Why Congress Poland should be on the map in 1836... in about 26000 characters

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In Vic 2 and EU 4, release -> play as release the target nation as a puppet, iirc.

You'd still have your fight for independence.
The point is not to do it with release and play as. The entire point of this post is to prove that there is enough legitimate reasons to have it being there from the start.
Another thing is whether Congress Poland and other minor Polish tags will actually be in the game. In Vic2, vanilla, Poland was only one tag, so if you released it from Russia, you would control not only land of Congress Poland but also lands connected to Poland in 1921 treaty of Riga for example. Not an ideal solution.
 
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The point is not to do it with release and play as. The entire point of this post is to prove that there is enough legitimate reasons to have it being there from the start.
Another thing is whether Congress Poland and other minor Polish tags will actually be in the game. In Vic2, vanilla, Poland was only one tag, so if you released it from Russia, you would control not only land of Congress Poland but also lands connected to Poland in 1921 treaty of Riga for example. Not an ideal solution.

Also, I would argue that Poland should have an agenda even when played by AI because it was politically and military present and important during the whole XIX century.
 
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Many, many, many places had significant regional autonomy in the era. Poland was one. I don’t think that alone is a good reason.

That said, unlike most of those regions, Poland, importantly for a game about industry and politics, was actually significantly different from the rest of Russia in terms of the level of industrialization, standard of living, literacy, life expectancy, and general access to goods and services. And for that reason especially, in this game, I think it’s important, because differences in laws can help to allow for the economic and political differences in pops that won’t exist otherwise. Especially since Polish Catholics will presumably be horribly oppressed in Russia otherwise, which will result in a lower standard of living, literacy rate, and life expectancy. Which is the opposite of what should be the case.

I approve. Subject Poland please.
 
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Ok so only now I have realized that Finland is a vassal tag in the game lol, which kind of changes the debate because it indeed makes no sense for Poland not to be playable if Finland somehow is.

This combined with valid arguments of both sides have stirred a doubt in my previous "disagree" position.

No matter what Pdox does regarding not - independent entities and their playability, it should be globally consistent.

Now I am wondering if some Indian vassal states shouldn't be playable if Finland is playable as well, it would constitute an alternate path to the obligatory free India movement, maybe even less painful than doing it as free Sikhs...
 
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Ok so only now I have realized that Finland is a vassal tag in the game lol, which kind of changes the debate because it indeed makes no sense for Poland not to be playable if Finland somehow is.

This combined with valid arguments of both sides have stirred a doubt in my previous "disagree" position.

No matter what Pdox does regarding not - independent entities and their playability, it should be globally consistent.

Now I am wondering if some Indian vassal states shouldn't be playable if Finland is playable as well, it would constitute an alternate path to the obligatory free India movement, maybe even less painful than doing it as free Sikhs...

If you take a look at screenshot available on steam, multiple Indian tags are available:
1638631942055.png
 
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Ok so only now I have realized that Finland is a vassal tag in the game lol, which kind of changes the debate because it indeed makes no sense for Poland not to be playable if Finland somehow is.
A dev addressed to that in the first page of this thread.

I suspect this thread might have convinced Wiz to, far from making Poland playable from start, make Finland not playable instead.
 
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Ireland was significantly different to Britain in industrialisation, standard of living, access to goods and services, etc etc. And Mississippi was significantly different to Vermont. Places being different to each other, or having a very nationalistic userbase, isn't a reason to rewrite history and pretend countries were secretly strong autonomous nations able to resist their overlord by clicking the Diplo button. Sometimes they weren't.
 
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Ireland was significantly different to Britain in industrialisation, standard of living, access to goods and services, etc etc. And Mississippi was significantly different to Vermont. Places being different to each other, or having a very nationalistic userbase, isn't a reason to rewrite history and pretend countries were secretly strong autonomous nations able to resist their overlord by clicking the Diplo button. Sometimes they weren't.
Ireland was horribly off because of discrimination and oppressive laws, and a lack of effort to industrialize the region, which is already simulated. Mississippi was worse off than Vermont, but to nowhere near the degree of difference between Ireland and Britain. This is also simulated by industrialization and the fact that the economic model of the South is agricultural and slave-based and results in a lack of good jobs or a consumer base.

