Zoroastrianism in Ck3

[Shahanshah Rober]

In ck2 after iron century update there was Mardavij dynasty which I loved to play (as zoroastrian it was good feeling to save Iran) I wonder similar events would go to zoroastrianism in ck3, I would love it to get more action and events about reconquering Iran, I would love to see you could restore zoroastrianism just like paganism in ck2, selecting doctrines, but this time there should be presets and those presets could not be changed because of historical reasons such as only presets being restoring zoroastrianism with Mithraism, Manicheism or classical zoroastrianism.

 

[Mackus]

Best to hope for in version 1.0.0 is that they'll add Zurvanism as heresy. It just isn't as big of a priority.

 

[guinea prince]

The heresy formation hinted at seems to support steering sects the ways you want. So, maybe!

 

[MysticSunGreatHost]

Zoroastrianism have no religious head in Ck3. But, players can restore Zoroastrianism religious head. Alternative way, players can setup as religious heads like Paganism did.

 

[mrinku]

It's not solidly confirmed what start date the game will launch with, I thought? That being the case, it's possible that there will be no playable Zoro ruler at launch, although the religion itself should still be around to convert to.

 

[aantia]

It's not solidly confirmed what start date the game will launch with, I thought? That being the case, it's possible that there will be no playable Zoro ruler at launch, although the religion itself should still be around to convert to.

867 and 1066 are confirmed, I believe, and there may or may not be other start dates. Nothing before 867, though.

but this time there should be presets and those presets could not be changed because of historical reasons such as only presets being restoring zoroastrianism with Mithraism, Manicheism or classical zoroastrianism.

I think you're misinterpreting what's supposed to be happening when you reform a pagan religion in CK2: you're making radical, far-reaching changes to theology and how the priesthood work to make it an organised religion. It's not really restoring it to some traditional, historical state.

That said, I'm always hoping for more flavour for the Zoroastrians - perhaps this time the parsi community in India will actually be represented?

 

[fredrikslicer]

Hoping for the Khurramites to show up instead of the Mazdakites

 

[Furuderikas]

I hope also that gameplay for Zoroastrians is less deterministic and revolving around certain things - like the hyper focus on incest, yes these divine marriages were a quirk of Zoroastrian Persia, but CK2 makes it into a defining characteristic of the religion rather than the mere oddity it was in real life.

Focus on more grounded aspects such as standards of moral behaviour, bureaucratic traditions or ritualised concepts like the fires please, devs.

 

[aantia]

I hope also that gameplay for Zoroastrians is less deterministic and revolving around certain things - like the hyper focus on incest, yes these divine marriages were a quirk of Zoroastrian Persia, but CK2 makes it into a defining characteristic of the religion rather than the mere oddity it was in real life.

Focus on more grounded aspects such as standards of moral behaviour, bureaucratic traditions or ritualised concepts like the fires please, devs.

The problem is that most of that doesn't *really* impact rulers. They might make up the bulk of the differences in day-to-day life, but they don't make much of a difference to fuedal structures, warfare or dynastic marriage alliances, which are what you're interacting with in crusader kings.

 

[Alehkra]

I hope also that gameplay for Zoroastrians is less deterministic and revolving around certain things - like the hyper focus on incest, yes these divine marriages were a quirk of Zoroastrian Persia, but CK2 makes it into a defining characteristic of the religion rather than the mere oddity it was in real life.

Focus on more grounded aspects such as standards of moral behaviour, bureaucratic traditions or ritualised concepts like the fires please, devs.

Genuine question, how much of an oddity is it? I'm very, very far from an expert on Zoroastrians. My knowledge base is mostly "Ancient pre-Islam religion, interesting funerary practices, incest, used very loosely by Nietzche to make a point (or not), and also Freddy Mercury was one." I was under the vague impression, however, that the incest bit was actually mentioned specifically in the Avestas. Is this not the case?

 

[kviiri]

The problem is that most of that doesn't *really* impact rulers. They might make up the bulk of the differences in day-to-day life, but they don't make much of a difference to fuedal structures, warfare or dynastic marriage alliances, which are what you're interacting with in crusader kings.

Well said. I think there are a few points I think might have relevance: CK2 has religious differences in what constitutes a vice and virtue (hence Islamic characters cannot be Chaste, and the Wicked Priest/Caliph/etc traits have different prerequisites). There could also be more focus on the continuum between hereditary clergy <--> ordained clergy <--> no clergy.

 

[aantia]

Genuine question, how much of an oddity is it? I'm very, very far from an expert on Zoroastrians. My knowledge base is mostly "Ancient pre-Islam religion, interesting funerary practices, incest, used very loosely by Nietzche to make a point (or not), and also Freddy Mercury was one." I was under the vague impression, however, that the incest bit was actually mentioned specifically in the Avestas. Is this not the case?

