0.1.6 WIP/Previews

[Gurluas]

ESO actually had a book theorizing about it.
Apparently the White-Gold tower influenced the climate over millennia to make it suitable to whoever lived around the tower.
A tropical jungle was more suited to the Ayleid. After the Alessian revolts when Men slowly became the majority, the climate slowly began to change.

But again, it's an in-universe book. And we all know how In-universe lore is in Elder Scrolls, it may very well be bogus, especially when the person writing the book states that he/she is just laying out a hypothesis.

 

[Onebitsoul]

(and the Iberian peninsula is partly a desert because of it, perhaps that is Cyrodiil's future)

No because Elder Scrolls logic.

 

[Darsara]

No because Elder Scrolls logic.

"Why is the coastal desert peninsula on the same latitude as the lush, temperate forests (one of which is mountain-locked), and another temperate area on the same latitude as a cold tundra and arctic area?"

"Cause reasons."

"And there is a dense, semi- to full tropical forest area right beside a desert, what sort of wind patterns-"

"REASONS!"

 

[Ezumiyr]

No I'm not confusing slavery and servitude, but rather commenting on the morality of the Thalmor. You're arguing a straw man. If they condone the torture of servants and indentured servitude I don't think the Thalmor as portrayed directly by several character would have any qualms about slavery, and that was my point. Now I will conceed I may be right, or wrong, I might be poorly stated as well, but you are not really arguing to my point. So I have nothing to say really.

... and that's exactly what I'm saying: you're confusing two different things. In the Elder Scrolls world, slavery is not always perceived as a bad thing. It's not linked with morality. Our own perception of slavery is that it's a bad thing for two reasons:
1- In our mind, we associate slavery with bad treatment. Just like the Talmor does.
2- A slave is a strict inferior to everyone that's free, and that's bad. But in the Elder Scrolls (just like in our antiquity by the way), some people are superior to others.

I think that in the Elder Scrolls, the most enslaved people are Argonians and Khajiit (but I might be wrong, I played Morrowind more than the others). They are not treated like inferiors because they are slaves, but they are slaves because they are viewed as inferiors. So indeed, there is a direct link betwenn the two things... but this is not necessarily perceived as being morally wrong. The goal is that the player will make a decision (generally he will try to free the slaves and get a reward for that).

So I think I might reconsider my opinion: slavery means different things in different areas of Tamriel. The slave of a vampire is not the same thing as the argonian slave in Vvardenfell mines... and there are probably other kinds of slave, whose common point is to be the property of their master, and generally they are not the property of a state or a ruler. In fact, the raiding mechanics are perhaps the best way to model the way slavery exists in Tamriel, otehrwise it would be too much work for nithing... Is there any example of a noble person being enslaved? Usually when you seize a noble, you ask for a ransom or try to extort him (just like in CK2 without mods).

A other thing that we might need to considerer are the inspirations for the elves. As a very ancient cultures, they sometimes have a behaviour that recall the ancient greeks. It might explain why slavery is an elvish thing (even if vampires or Tsaesci may have slaves as well).

By the way, don't take it too seriously, we are talking about fictionnal statements about a fictional world... At the end, everyone can be right about that question. I think we should preferably choose the one that's the more interesting as a mechanics for the mod.

 

[Novacat]

I think that in the Elder Scrolls, the most enslaved people are Argonians and Khajiit (but I might be wrong, I played Morrowind more than the others).

The Dunmer enslaved everybody (Source: The Marksmanship Lesson), but they only actively went after the Argonians. However all the provinces have had human trafficking to the Dunmer slave trade to some degree, with only Elsweyr being notable in that its endemic (largely due to the power of organized crime there compared to other provinces), these are the reasons why while Khajiit and Argonians tended to be the most common slaves, the Dunmer enslaved just about everybody.

The Ayleids enslaved Men, and the Altmer enslaved Goblins, Ogres and Men (although the enslavement of Men ceased a long time ago), and the Dwemer enslaved Falmer. Theres really no evidence of the abovementioned races enslaving anyone else.

All of the other books I have read seem to indicate that Morrowind was the only province that possessed an active slave trade.

Not true, you hear about the Thalmor from the Thalmor themselves for example those that represent them and their attitudes, from your own interactions with them, and from their ambassador, those at the embassy and in Markarth, as well you hear about them from the Imperials, Dunmer, other Altmer, in books ect ect.

Well, the real question is weither you would consider the citizens of a totalitarian state to be slaves.