Poland, conversely, had a higher standard of living than the rest of Russia, whereas the game simulates them as horribly discriminated against for both their culture and religion. It‘s backwards. This issue does not exist in almost all other examples.

I don’t think Poland should be able to resist their overlord. I don’t think being a subject would mean that would be the case either, unless being a subject doesn’t mean much ingame, and unless they, inexplicably, gave Poland a population big enough to rebel against Russia, which is a little insane.
 
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A tangent to the whole debate raging here: Personally I would love to see as much decentralization and autonomy represented as being separate actors as possible.

Many big empires (I'm looking at you Qing with its Viceroys & clients) would feel more authentic in having local governments with their own agendas, trade, and even separate foreign relations.

Managing the rebellious or scheming attitudes of vassals is my favorite aspect of the Crusader Kings series and I'd love to see a bit of it in Victoria 3. I've always felt that the purely cohesive blobs we see in other PDX titles were a bit short of feeling authentic.
 
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When it comes to determining both de jure and de facto autonomy of states it's not only important to look at the available institutions, but also how much power these institutions (and combined the government) had in levying and controlling their own resources. Here I think is where we see a great distinction and divergence between Russian Finland and post-1831 Congress Poland.

Finland not only had a separate administration from the rest of the Russian Empire, its administration was given a lot of rights (until Nicholas II's more intensive Russification policies) over its (section of the) army, navy, economic and fiscal policies. In comparison Poland at this point was, at best, a special administrative subdivision at this point of time. The same goes for states such as Posen and Limburg - on paper they could have similar rights to Finland, but under the Prussians and Dutch respectively these states were at most subdivisions that exist to please some group or foreign power with no actual de facto relevance.

That's also why some colonies merit being their own autonomous tags in Victoria III: both the large territorial colonies as well as colonies with a large population of established settlers tended to have at least some significant autonomy over their own territory, with control over both their economy and military (the Cape Colony's Cape Dutch commandos, the EIC army etc.) as well as being able to direct their economic power to ends that those colonies required.
 
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A tangent to the whole debate raging here: Personally I would love to see as much decentralization and autonomy represented as being separate actors as possible.

Many big empires (I'm looking at you Qing with its Viceroys & clients) would feel more authentic in having local governments with their own agendas, trade, and even separate foreign relations.

Managing the rebellious or scheming attitudes of vassals is my favorite aspect of the Crusader Kings series and I'd love to see a bit of it in Victoria 3. I've always felt that the purely cohesive blobs we see in other PDX titles were a bit short of feeling authentic.
You're viewing Russia as a monolithic block here.

Across various areas of Russia people had different standards of living. Life in Tomsk was far different than life in St. Petersburg
 
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View attachment 781853

And so, I took it personally...

Hi everyone.

Whenever there is a topic about Congress Poland, be it on the forum, discord or other social media, the main go-to argumentations is "By 1836 Polish autonomy was gone" and behind this argumentation most of the times lies this small part of wikipedia related to Kingdom of Poland:



While this excerpt in general IS correct, it is very simplified which does not accurately portray Polish situation in 1836, start date of the game, which is understandable, after all, it is essentially couple lines of text that tries to describe the process of turning a state, or a satellite state, into integrated part of another entity. It will never be fully accurate, but alas, it does not have to be most of the time.

