this and am a firm believer that the effect can be obtained from the back end, rather than the combat end. Just slow org regain rates the further you are over land from your supply base.

Long range naval invasions are just fine without the penalty...can you say "Operation Torch"? You just need the shipping to keep the supplies flowing. A feature drawing replacements from your local supplies instead of the home pool would be a better limiter on the naval side than the current system.

I agree that this is really more of a discussion for HOI2 than for any expected change in HOItO(the original).

My $.02

 

[unmerged(17664)]

I thought there was combat modifier for being close to a HQ. HQ should represent supply depot for combat modifiers.This would represent the logistical organization that HQs typicaly have.If the HQ has an uninterupted supply chain home then the HQ would be used to calculate supply distance modifier. Just an idea.

Mort

 

[Anders Lassen]

Turning off Log. Penalties

Is guess there is no way of turning off/down the logistical penalty manually?
Alternatively a way around it? Or do I have to wait for a patch?

I am about to give up my current game. It completely stalls US ability to fight in Europe and works rather oddly. When I invaded Naples after having stationed my troops in French-controlled North Africa there was modest penalty of about -20, but when I advance from Naples further into Italy the penalty is at a crushing -150 as supply is traced all the way back to the U.S. Making it impossible to get anywhere.

 

[unmerged(23946)]

No there is no way to tone it down or delete it without waiting for a new patch. Are you shipping your troops directly from the U.S. to Italy? You need to station new divisions that are just entereing the front in French or British controlled Africa before moving on to Italy, even if you already occupy it.

 

[unmerged(29298)]

they could've if they wanted to.
maybe you the province can be turned into a "supply Hub after around like 1 week"

i played a game where some places had characteristics to function as a supply centers,

so you advance and suffer logistic distance penalties, but once you conquered the place, noramally very well defended,

usually big cities or maybe an island with a nice port,
the place started to work as a supply center, each month better, but it needed time to acondition the place.

the first month i worked at 10 percent, supplying the near by provinces, and each month it increased capabilities, in a year, the supply center was working at full capacity.

now the game has a static system of supply, that can only change through annexation,

and i think that annexation is a political issue that can affect other things,

but if you secure an area, is only a matter of time that things will start to work better there,

if Stalin 1000 km doesn´t want to, is his problem, if he doesn´t sign a paper that says that the land is yours and can work as a supply center is his problem not yours.

the same with the islands that can work as bases. i am not saying that any island could work as a base for ships and supplies,

but there were some that would meet the requirements, that should be marked with some kind of symbol....

do you agree?

 

[unmerged(23946)]

they could've if they wanted to.

maybe you the province can be turned into a "supply Hub after around like 1 week"

It depends on the nation (although I don't agree that the U.S. could have magically reduced all supply problems in one day). The U.S. might have been able to secure a supplybase on a beachead halfway around the world within a week, but the Germans certainly couldn't have.

 

[unmerged(14102)]

Just being occupied shouldn't be all that's required to turn a province into a supply hub. The Americans didn't turn Okinawa or Iwo Jima into a forward supply base in just one day you know......

Exactly my point. Operation Overlord buildup took 2 years ... in ENG. OKI or IWO? longer ... much longer.