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Thanks for the tip Walter, I did want to make them profitable because they were IRL, but super profitable is a little over the top heh heh. Haven't managed to build a small arms factory in my last two games so your comment is very timely. I'll certainly look into that.

EDIT: prices of diverse items differ widely in my games, and also change radically within the game. Examples: lumber can be anywhere from 6 and change to 19; steel, from 19 to 85; steamers from 200 and change to well over 500. A rise in steel prices coupled with a price drop for steamers (I've seen it happen several times now) will make a steamer shipyard lose heavy coin; by the same token, cheap steel and expensive steamers mean great profits. I've also started machine parts factories turning out just 0.12 mps a day, and making a profit, while a few years later they'd make 0.16 and lose money because of expensive steel/falling mp prices. So please indicate if the great profits/losses observed by you in the game were temporary or constant.

I've looked at the POPs again, inspired by Crazy_Ivan's suggestion, then did some experimenting with removing soldier POPs, editing POP needs, and comparing these changes against the demand on the world market. I was assuming the demand numbers in the ledger (page 12) are sums of industrial and POP demand. The conclusion: POP needs need to be looked at again, unfortunately. I'm still hoping to get an update out next week though.
 
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Crazy_Ivan80

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Michaelis said:
I've looked at the POPs again, inspired by Crazy_Ivan's suggestion, then did some experimenting with removing soldier POPs, editing POP needs, and comparing these changes against the demand on the world market. I was assuming the demand numbers in the ledger (page 12) are sums of industrial and POP demand. The conclusion: POP needs need to be looked at again, unfortunately. I'm still hoping to get an update out next week though.

Currently I'm playing a game where I'm using your pop-demands coupled with a 3.0 base income. I'm also usnig the VIP pop-mod which seems to give a a different industrial starting set-up from what you made (no fabric factories and such)*

I'm turning a nice profit in peacetime but pay through the nose for war (as it should). Just incurred a massive 60.000£ debt in a war with mexico. And I'm expecting a follow up due to BB, and then the ACW. That said: for a while my poor pops were making money. Then I had to fiddle with taxes and they went broke (and to the 100% - 57% - 0% fullfilled needs). I'm going to complete this game and try to keep up industrialising to see if I can make them turn a profit again. If so it means that the tweaking needed might be less radical than what I first did.

that said, I'm glad I was of help.

*probably the original v1.02 indust. setup as compared to your improved setup. If that's so the pop-mod makes it very hard for the little countries to do anything again.
 
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I don't have any radical changes to POP needs in mind - all I want to do is a little tweaking to establish the right proportions between the needs of the various classes, right now they're slightly out of whack. I hadn't looked at them for a while and your post reminded me there is still some unfinished business there, for which I'm grateful. Thanks also for the extra comments.

This time, instead of asking people to send me saves, I'm going to do the reverse: I'm offering to send you one of my saves, made in the later stages in the game, with everyone (including the poor) enjoying the good life heh heh. It may give you ideas on how to make your POPs rich. If you want to have a look, pm me with your e-mail.
 

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unregistered said:
Definitely like what I've seen so far, but is there any way to eliminate POP merging? I guess it's not a big issue but it annoys me so much...

hardcoded iirc
 
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Update

I thought I'd give everyone a chance to protest/support upcoming changes by advertising them here. They include:

- slightly higher base crime fighting costs (both police and factories)

- POP needs have been revised from top to bottom. Most have been cut. You still won't see POPs swimming in cash until you've built a vibrant economy with plenty of exports, and even then it will involve giving POPs big tax/tariff breaks.

- certain techs now carry an increased crime penalty. Freedom of Trade and all Army Light Arms techs with the exception of Machine Guns now increase basic (police) crime fighting costs by 10% each (50% more altogether).

- factory inputs have been raised here and there. Most importantly, steel mills, erm factories are slightly less proftiable.

- industrial product prices have been tweaked: some have been lowered, a couple - raised. Notably, airplanes/automobiles are cheaper (though still expensive); fabric costs a little more. I still don't have sufficient input on electric gear/telephone/fuel prices to make sensible adjustments there; if you have any applicable insights, please share them with me.

All these are not final yet as I have to play at least a couple of games right to the very end to get a relatively comprehensive picture of what the changes do to the gameplay. In the meantime, if you have any worthwhile input of your own, please post!
 

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Well, first let's me thanks you for your awesome job on the economy of the game !