So if I have already posted the main argument of opponents to playable Poland and even agreed to it, what even is the point of this post. The main point of this article is to show that in 1836 Kingdom of Poland still maintained large parts of its autonomy. To do it I will describe historical background behind the Kingdom of Poland and most importantly I want to show the process of losing the autonomy between the fall of November Uprising in 1831 up to final dissolution of Congress Poland in 1864, then compare the process to the in-game mechanics of vassals and satellite states and prove that there is in enough reasons to add Congress Poland as a tag in 1836 as at the start date the overall levels of autonomy has not yet been decreased far enough to justify the annexation.
To do so, amongst other sources, my two primary one will be:
- Historia Polski 1795–1918 (1968) by Stefan Kieniewicz (History of Poland 1795-1918) as a general source of information about state of Congress Poland in this timeframe.
- Powstanie Styczniowe (1972) by Stefan Kieniewicz (January Uprising) - monography regarding January Uprising and its causes.
Professor Stefan Kieniewicz (1907-1992) was one of the most important researchers and historians working on history of post-partition Poland, permanently connected to Institute of History of Warsaw University and Institute of Polish History of Polish Academy of Sciences. He was also a chairman of Comitee of Historic Sciences of Polish Academy of Sciences. Throught 60 years of research he produced dozens of books, several thousands of articles, papers or lectures published in Poland and abroad. By all accounts a leading figure in Polish historiography related to the topics of XIX century Poland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Kieniewicz
To supplement these sources I will be using other, more detailed wikipedia articles as well as some youtube videos, most of them in Polish.

What I would propose is adding Congress Poland as a playable tag in 1836 with government setup as the same as the one of Grand Duchy of Finland as the situation of Congress Poland shows significantly more similarities between these two entities than for example with annexed earlier Ukrainian or Lithuanian parts of PLC which were immidiately incorporated into the Empire and further reductions of autonomy not only should be up to actual player actions but also should result in the war, just as it did historically (which also seems to be how annexation of vassals actually works in the game according to dev diary). In further parts of this post I will bring

Now we have main thesis of the post set, the point of the post set, so without further ado, as this part is already 5000 characters long, let's begin.

Part I:

Congress Poland, or officially Kingdom of Poland, has been estabilished following the end of Napoleonic wars in 1815 during Congress of Vienna. In 1813 following disastrous Russian campaign of Napoleon Russian troops took control over all of Polish lands, not only these of Duchy of Warsaw but also Gdańsk which used to be part of Prussian partition. While initially Alexander I of Russia wanted to connect of all Polish lands within Russian Empire during Congress of Vienna he faced opposition from Austria, United Kingdom and Burbon France, while he managed to get support of Kingdom of Prussia in exchange for, what later became, Grand Duchy of Posen, and annexation of Kingdom of Saxony, the opposition from other great powers, which went as far as public proclamations of support for pre-partition Poland made by Metternich, Talleyrand and Castlereagh, forced Alexander to give up on this plan. Even then the subsequent Kingdom of Poland that was awarded to Russia was still larger possession than the area taken during 3rd Partition of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth as it consisted in part of lands of what used to be Prussian partition.

During Congress of Vienna another matter than territorial extent of Congress Poland was administration and what Kingdom of Poland is actually supposed to be. One of the main advisors of Tsar in relation to Polish issue was Adam Czartoryjski, Polish nobleman, who created the project and later implemented idea of Constitution of Kingdom of Poland. This document, while estabilishing permament connection of Kingdom to the Empire, issued that newly created Kingdom would have its own government, army and use Polish as its national language. At the end of 1815 this document was signed in Warsaw by Alexander I Tsar of Russia and now also a king of Poland.

Constitution as a document maintained executive power in hands of the king, in case of his absense he could appoint a viceroy. King also appointed senators and ministers in the government. Some parts of administration from Duchy of Warsaw remained, in particular Council of State which was supposed to create projects of new laws as well as some parts of judiciary power. The actual government was called Administrative Council which was divided into 5 committees in which, as mentioned earlier, positions were taken by people appointed by the king. Other than government constitution also created a parliament, Sejm, which consisted in total of 128 elected MPs. Sejm was supposed to vote on resolutions which were introduced by the king or viceroy. First viceroy appointed was Józef Zajączek - general of Napoleons army, however after his death in 1826 the seat remained empty until appointing Ivan Paskevich in 1831.

Formally the constitution was one of the, if not the most, liberal constitutions in Europe, it provided vote to around one hundred thousand people, which was more in Burbon France at the time, and allowed average denizen freedom of religion, freedom of speech and personal inviolability. It's important to also note that Kingdom itself also had its own anthem and coat of arms which combined with parliament and constitutions allowed it to exist within Civil Law as a state and not only as a autonomous region of the Empire.