 

[das]

Well, the real question is weither you would consider the citizens of a totalitarian state to be slaves.

Not in the usual definition used by historians, where slaves have to be privately owned. At any rate it seems to me that Thalmor citizens (you know, Altmer and maybe Bosmer that are not political opponents or otherwise disqualified) probably do have various civic rights that are largely respected; they just can be deprived of them, sometimes for questionable reasons; but that's different from slavery.

 

[Onebitsoul]

Not in the usual definition used by historians, where slaves have to be privately owned. At any rate it seems to me that Thalmor citizens (you know, Altmer and maybe Bosmer that are not political opponents or otherwise disqualified) probably do have various civic rights that are largely respected; they just can be deprived of them, sometimes for questionable reasons; but that's different from slavery.

The Aldmeri Dominion is basically Nazi-Germany of the Elder Scrolls. Or maybe Soviet Union. Or North Korea.

 

[Vanhal]

The Aldmeri Dominion is basically Nazi-Germany of the Elder Scrolls. Or maybe Soviet Union. Or North Korea.

More like "here be dragons". We know very little of Summerset, Valenwood and Elsweyr even when they still were part of the Empire. We know even less of what was there after forming of Dominion. Only points of view on Dominion we have are certain Nords opinions and brief meetings with few Dominion representatives. Which tell us more of relations between Empire, Dominion and Skyrim than of the Dominion itself.

 

[Onebitsoul]

More like "here be dragons". We know very little of Summerset, Valenwood and Elsweyr even when they still were part of the Empire. We know even less of what was there after forming of Dominion. Only points of view on Dominion we have are certain Nords opinions and brief meetings with few Dominion representatives. Which tell us more of relations between Empire, Dominion and Skyrim than of the Dominion itself.

Well the Thalmor do think they're above everyone else, they also like to act like Gestapo, kidnapping people and torturing them to confess something.

Oh, they also basically started a world war.

 

[DarkReborn]

Only points of view on Dominion we have are certain Nords opinions and brief meetings with few Dominion representatives. Which tell us more of relations between Empire, Dominion and Skyrim than of the Dominion itself.

There's the Bosmer at the Thalmor Embassy that talks about ( and has suffered because ) the purges in Summerset though, so at least a bit of it is more than just Nord cultural posturing or a result of the Dominion-Empire relations. And that's not even talking about the eugenics experiments they supposedly played on the Khajit according to MK.

 

[fargoniac]

Will you update the names from this?

bump

 

[Novacat]

bump

Up to the localization team. Considering the work piled up for them is already very high, it probably will not be in 0.1.6 simply due to much higher priority stuff.

 

[alzhen]

... and that's exactly what I'm saying: you're confusing two different things. In the Elder Scrolls world, slavery is not always perceived as a bad thing. It's not linked with morality. Our own perception of slavery is that it's a bad thing for two reasons:
1- In our mind, we associate slavery with bad treatment. Just like the Talmor does.
2- A slave is a strict inferior to everyone that's free, and that's bad. But in the Elder Scrolls (just like in our antiquity by the way), some people are superior to others.

I think that in the Elder Scrolls, the most enslaved people are Argonians and Khajiit (but I might be wrong, I played Morrowind more than the others). They are not treated like inferiors because they are slaves, but they are slaves because they are viewed as inferiors. So indeed, there is a direct link betwenn the two things... but this is not necessarily perceived as being morally wrong. The goal is that the player will make a decision (generally he will try to free the slaves and get a reward for that).

So I think I might reconsider my opinion: slavery means different things in different areas of Tamriel. The slave of a vampire is not the same thing as the argonian slave in Vvardenfell mines... and there are probably other kinds of slave, whose common point is to be the property of their master, and generally they are not the property of a state or a ruler. In fact, the raiding mechanics are perhaps the best way to model the way slavery exists in Tamriel, otehrwise it would be too much work for nithing... Is there any example of a noble person being enslaved? Usually when you seize a noble, you ask for a ransom or try to extort him (just like in CK2 without mods).

A other thing that we might need to considerer are the inspirations for the elves. As a very ancient cultures, they sometimes have a behaviour that recall the ancient greeks. It might explain why slavery is an elvish thing (even if vampires or Tsaesci may have slaves as well).

By the way, don't take it too seriously, we are talking about fictionnal statements about a fictional world... At the end, everyone can be right about that question. I think we should preferably choose the one that's the more interesting as a mechanics for the mod.