Then, I'll begin critics... But, have no fears for I don't bite ! :rofl:

I'm playing a lot with Belgium, and it seems to me that the country is underrated under vic 1.02 and your mod does'nt help her too. Why ? Because, with the pop merging problem, she can't run as much factories as there indeed was at the time. So it might be better to suppress one of her fabric factory ( increase the number of pops and the size of the other one ) to remplace it with something like cement or glass, the latter being mass produced at the time and having an international reputation ( "Cristalleries du Val St Lambert" near Liege for exemple ). Belgium was a MAJOR industrial power at the time, and under the current situation it can't be simulated. She can't have enough money quickly enough to colonize Congo in the 70's ( under king Leopold II private impulse ), the very one thing that made her richer than all her neighboors despite her much smaller size and population.

This being said, thanks once more for your efforts !
 

unmerged(24618)

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Ernst: I daresay the sudden drop in cash reserves was caused by a steep rise in WM prices. These do happen from time to time when industrial demand increases sharply. When you see that happening again, please glance at the WM prices and at the POP need satisfaction levels; I frequently see poor POP cash reserves shrink when they increase consumption. Every need item counts as a certain percentage towards fulfilment of needs; for instance, given eight items, need satisfaction jumps in increments of around 12.5%. A POP might have surplus cash purchasing 5 items, begins purchasing a sixth item, and automatically his cash reserve starts to disappear. Remember also to chack on the crime - poor POPs in a province that's affected by corruption will be even poorer. I understand that the effects of the corruption buildings vary, I haven't watched this closely enough to identify the ones that cause the most harm to cash reserves.

The one thing I'm truly happy about is that the AI has really grown hair on its chest, economically speaking. In my current game Austria has over 70 factories in 1905! However I might have made Prussia a little too strong through economic tweaks; twice now they've utterly annihilated the French, taking everything but Paris and a handful of colonies (the AI seems deficient in attacking colonial targets).

At this point, changes in the next update are going to include some financial srew tightening (increased crime fighting costs are pretty certain - if you keep your country crime-fre, they fall to ridiulously low levels). I'll also be looking for ways to cripple Russia's colonization; I was completely taken aback by this, because in the first few test games the Russians were pretty subdued as far as colonisation goes. But now, for four games in a row, they're up to their old tricks again, although at least it now takes them a while to get a foothold in Africa (from what I've seen, not until the 1860s).

As usual your comments are greatly appreciated, thanks for taking the time to post them.

Hello all! I'm a newcomer to the board, but not to EU, HOI nor Victoria. I have also been dumbfounded by the lack of cash reserves for various pop segments in 1.02. I have spent ten or more hours looking directly into this myself. I have loaded various scenarios and examined the pop-needs of primarily Capitalists fluxuate for different reasons.

At this point, I am inclinded to believe this problem may be TWO fold. Based on my observations, it looks like the accumulation of pop-needs (and cash reserves) is based both on market value AND market availability.

I have a game as the Russians where I am easily getting over 7000 / day income with modest to no taxes on the rich segment. I feel like I am really in the money and could afford 0% taxes on the rich AND subsidize to the max. But changing the tax rate nor subsidizing the trade income made ANY different to the % of pop needs met.

But, what I did was save the gave, open of the save file and I could see that there was NO fruit being traded on the world market. I adjusted the production multiplier for Russia for fruit so that she would produce enough to meet her internal needs. This did NOT hardly impact the value of fruit on the world market at all. But now the % pop needs for the segment increased.

The makes me tend to believe it is also a World Market supply issue for SOME of the goods, but not all. Coffee, Tea and some others seem to be unaffected by this and this need seems to be easily met.

But I am tending to believe that certain items run in short supply in various scenarious. For example, glass, wine, liquor, furniture, clothing. And yes, this short supply could impact the price to a degree, but I feel like I can over compensate for demand with no taxes and subsidies.

In regards to the AI and economic development with 1.02, it still has some ways to go and I feel that may be the reason why the system falls apart (for me at least) in the mid to late game. The problem is that, as you pointed out, the AI builds plenty of factories, but it fails to specialize and increase the factory effeciency appropriately to sustain supply/demand needs of the market. For example, Austria may have 70+ factories, but they are repetitious and scattered throughout her cities. The way to maximize production and maximize efficiency is to upgrade existing factories instead of building new ones all over the place. You also get the Capitalist bonus better utilized. So instead of scattering 1-2 capitalists in 20 different provinces, you can put 40 in Moscow.

So, as the Russians, I am outproducing and exporting the world significantly with the same or less number of factories. I am rolling in cash, but my popneeds still fail to be met.

I have also played a scenario as the US and played with the tax rate and seen it behave as you described, but I tend to believe that the market could also supply the popneeds too. With my Russian experiment, it seems to point out that it doesn't matter how much money you have if the good is simply not available.