The main issue with constitution is that even though Tsar signed it himself, some parts of it were largely left in-word only, Tsar also appointed two additional officials - Grand Duke Konstantin who controlled the country unofficially and "Tsar proxy" Nikolaj Novosilcov. Both were used to oversee Polish government as Tsar himself lacked trust to leave it up to the Poles to rule. Appointing Konstantin also moved him away from Petersburg. Konstantin himself, while having no real regards to constitution or requirements of the state kept emphasizing separation of Petersburg from Warsaw as it gave him certain levels of independence from Russian politics.

Industrially Poland also kept certain levels of separation from the Empire, following end of the Napoleonic wars and industrial stability as well as that came afterwards Polish industries started to grow rapidly. Prime areas of growth were textile and mining industry. Textile industry which was also supported by government actions between 1826 and 1829 increased its production rates from 900 thousands up to 22 mln meters of produced materials which also caused increased immigration from Greater Poland and Silesia to Congress Kingdom, estimations are that between 20-30 thousand people arrived to Congress Kingdom to work in these newly created industries as well as multiple new settlements were given town priviledges to adjust to their growth caused by increased production.
Second mentioned industry type was mining, in this case there was an increase in production in Dąbrowa Basin (from where yours truly writes whatever this is) where coal and calamine were mined from. Government in 1824 took control over this industry and invested 20 mln Polish Złoty into increasing its productivity by building new mines, blast furnaces, hammer mills and mechanical workshops which increased overall production of coal to 58 thousands of tonnes.

Polish economy was largely separated from that of Russia, for example it was not part of Russian custom unions. Ksawery Drucki-Lubecki, minister of finances created a series of investment reforms in relation to things I wrote above as well as creation of national bank - Bank Polski (Polish Bank) with its own currency, mentioned already, Polish Złoty. Bank itself mostly functioned as bank of issue, however it also functioned as loaning facility and organizing international trade of certain goods like grain, wool or zinc. Lubecki himself other than creating successful economy which lifted Polish industry between 1821 and 1829 was set in such position that allowed him to successfully disrupt anti-state activities of Nowosilcow or Grand Duke Konstantin by refering himself to Tsar to seek his support.

Part II:

Okay, that was a nice wall of text more or less describing autonomic "properties" of Polish state, but what about them, since it was all prior to November Uprising which was in 1831, after which said autonomies were reduced. Now it's important to look at the timeframe of events following the fall of November Uprising and what exactly was taken away from Congress Poland and to what extent. In part above I have described that Kingdom of Poland had separate government, parliament, anthem, coat of arms, administrative institutions, army, bank and currency. By any means we cannot talk about same political entity if all of those things were separate from each other even if Tsar himself did not really care much about abiding to the rule of the constitution. Main argument for people against Congress of Poland being a playable tag, as mentioned by for example Wizz, is that these autonomical properties were already gone by 1836 and that is... not entirely true after taking more detailed look at the entire process of removing autonomy.

Right after the fall of November Uprising Tsar Nicholas I felt he no longer needs to abide to the constitution and revoked it putting in place Organic Statue of Kingdom of Poland. This document still maintained administrative separation of Kingdom of Poland and Russian Empire, as well as maintained personal freedoms, however it discontinued independent army, parliament and merged the coronation to the main one in Moscow.
Instead of independent army people were conscripted into regular Russian army and send far away from the country to take part in Russian wars. This usually had high casualties rate with very few people actually returning to their homes.
The government, while still in place, was reduced from 5 committees to 3: judiciary, internal and finances. Tsar Nicholas also appointed, for the first time since death of Józef Zajączek, new viceroy - Ivan Paskevich who started implementing first russification policies. In 1833, as response to increased independence movements martial law was estabilished that would last till 1856 - death of Paskevich.

At this point it's important to note one thing. Organic Statue technically speaking was never fully implemented. Large parts of freedoms guaranteed by it was essentially "dead letter of law", however at the same time subsequent reforms happening up to 1836 (relevant, as this is the start date) did not fully remove the administrative reforms set up prior to the uprising, therefore, even if not implemented, it was not until later where points of Organic Statue or prior Constitution was actively dismantled from actual state.

