1.02 Teaser

[Dinsdale]

And the Irish population was oppressed. Until well into the 20th century, there were signs in business windows advertising jobs which said "Irish need not apply" at the bottom.

This practice was dying out during the late 19th century, I'd say rare to never during the 20th.

And the Germans were even less assimilated. As I said, the immigrants and their decendants still spoke German right up until 1917, when the use of the language was suppressed as a patriotic measure. You can still go down to the Over-the-Rhine neighborhood in this city and see many, many buildings with old German writing over the doors...

There are many families where I live who speak Italian, and whose Grandparent's speak Italian as their first language. This does not mean though that they are not American.

As Derek pointed out, the game penalizes mixed cultures, the US should not suffer such a penalty.

However, wouldn't assimilated pops cause a problem with too many tiny pops being generated?

If an immigrant pop is assimilated, instead of growing from immigration, it will grow from the population growth % and a new pop will appear from immigrants. Could mean far too many worthless pops in provinces.

 

[Demetrios]

So the USA should be seething hotbed of oppressed minorities in Vicky ?????????

Big picture, small picture.

Sure, why not?

I am, as is my wont, simply pointing out examples of the real-life historical situation, despite the fact it would probably be ruinous for the game if actually implimented that way. So please take these posts for instructional purposes only...

 

[MegaPIMP]

Work(factories) and land(RGO) should be the biggest issue when it comes to were POPs move if they move.

So why not have land as provinces with low population? Well sahara would be quite crowded then

 

[DrFoxy]

Sure, why not?

I am, as is my wont, simply pointing out examples of the real-life historical situation, despite the fact it would probably be ruinous for the game if actually implimented that way. So please take these posts for instructional purposes only...

Just to add a little more fuel onto the fire of the unique situation that was immigration to the US in the 19th and early 20th century: 3 of my grandparents were second generation Americans. And you know what? all of them would have always considered themselves to be Americans first even though ethnicaly they were Irish, Norwigian or Finish. Hell my grandfather grew up in Minnisota a state that basicaly consits of only Swedish and Norweigan immigrants and that state wide community considers itself American from the begining.

The fact is that in the real history of the world immigration to America created dual ethnicities for the immigrants. They were both American and immigrants from somewhere, but always American first. So yes in the game they should be assimilated immidiatly. Not that that is the optimal situation for the game, but in some ways this ability to create Americans out of immigrants gave the USA some of the great ability it had to leap onto the world stage over the cours of the 19th and 20th century. So eh there may not be a good way to create a proper immigration modle in the US.

 

[Grosshaus]

Just to add a little more fuel onto the fire of the unique situation that was immigration to the US in the 19th and early 20th century: 3 of my grandparents were second generation Americans. And you know what? all of them would have always considered themselves to be Americans first even though ethnicaly they were Irish, Norwigian or Finish. Hell my grandfather grew up in Minnisota a state that basicaly consits of only Swedish and Norweigan immigrants and that state wide community considers itself American from the begining.

Not universally applicable. Majority of European settlers came back during five years spent in US, so instant assimilation was hardly the case. It applied to those who stayed somewhat, but how do you explain my granddad's cousin considering himself more Finnish than American although he was born in US?

 

[DrFoxy]

Not universally applicable. Majority of European settlers came back during five years spent in US, so instant assimilation was hardly the case. It applied to those who stayed somewhat, but how do you explain my granddad's cousin considering himself more Finnish than American although he was born in US?

Yeah but if they stayed in the US they began to consider themselves to be americans rapidly. Heck I'm more Scandinavian then English and all of my aunts and uncles are either half Norwigan or Finnish. It takes a unique situation like that of the USA to create someone like me now who is ethnicaly mostly Scandinavian but the rest of me comes from all of Europe. And this is within all of 150 years of all of my ancestors coming over.

 

[Grosshaus]

Yeah but if they stayed in the US they began to consider themselves to be americans rapidly. Heck I'm more Scandinavian then English and all of my aunts and uncles are either half Norwigan or Finnish. It takes a unique situation like that of the USA to create someone like me now who is ethnicaly mostly Scandinavian but the rest of me comes from all of Europe. And this is within all of 150 years of all of my ancestors coming over.

What happens in 150 years is different from being immediadly assimilated as you proposed earlier. Another example of the contrary: many who became Finnish leading communists of 1918 Civil War had left to US to be free from capitalist oppression in Finland, then returned 100% Finnish with even more militant communist views because of capitalist oppression in US. Assimilated? Hardly, instead in less than a decade they started to support ideologies 180 degrees opposite to what is thought as the American ideology.

(disclaimer: the term capitalist oppression is used here as a term those people used nearly hundred years ago and has little to do with my personal opinion of the matter)

 

[Varyar]

I don't mind having most immigration flowing to the americas, it's historically correct and the USA had many advantages that no or few european nation had, especially lots of land and an absence of a bureaucratic monster (freedom). But, to some extent european nations should be able to prevent emigration, both through political as well as social reforms, and also through lowering taxes and creating jobs. Very extensive reforms should be able to attract a small amount of immigrants as well, but nothing near the amount that the americas will receive.