Also, one more thing I have noticed is that the only thing I can see cash reserves directly impacting is BONDS and not taxes. My Bonds will only increase in all the popneeds are met and thus have cash reserves. But the amount to taxes a garnered from them did not seem to be influenced by their having cash reserves or not.

Anyway, these are just my observations.

- Dutchman
 

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A problem to observe - I've built an airplane factory (in the year 1900), and the airplanes produced cost 0,5$ :rolleyes:
I've checked the price and it's all right - must be something VERY wrong with demand.
 
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Just sent you a pm with my addy asking for a save from that game. I haven't progressed beyond 1850 myself - I have about a dozen games running, will have to forge ahead with just a couple or I'll never get this update done.

If anyone else has an interesting save from later years, please pm me for my address - I'd like to see as many saves as possible. However I'd really prefer saves from games played with Vic 1.02 plus my economy mod ONLY, no other mods - I cannot install selected files from other mods for every save, because I'd go crazy. Also, other mods may have an impact on the world economy even though the economy files were left untouched.

Thanks in advance.

Flying Dutchman: please note the size of your nation's population (or number of POPS) matters a lot, too. A Russia with a daily income of 1000 will still have a much poorer population than, say, Venezuela with a daily income of 100. To the best of my knowledge, POPs 'buy' goods whether they're physically available on the WM or not (goods which don't exist yet are the exception, i.e. the necessary tech advance/invention to make them hasn't occurred at all for any nation in the game). See the POP cash reserves thread in the main forum for more details.
 
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unmerged(24618)

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Michaelis said:
Flying Dutchman: please note the size of your nation's population (or number of POPS) matters a lot, too. A Russia with a daily income of 1000 will still have a much poorer population than, say, Venezuela with a daily income of 100. To the best of my knowledge, POPs 'buy' goods whether they're physically available on the WM or not (goods which don't exist yet are the exception, i.e. the necessary tech advance/invention to make them hasn't occurred at all for any nation in the game). See the POP cash reserves thread in the main forum for more details.

Sorry if I posted to the wrong thread.

Yes, I considered what you had to say regarding number of POPS. I think I have that factored in considering the daily income exceeds 7000 (not 1000) and the tax rate is 0% for the upper class. In addition, I'm super-subsiding.

It looks to me that there simply is not enough goods on the WM to support the needs of the Rich Pops in Russia.

Also note that under this exact same scenario, I change the fruit multiplier for Russia and behold, the % POP needs immediately went up on all of the rich pops. I increased their tax rate and it still was fine. I decreased subsidies and the % remained the same.

It looked more to me to be a supply issue of fruit and not an income issue.

I will continue to experiment some more. I am wondering if the goods listed as '0' in the save game file for the World Market are indicative of the ones of supply deficiencies.

worldmarket = {
cotton = 0.000
dye = 0.000
tobacco = 10000.001
tea = 10000.001
coffee = 10000.001
opium = 10000.001
wool = 201.463
silk = 0.000
cattle = 43.809
fish = 0.000
fruit = 0.000
grain = 64.048
coal = 0.000
sulphur = 0.000
iron = 0.000
precious_metal = 10000.007
timber = 0.000
tropical_wood = 0.000
rubber = 0.000
oil = 0.000
steel = 0.000
cement = 0.000
glass = 0.000
fuel = 0.000
ammunition = 0.000
small_arms = 0.000
artillery = 0.000
barrels = 0.000
fertilizer = 0.000
explosives = 0.000
clipper_convoy = 0.000
steamer_convoy = 103.793
machine_parts = 0.000
automobiles = 0.000
aeroplanes = 1645.655
electric_gear = 0.000
telephones = 0.000
wine = 0.000
liquor = 400.836
canned_food = 0.000
fabric = 0.000
regular_clothes = 0.000
luxury_clothes = 0.000
lumber = 0.000
paper = 10000.001
furniture = 0.000
luxury_furniture = 0.000
}

These value are NOT listed as such on the World Market display at the time the save is done. Is this a *hidden* market?

- Dutchman
 

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thank you

i'm not looking for trouble here, but i just wanted to say thank you to everyone that's working on this mod. you've made victoria playable again. it's too bad that 1.02 couldn't have been lke this in the first place.

-chris
 
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Flying Dutchman: several Vic players including myself have established that POPs are able to buy goods that are not produced at all - see the 'POP cash reserves' thread in the main forum, it contains plenty of relevant details. I'd gladly investigate your findings further to give specific answers to your questions, but unfortunately I really don't have the time; I can only spend so much time with Victoria, many issues are crying out for attention, and I really want to release an update this week. Please do not feel you're being dismissed in any way, I'd love to have enough time to do nothing but fool around with the game and discuss it with you and the others.