Paskevich overall was remembered as the one who actually started the process of russification, however his reforms at the start were rather mild.
In regards administrative institutions across the country. These have retained their Polish nature, while Paskevich started the process of employing more pro-Russian bureaucrats at first it was still largely Polish and people who were instituted by the viceroy were mostly Poles loyal to the Empire rather than Russian official themselves at that point. Its overall area as autonomy was confirmed by Organic Statue and as such was not changed too much.
Polish national bank still persisted and was operational until 1880s when it was changed into regional branch of State Bank of the Russian Empire. Until that point it continued to perform its function of being bank of issue as well as providing loans.
In 1833 Paskiewich gave control of all of the state mining and ironworks to the control of Bank Polski as to finish the reforms of Lubecki and Staszic started before the uprising. Control of the bank remained in Polish hands namely Józef Lubowidzki and Henryk Łubieński. Polish Złoty, national currency, has continued being official currency of Kingdom of Poland until 1841 at which point it was replaced with Russian ruble.
In mid 1840s Polish Penal Code has also been replaced with Russian one.

Russification also started to take root in education, but at this point, similarly to administration, it was rather light. In 1839 education was removed from Administrative Council and moved under Ministry of Education in Petersburg, however even with this change the only actual change was adding russian as secondary language in high school system. Later of course education system faced steep decline with Russian officials reducing accessability of burgher and peasant youth by increasing school payments, reducing available number of students in middle schools (Gimnazja) and temporarily removing classes in high schools.
In 1841 Council of State was removed and its judiciary competencies were moved to Russian Ministry of Justice.
Imperial government increased position of nobility, still largely Polish by giving a number of priviledges, in particular extempt from military service in order of ensuring their loyalty as well as to clamp on any possible peasant movements that could lead to national unrest. Landowners maintained their priviledges of being "wójt" (head of town), who was allowed to collect taxes and levy peasants for the army.
Continuing process of unifying Kingdom of Poland with Russian Empire in 1851 Nicolas I finally connected Kingdom of Poland to custom systems of Russian Empire.

In general aforementioned reforms reducing further autonomy were largely happening up to 1855 when Nicolas I died and was succeeded by more liberal Alexander II, Alexander II temporarily paused more significant reductions of autonomy, he was still against giving Poland itself more autonomy (famous quote from his meeting with Polish nobility said "no dreams gentlemen, no dreams"). Year later in 1856 Ivan Paskievich died which lifted martial law which lasted for more than 20 years. Alexander II was known for his significant liberal reforms in the areas of Russian Empire, however these reforms largely were not implemented in Poland as Emperor viewed that giving too much to Poles would be seen as weakness. This ultimately caused deterioration of relations between Polish nobility and Tzar, but also showcased that Polish administrative institutions still remained largely separated from the ones of the Empire.

In 1861, following the demonstrations in February of this year, which led to death of five protesters, led to some adjustments of policies by Russian Empire. Following receiving a project created by Aleksander Wielopolski and later passed to the Petersburg government by viceroy Mikhail Gorchakov, several concessions were passed, concessions were: restoration of State of Council (de facto restoration of Polish control of judiciary system), creating Commitee of Religious Beliefs and Public Education (de facto restoration of Polish control of education), creation of School of Law (higher education estabilishment) and creation of electable city councils. These concessions were ultimately only small percentage of overall proposal created by Aleksander Wielopolski and while implemented did not fully convinced Polish public opinion who considered it "too little too late". Later in 1862 Wielopolski managed to push for more reforms by creation of Civilian Government (Rząd Cywilny), which separated military power from civilian, Wielopolski became a head of that government which put him as one of the most important people in Kingdom of Poland. However these reforms, and the fact that Wielopolski was conflicted with both Polish political movements (not enough reforms) and Russian government in Petersburg(too many reforms) led ultimately to the January Uprising.