It is true that slavery is not always seen as a bad thing, I study history for my living and that's been just as true in our world. I'm not confusing anything; though if am confused me not knowing wouldn't mean I'm not, but I don't think you've shown anything of the sort (not trying to be antagonistic, I think you're wrong, but I do like arguing/debating/discussing with you regardless). Also look the Twin Lamps slavery is definitely linked to morality in the Elder Scrolls not to dissimilarly from our own world. Examples being found in the book " last scabbard of akrash" or the person of the Dunmer Ilmeni Dren. In the real world even "free" Greeks owned slaves without seeing it as immoral; heck many ancient Greeks thought that in-order for some to be free, others must be slaves... and there are many more examples. You just don't get what I mean apparently, and your producing another straw man argument, because alot of what you said I never said wasn't true, or agree with, and other parts no so much. My point is slavery always has to do with morality; whether it permits or disallows it, you must have an ethic that allows slavery to exist before you will allow it. I think the Thalmor have ethics that allow it, and indeed encourage it. Many Thalmor; though not all Altmer it must be said, seem to have an ethic similar to the nazis, and they used slave labor too. Anyways I got work next days to deal with, and I'm also a full time student going for a Bachelors in history, the reason I bring this up is that I wouldn't in the least wish to leave you hanging because that seems unfair, but I started this discussion my day off and if you wish to continue this conversation with me; I wouldn't mind at all, but should do it by P.M. because it may take a few days to get back to you and it's doubtful I'll keep searching through the comments. One last point though; there are different types of slavery rather than Chattel slavery which is most often the colloquial usage of the term.

 

[alzhen]

Jungle doesn't just mean the classical "Amazon rainforest" tropical jungles, a jungle is any piece of land covered in dense overgrown foliage. The black forest at one point could've been called a jungle, but it's still in the heart of Europe and made up of your typical European trees. Tiber "waving his hand" and turning it from jungle to fertile valleys can just be taken as land clearances if you want to, something we've done a lot of it in Europe (and the Iberian peninsula is partly a desert because of it, perhaps that is Cyrodiil's future). That said, I vaguely recall something about Cyrodiil being the tropical type of jungle, but I also remember something about Tiber changing Cyrodiil not just in the present, but in the past and future, so to the casual observer it has always been what it is "now".

Very good points that I hadn't considered in that way, don't see a real flaw in it at the moment, though in should be said not totally out of place with my own earlier thoughts. Thank you

 

[unmerged(547912)]

Well the Thalmor do think they're above everyone else, they also like to act like Gestapo, kidnapping people and torturing them to confess something.

Oh, they also basically started a world war.

Everyone thinks they are above everyone else. Nord, Dunmer, Altmer, Imperial, even Khajiit. They are all racist.

 

[aruon]

Everyone thinks they are above everyone else. Nord, Dunmer, Altmer, Imperial, even Khajiit. They are all racist.

not really racist, more like culturally xenophobic, which is exactly the system seen in CK2 where anyone of a different culture no matter how slight likes you less. that being said, only the thalmor (and also the nord armies descended from of the 500 companions but that's another story) really go for genocidal aspect. and that's partially influenced by their religion.

 

[Gurluas]

While ESO is set roughly a thousand years prior to the modern age, you can get an interesting insight into the Geography and culture of the Aldmeri races.
The Altmer in particular tend to be quite intolerant of other races/cultures.

The ESO Aldmeri Dominion is far more benevolent unlike the Skyrim one.
Queen Ayrenn is interested in doing the best for all of Tamriel.

 

[Vanhal]

Everyone thinks they are above everyone else. Nord, Dunmer, Altmer, Imperial, even Khajiit. They are all racist.

Now you must think about Tiber Septim achievments...

 

[Onebitsoul]

While ESO is set roughly a thousand years prior to the modern age, you can get an interesting insight into the Geography and culture of the Aldmeri races.
The Altmer in particular tend to be quite intolerant of other races/cultures.

The ESO Aldmeri Dominion is far more benevolent unlike the Skyrim one.
Queen Ayrenn is interested in doing the best for all of Tamriel.

But Ayrenn does claim that "humans are still young" and that they "do not understand".

But yeah, she's nice.

 

[Novacat]

Now you must think about Tiber Septim achievments...

Not much of one if you think about it. Tiber Septim took a page out of the mongol conquests, he was generally kind to those who surrendered, but he put entire cities that resisted to the sword. Then he promptly had the Imperial propagandists erase those incidents from history to make him look more like a benevolent and kind ruler than he really was.