Chris: your intro ('I'm not looking for trouble') made me think you were about to slam the mod, but you went on to praise it (which made me sit down to work on it some more despite the fact I didn't intend to tonight - really tiring day). Did you change your mind at the last moment? Anyway glad you like it.

Update: I rebalanced starting factories today to work with the modified POP needs, and things work nicely there. For a while I was tempted to take the suggestion made by Kharybdis elsewhere and just modify the output of certain factories (so much less work), but resisted bravely and now I'm glad I did.

Bryaxis: I looked at Belgium and cannot see a way to replace one of the existing factories with a glass works - Belgium has a fabric/clothing production chain, and if I got rid of the steel mill and the arms industry I wouldn't be able to sleep at night (the Liege steel mills and Fabrique Nationale are probably even more famous than the glass works you mentioned). I double-checked whether glass is available on the WM, and it is. I don't want to add new factories to the existing setup because that would necessitate some major work on the POP files, and that in turn would require so much time nothing else would get done.

Walter: couldn't face installing/reinstalling files today, will try to have a look at your save tomorrow - sorry.

The latest mod version is beginning to look great and I really regret I can't stay up all night testing stuff. I really prefer making money in-game to the same activity in real life lol.

Please stay tuned, I'll try to keep everyone abreast of what's happening. Thanks for the encouragement everyone, I appreciate it.
 
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Michaelis,

Thanks for having taken a look to Belgium. I understand your problem when in front of your job in the economical domain, but I've seen in my five last games ( mainly as Austria ) that Belgium is, in the current configuration, unable to industrialise as she should, to the point she could'nt build any railroads :wacko: :eek: :( And that is most disturbing since the Belgian railroads has a major role in Belgium's history. Moreover, I've seen she is unable to industrialise while she was number 2 or 3 ( some even say 1 at some times ) industrialised power in the middle of the 19th century and a major economical power until WW1, and the destruction of her factories by retreating germans. And she owned a quite big and profitable colony in Congo, taken before the Congress of Berlin and confirmed in her rights over this land by the Congress.

I'm currently working on a complete set of events for Belgium in the VIP thread BeNeLux to simulate a more active political life ( which was quite active at the time... )... ( All help that can come is welcome, by the way ) and from what I've seen, the major problem is in the POP's merging... Belgium can't subdivise her POP according to her needs ( it was much easier to maintain multiples factories when a new pop was created each time one reached 100 000 :rolleyes: ).

Well, since I've heard in another thread that it is impossible to change this POP's merging issue, I suppose that you've done your best with the tools you had and I thanks you for it.
 

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You could just start in 1914 by yourself and build a plane factory. If there's something wrong with the mod itself. the price twitch will reproduce under any given circumstances. If not, then it is something with my Vic. BTW, I'm giving tanks a look somewhere around today.
 
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Walter: Just completed a quick test w/airplanes (Sweden in 1914), there was nothing odd - everything perfectly normal, no price twitches. Mind you demand was a bit lower than I expected - they cost 192 with basic price set to 200, will have to jack up the basic price a fair bit. After all planes can't cost less than lux clothes and furniture lol. FYI, tanks were around 700.

It increasingly looks as I won't have much more time to work on this mod, and anyway I suspect that 1.03 is at worst 4-5 weeks away. So the upcoming update is going to be the last beta of this mod. After its release I plan to give things another week or so before releasing the one and only 1.0 mod version. Therefore I'd like to appeal one more time for input from anyone who is playing Vic with *this mod alone*.
 
Last edited:

Walter Hawkwood

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Aw, that means I'll have to dig my Vic for answers. Starts looking quite detective to me... Anyway, expecting a new version with eagerness! Yours is still the best-working economy mod around. Ever considered supplying it to VIP? Oh, BTW, never considered giving officers' demands small arms? Sounds realistic to me, don't know if unbalancing.
 

cmstea0

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when i said that i was aiming that statement more towards any moderators / paradox guys that might be reading. i don't want them to think i'm some forum troll or something.

btw, i don't know if anyone has noticed this or not, but a large, un-industrialized country like brazil can build HUGE cash reserves by simply selling commodities, not building an army, and researching culture and industry techs.

i finished the game with a few million in the bank, several thousand prestige points, and a whopping 3 division army.

yay brazil!
-chris
 

pimparel

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cmstea0 said:
i finished the game with a few million in the bank, several thousand prestige points, and a whopping 3 division army.

yay brazil!
-chris

Play my MOD (in the siganature), it is compatible with 1.02 economy (in fact I made the initial tests with it), just install my files over them. You won't survive with 3 divisions, I GUARANTEE!!!