January Uprising was the biggest national revolution in Poland in XIX century, however because of its largely partisan and unorganized nature it ultimately fell and aftermath of this uprising was tragic for the autonomy of Kingdom of Poland.
It was at this moment where Russian Empire realized that ruling through Polish bureaucrats and administration was not viable for them and led to changing most of administrative class from predominantly Polish to Russian. This led to subsequent removal of administrative separation between Russian Empire and Kingdom of Poland.
In 1866 State Office of Kingdom of Poland in Petersburg (estabilished in 1815 to be essentially a connection between a monarch and Polish government), Council of State, Administrative Council and government commities were all disbanded. Within next couple years all of them were reorganized into Russian-styled offices and manned by Russian officials. Local administrative powers, financial institutions and educations were all moved underneath Russian ministries, in 1876 judiciary system was reorganized and moved underneath Russian Ministry of Justice and finally at the very end, in 1885 Bank of Poland was dissolved and recreated as local branch of Russian national bank.
Ultimately Polish coat of arms was also revoked and name changed from Kingdom of Poland to "Priwislinskij kraj" (Vistula Land) and thus marked the actual end of Polish autonomy.
As a side node: even complete revocation of autonomy status took the Russian Empire 20 years at this point. Before January Uprising these changes were even slower.

Part III:

So, Part I provided general idea about level of automomy within Kingdom of Poland before November Uprising. Poland at that point was semi-independent state with control over vast majority of its internal matters, army, heraldics.
Part II described slow and painful process of reducing Polish autonomy, I think the descriptions I have made proves that by no means Polish autonomies were gone by 1836 as the wikipedia article from the beginning would suggest and how most people counterargument the idea of Congress Poland being selectable tag.

In 1836 we are still talking about a country with separate banking system, separate currency, separate government, separate custom union, separate education, separate penal codes, separate administration and ultimately separate heraldics.
These qualities and autonomies were later steadily taken away (or given back), but the main point: at the starting date of the game Polish autonomy was still large enough to consider it a separate political entity from Russian Empire. Ultimately the best comparison here is Grand Duchy of Finland which indeed is portrayed as separate entity. Now, my research in regards to Finland has been significantly less involved as it was with Congress Poland as it involved largely browsing through several internet sources and short conversation with author of this post https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-representing-finland-in-game-part-1.1500901/
Autonomies guaranteed by Russian Empire to Grand Duchy of Finland were actually significantly lower than these guaranteed to Poland at the time. Finland just as well did not possess the army until first units were formed in 1881, the parliament existing in Grand Duchy in Finland did not convene between 1809 and 1863. Finland did not have its constitution, Russia promised to abide to Swedish constitution from XVIII century which was base for the most of the laws of Finland at the time, however even then Finland was subjected to some russification processes without actual abiding to the constitution.

The general idea is that after November Uprising Poland lost all of its autonomy, or at least vast majority of it. In reality however the status of the Kingdom went from semi-independent state to a country more akin to aforementioned Finland rather than integrated part of the empire. Most of its autonomies were lost AFTER 1836 and even then it was 30+ years later with the fall of January Uprising.

So all that above portrays historical arguments that give historical basis to insert Poland on the starting map, however there are more arguments for adding playable Kingdom of Poland. Main strenght of all Paradox, historical titles is their, well... attention to history and ability to change the historical outcomes of various scenerios that happen within the timespan of the game. It's obvious Poland at this point was in very tough position rapidly losing its statehood with many of the autonomies lost within the span of 10 years from the game start. However we can compare this scenerio to Byzantine Empire, the country that was conquered within 10 years from the game start and yet it's still very fun and challenging scenerio to play through and ability restore Eastern Roman Empire to its former glory is definitely one of the most rewarding experiences in EU4. Polish scenerio would be largely similar, it's a country that pretty much everything points to it failing within next several years from the game start, and yet player could attempt to turn it around and restore Poland to its glory as Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth and, as proven above, this scenerio would not compromise historical accuracy of the entire game.

Innitially this post was also supposed to consist of diplomatic manouvering of Polish political movements, more exact description for January Uprising as well as overall economic and industrial situation of Congress Poland and international responses to "Polish issue" throught first half of XIX century, however at this point we are closing to 25k characters and I think not many people will actually read this to the end. If there is enough interest and actually some, hehe, interest groups for this topic I might create separate threads for these as there is definitely more to talk about here. However the overall situation and autonomy topic of Polish kingdom in early-mid XIX century seems to be largely well described here. If someone wants sources for the things I wrote here, these were all written in the books I mentioned in the beginning and I can provide parts which exactly mention related topics.