My understanding is that it was because of a combination of the usual aristocratic inbreeding (after all, your relatives have a lot more in common with you than anyone else, and don't come with annoying attachements) with the caste system. It was particularly notable for the emperor - after all *any* marriage outside his family was marrying below his station, so they often married their half-sisters (and had concubines to ensure a supply of half-sisters for their sons). They did marry Chinese princesses, too, and the last emperor actually fled to his cousins in China after he lost his throne. But marrying incestuously was definitely considered a good thing in contemporary religious texts as well as the Avestas, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest#Zoroastrian .

I can tell you from first-hand experience that it's no longer a thing It's probably in the category of stuff that's officially deemed 'cultural' rather than religious, like the caste system.

 

[Andrzej I]

Genuine question, how much of an oddity is it? I'm very, very far from an expert on Zoroastrians. My knowledge base is mostly "Ancient pre-Islam religion, interesting funerary practices, incest, used very loosely by Nietzche to make a point (or not), and also Freddy Mercury was one." I was under the vague impression, however, that the incest bit was actually mentioned specifically in the Avestas. Is this not the case?

I could be wrong, but I believe the practice of Xwēdōdah (the Zoroastrian incestuous unions) is only confirmed within the Sasanian royalty, with limited evidence of it spreading outside of that (though several rumors of the practice being 'amongst the Persians' from neighboring cultures). After the Sasanians, the practice is more in reference to cousin marriages rather than anything more immediate.

Edit: @aantia beat me to it.

 

[Furuderikas]

My understanding is that it was because of a combination of the usual aristocratic inbreeding (after all, your relatives have a lot more in common with you than anyone else, and don't come with annoying attachements) with the caste system. It was particularly notable for the emperor - after all *any* marriage outside his family was marrying below his station, so they often married their half-sisters (and had concubines to ensure a supply of half-sisters for their sons). They did marry Chinese princesses, too, and the last emperor actually fled to his cousins in China after he lost his throne. But marrying incestuously was definitely considered a good thing in contemporary religious texts as well as the Avestas, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest#Zoroastrian .

I can tell you from first-hand experience that it's no longer a thing It's probably in the category of stuff that's officially deemed 'cultural' rather than religious, like the caste system.

This helpfully shows my point in my opinion - these customs were mostly cultural and related to common sense solutions for aristocracy the world over; making it such a central aspect of Zoroastrianism in the game despite its prevalence in the aristocracy of many cultures and religions is iffy.

I think there’s certainly other aspects of the religion the developers could give Zoroastrian rulers to focus on - a parallel to the muslim schools of law, objectives to come into ownership of sacred grounds to relight fires, perhaps a celebration of an important festival like the passover decision?

If I remember correctly, Zoroastrians get a specific opinion penalty for deceitful behaviour - and I find that a very interesting mechanic. Maybe some form of bureaucracy mechanic to represent the satrap system the same way muslims in CK2 have decadence?

I really don’t mind the presence of the incest mechanic - but I feel it is over-prioritised compared to other (more interesting!) mechanics the religion could have.

 

[Videogames]

I hope also that gameplay for Zoroastrians is less deterministic and revolving around certain things - like the hyper focus on incest, yes these divine marriages were a quirk of Zoroastrian Persia, but CK2 makes it into a defining characteristic of the religion rather than the mere oddity it was in real life.

Focus on more grounded aspects such as standards of moral behaviour, bureaucratic traditions or ritualised concepts like the fires please, devs.

One illustration I just noticed the other day that shows how Zoroastrianism could really benefit from some attention to more of its aspects than royal incest: the mausoleum great work has an feature option for an eternal fire. That feature gives +opinion to Zunists (a mostly fictional riff on a local variety of Hinduism), but not to Zoroastrians. Eternally-lit flames are a central feature of Zoroastrian temples.

 

[Ezumiyr]

The problem is that most of that doesn't *really* impact rulers. They might make up the bulk of the differences in day-to-day life, but they don't make much of a difference to fuedal structures, warfare or dynastic marriage alliances, which are what you're interacting with in crusader kings.

That being said, CK3 has a great emphasis on roleplay. Religion and more importantly religious traditions have more chances to come up. I really hope we'll have more choices based not only on personal traits, but also culture and religion.

 

[mrinku]

Useful discussion. I had always wondered how prevalent the Xwēdōdah thing was in reality.

That Wikipedia link reminded me that Muslim practice was a bit stricter than most Christian. Does CK2 disallow avuncular marriage for Islam, as it should?

 

[klopkr]

Zoroastrianism better have the basic flavour it has in ck2 with all the incest.

 

[MoeinSS]

I could be wrong, but I believe the practice of Xwēdōdah (the Zoroastrian incestuous unions) is only confirmed within the Sasanian royalty, with limited evidence of it spreading outside of that

Also there were such practices within Achaemenid royalty. After all, didn't Sassanids consider themselves the most devout Zoroastrians of the time ?

 

[Truewhit]

The incest stuff got super annoying. Zoroastrians are more just a incest meme. I hope they get to build "towers of silence".