However, it should somehow be possible to attract people to ones colonies. It's ridiculous when I can't get even a few thousand belgians of a population of 10 million to move to the Bahamas, despite being willing to do almost anything in order for it to happen. It should perhaps be possible to have different taxes and/or policies and such in colonies compared to the homeland. Or upgrading capitalist/officer POPs to colonial landowners(aristocracy).

 

[Icecold]

Great news!!.

Cheers, Ice

 

[unmerged(23049)]

Tries desparately to bring the thread back to subject of 1.02. So people are concerned about immigration. So what do people want? ....

....When 1.02 comes out the immigration model will be different and IMHO better. Lets dicuss the game after

sorry, dont wanted to talk about the real problems in america, just wanted to answer to the poster before. Yes, 1.02 isnt out yet, so there is no sense to discuss it now.

 

[unmerged(14689)]

Back on 1.02:

I haven't got Vicky yet, so my honeymoon will be with Vicky 1.02! She's gonna be so-o-o-o-o-o pretty!

 

[dtroiani]

I am looking forward to the 1.02 patch. Every time Paradox patches their game, it gets so much better.

 

[Aragos]

Back to the 1.02 thread Derek

I think the solution should be based on the governments and ideological outlook of the main 'exporters' of immigrants. For example, the USA (and Canada, Brazil, Argentina and perhaps Mexico and Australia) should start at a maximum level of immigration (let's say 1836 immigration rate (IR)=100). Modify as below:

1836=100
Special Events (Irish Famine, 1848 Revolutions, Great War in Europe, etc.)=variable amount (+10% to +50%, depending upon severity)

1900=80 (to reflect reduced immigration numbers and stricter emigration laws)

Some negative adjustments:
Shift from Conservative to Liberal govt (Monarchy to CM, Democracy, etc.)=variable -20% for CM , -60% for Democracy)
Social Programs= - to emigration based on level of reforms
USA (etc.) Immigration Laws: Restriction on immigration--- -10% against subject country, but +10% cultural assimilation rate (anti-Chinese laws in the Old West, anti-Irish laws in Northeast, etc.)

This will allow for historical immigration to USA, etc. but give the players the ability to reduce emigration from Europe and China, etc.

I think that the more correct answer lies somewhere between the USA historical immigration patterns and the control players want in a simulation of the era. By adapting both we can give the players more control over their countries (would serfs leave a democratic Russia? What would emigration from Sweden look like if it went Communist?) while obeying the basic strictures of the history.

Just a few ideas.

 

[Dark Knight]

Numerous posts have been deleted. This thread is intended for a discussion of the upcoming 1.02 patch, not for discussions of current politics or US immigration. Stay on topic.

 

[Aragos]

Thx DK

 

[Dinsdale]

What happens in 150 years is different from being immediadly assimilated as you proposed earlier. Another example of the contrary: many who became Finnish leading communists of 1918 Civil War had left to US to be free from capitalist oppression in Finland, then returned 100% Finnish with even more militant communist views because of capitalist oppression in US. Assimilated? Hardly, instead in less than a decade they started to support ideologies 180 degrees opposite to what is thought as the American ideology.

(disclaimer: the term capitalist oppression is used here as a term those people used nearly hundred years ago and has little to do with my personal opinion of the matter)

No offence, but some returning Finns do not exactly reverse the trend of immigrant assimilation in the US. Look at the Civil War, WW1, even WW2 for some examples.

Where are you getting figures for greater than 50% of all European emmigrants leaving the US within 5 years?

Communist theory did not have the stigma which attached post WW2 at the turn of the century, Marxism had not yet been experienced by the world, it was a valid 'new' ideology which offered potential solutions to 19th century capitalism. Finns with communist ideals would have been as natural as priviledged Harvard undergraduates with the same ideology.

 

[unmerged(7313)]

Numerous posts have been deleted. This thread is intended for a discussion of the upcoming 1.02 patch, not for discussions of current politics or US immigration. Stay on topic.

Oh mighty, delete their posts and punish them in the most horrendous way!

Creature was hoping that this thread would be a source of very valuable information concerning forthcoming patch; that the developers and other wise men would come and give more spoilers...

But then those ignoble people came and stole this promising thread for their own ungodly puproses!

 

[Chaplain]

Creature, you are a strange ... creature.

 

[JScott991]

I was hoping we'd see that patch today. I guess Wednesday is now the next chance.

 

[unmerged(12680)]

Not universally applicable. Majority of European settlers came back during five years spent in US, so instant assimilation was hardly the case. It applied to those who stayed somewhat, but how do you explain my granddad's cousin considering himself more Finnish than American although he was born in US?

Do you mean RETURNED to his home country, or simply VISITED his home country? It makes a huge difference...