So, this will be it for now.

Yours truly,
The guy who spent way too much time on a topic which at the end of the day can be a mod.
This concerns me in general about how they model federal or confederation style governments or even many less centralized imperial dynastic regimes.

The Russian Empire is absolutist regime yea but wasn’t it especially at game start less so with frontier and its borders? They would work with local autocrats and elites at times and former existing political framework especially before Russification programs later in game(late 1900th century).

For example, if they took over somewhere in Anatolia they might not work with Muslims there as much but local Christians, Greeks, and Armenians to an extent. This goes more so for any Slavic lands they take in Balkans. I believe they also had somewhat cordial relationships with some of Christian and Buddhist natives across the empire even if not Russians or Slavs. The empire was absolutist and ultra conservative if not reactionary but multi ethnic and still retain many official and unofficial feudal social dynamics.

Wouldn’t a good comparison for Congress of Poland especially before revolt with Russia be like relationship the US has with Puerto Rico or British Dominion. Only much less democratic.
Or like more direct version of Eastern Bloc.

You have local polish leaders but most are mere figureheads appointed by Russia if not Tsar directly. They pick from existing political elites and framework.
Poland like Russia is very agrarian and traditionalist but with its own social dynamics like Catholicism. The place is still dominated by landowning aristocrats even among the polish themselves. You still even had Polish nobles dominate the nobility in western Ukraine which is lingering dynamic from commonwealth days before Russia took it.

Russia is absolutist but benefit of being autocrat is you can more easily reorganized system directly and change around leadership. People still might do so begrudgingly but less back and forth then democratic society or even traditional feudal one where king power is not absolute.
The Tsar can directly or indirectly pressure whoever they appoint to make what laws they want for state even if different from other parts of empire.

It isn’t Confederates or even US federal system. The Tsar and Russia can always pick when to be “benevolent” or when to break down when need be. He might not micro managed his appoints and pawns like Stalin but he still has final word and say when he chooses too.
This is how you end up with them breaking down harshly when poles did finally say to Russia to “shove it”.
 
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Ireland was significantly different to Britain in industrialisation, standard of living, access to goods and services, etc etc. And Mississippi was significantly different to Vermont. Places being different to each other, or having a very nationalistic userbase, isn't a reason to rewrite history and pretend countries were secretly strong autonomous nations able to resist their overlord by clicking the Diplo button. Sometimes they weren't.
I genuinely cannot believe you want to compare the situation of Ireland in Britain or Poland in Russia to the situation of Mississippi in the USA. They have roughly jack and shit to do with each other. I can understand the comparisons between Ireland and Poland, assuming your assessment of Irish history is correct, but considering you cite Mississippi as another instance of an occupied nation with some autonomy but ultimately obliged to a foreign monarchy, I seriously doubt anything you have to say about history. And as mentioned before, Poland and Ireland's situation differed heavily economically, which matters a lot in Vicky 3.

Guys, we know, alright. We all know and have stated before that it certainly is a difficult line to draw, which states should be autonomous puppets and which states should be unincorporated territory. I don't begrudge Paradox at all for being conservative on this, but I think Tocon has made a reasonable argument about Poland's autonomy in comparison to many other playable-puppets, and just as importantly, I want to play Puppet Poland, not Poland and Russia. I don't want to play "The spirit of Russia" and then immediately start kneecapping myself in order to make Poland playable, when in other similar cases I can just play puppets. Playing as both sides of a conflict really isn't my jam.

I mean, we still don't even know the consequences of releasing puppets. What if releasing Poland day 1 causes Russia's interest groups to drop support, causing a civil war that Poland can immediately capitalize on and become fully independent? What if releasing Poland gives it extra territory, like one of the previously raised concerns? What if releasing Poland drops the average standard of living and prestige of Russia to dangerous levels? What if it causes an economic crash because of spaghetti code ala the post-loading economic weirdness in every vicky 2 save? I imagine all these things are quite possible.
 
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1) Finland which is in the game did not have military either in 1836.
2) In-game mobilization laws "peasant levy" could portray this situation quite accurately.
Maybe Finland shouldn't exist then.
Polish citizens were conscripted into the Russian army after 1831, peasant levy wouldn't capture that.
 
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Well after reading the constitution which is frankly a mess with the same ultimate authority handed to multiple parties.
And yet not impossible to interpret, just be self governing and always check with the viceroy if everything is acceptable.. oh and be both and refrain from being spontaneous. Simultaneously!!

And yet what occurred was an attempted coup. With a assassination attempt of the grand duke (who died anyway soon after of illness) along with the uprising. Which became a civil war of loyalist poles vs rebel poles. The agreement did call for russian military to assist the sejm, which the grand duke refused to honor.

In the end there was a punishment. The loyalist sejm was gotten rid of, no more independent army and so on. Warsaw uniersity closed. Some local things remained but whether that is bureaucracy or something else?
Also previously poland was supposed to function as one would expect as a march. But instead didnt operate the army on those terms. And in the end the armies were merged with the western part.. which btw was against the terms on accepting the congress poland. Much i suspect like the independence of krakow that wasnt much respected in the end either.

oh and the organic didnt contain any new language re be a eternal part of russia. That was there previously. So go figure. A much more limited one with essentially russian laws? Or fully a part of russia with well, russian laws.
In that sense if you are bound to russian laws as opposed to finland that had separate laws, well, kinda settles it. No separate vassal needed if lawbound for all intents and purposes despite some differences like the local governance but once more isn't that actually bureacracy as opposed to self-rule?
 
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Well after reading the constitution which is frankly a mess with the same ultimate authority handed to multiple parties.
And yet not impossible to interpret, just be self governing and always check with the viceroy if everything is acceptable.. oh and be both and refrain from being spontaneous. Simultaneously!!

Well... It was XIX century. I suppose law documents as such were more primitive at the time and hardly as precise as they are nowadays, but eh, this isnt the exact point of this thread.

And yet what occurred was an attempted coup. With a assassination attempt of the grand duke (who died anyway soon after of illness) along with the uprising. Which became a civil war of loyalist poles vs rebel poles. The agreement did call for russian military to assist the sejm, which the grand duke refused to honor.

November Uprising was hardly a civil war of Poles vs Poles. It was by all means war against Russian Empire as such and it was Russian army which was fought against. Of course, one of the reasons for failure of the uprising was the general... disagreements and apathy of various groups in Poland but still it never really came to some battles between loyalist and rebel Poles.

In the end there was a punishment. The loyalist sejm was gotten rid of, no more independent army and so on. Warsaw uniersity closed. Some local things remained but whether that is bureaucracy or something else?
Also previously poland was supposed to function as one would expect as a march. But instead didnt operate the army on those terms. And in the end the armies were merged with the western part.. which btw was against the terms on accepting the congress poland. Much i suspect like the independence of krakow that wasnt much respected in the end either.

This was limiting of Congress Poland self governance. I have described in detail what was taken away and what remained, and what remained was still most of the state aparatus that, at the time, was still predominantly Polish.

oh and the organic didnt contain any new language re be a eternal part of russia. That was there previously. So go figure. A much more limited one with essentially russian laws? Or fully a part of russia with well, russian laws.
In that sense if you are bound to russian laws as opposed to finland that had separate laws, well, kinda settles it. No separate vassal needed if lawbound for all intents and purposes despite some differences like the local governance but once more isn't that actually bureacracy as opposed to self-rule?
Organic statue as such confirmed Polish autonomy, Polish government and that laws would be set up in Poland with maintained Polish bureaucracy and administration. As mentioned in the main post, this was hardly "to be" and Russia did start to implement their own laws into Poland. However, the point of this post was to describe in detail what was taken away and when and to prove that in 1836 the autonomy was still fairly large and comparable to tags existing in the game already. I do not argue that later these autonomies were taken away. That's a fact, but at the same time this process spanned decades and did not happen overnight with the most limiting laws happening only after the start date.
 
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