[WtWSMS] Suggestions/Ideas

[loup99]

Er... Wait, what is the difference between this and the other ideas and suggestions thread? Why are there two? Are they the same? If so, why did my comment not appear in this one, I made especially sure to comment it in the ideas and suggestions thread?

The other thread you replied to is [WtWSMS] FAQ/Quick Questions- Quick Answers. It doesn't matter much in absolute terms, just that for organisation purposes it is easier for us.

 

[Hatefig]

The other thread you replied to is [WtWSMS] FAQ/Quick Questions- Quick Answers. It doesn't matter much in absolute terms, just that for organisation purposes it is easier for us.

How odd. I could have sworn I did it here. Maybe I misclicked, they are just beside each other. Well, guess, I'll just quote the posts over here for easier reference, and then write up the last couple events from my notes.

The War of the Sun and Moon (Note: As we don't know the name of the Central African Moon diety, I'm going to assume he is identical with the old Egyptian Iah)

Event 1: A Realm Divided (Fires a few months after game start for the Pharaoh and vassals of him, events for one religious group alone come later)

The Garamantian nation is the pride of Africa. For a thousand years, our kingdom has stood free, rich and mighty as empires around us rose and fell. Our power is such that beyond the vast desert to our south, mighty rulers tremble and pay tribute to us. Our wealth is only further increased by trade with the coastal realms, shifting in rulership like the desert sand, between Phoenicians, Greeks, Carthaginians, Romans, and most recently the Libyan Berbers and the pale foreigners who call themselves "Vandali" or "Alani". Yet Garamantian civilization has stood firm like a rock, the secret of its success and might the vast underground reservoirs the Gods showed our ancestors how to find. With tunnels and canals we brought it to the surface and turned the desert valleys into lush lands of plenty. Knowing their entire existence as a civilized people is possible due to the grace of the gods, Garamantes everywhere are deeply religious. Yet therein lies our greatest weakness at the current. A division plagues our land, a division over the Gods.

Dismissal A: Sounds worrisome, ask the Council about our religious issues (Event chain starts)
Dismissal B: Bah, religion! The only thing that matters is the survival of your line! (Player will not get the event chain)

Event 2: Can It Stand? (Fires just after the previous)

To the west, the people and nobility worship a faith introduced by the ruling dynasty, which is said to have have been based on the faith of the mythical land blessed by Neith the Creator, somewhere to the east of the great mountains and vast deserts of the Cyranican hinterland. To the east, the people worship the traditional faith of the land, worshipping a diverse array of gods both native and brought to our lands by the Berber nomads who make up a substantial percentage of the population in the Garamantian kingdom. In the northwest there are also persistent worshippers of the solar cult of the western berber clans, so far resisting integration into the wider religious life of the realm. So far, the Pharaoh has managed to keep the realm relatively united under the Kemetic umbrella by stressing the supremacy of the common gods of all three faiths, the sun and the moon gods Amun-Ra and Iah. However, following the recent announcement of the Pharaoh's Court Griot about the legendary origins of the dynasty, this system has begun showing cracks. The Pharaoh rules the Garamantes, but is Pharaoh Garamantian?

Dismissal: Of course he is! ...Right?

Event 3: Egyptomania (Fires five years to a decade after the previous)

Since the discovery of Pharaoh's legendary ancestor some years ago, nobles all over our kingdom have ordered their own griots to examine their ancestry, consulting oral and written legends and discussing them with other griots and scholars. It turns out a substantial portion of the nobility in the west of the realm is descended (or at least so they claim) from either the same legendary stranger as Pharaoh, or his trusted companions and lieutenants. The ancestor, known as Nef'rut, was said to have come from the eastern land of plenty, a land most of the Roman and Greek traders and refugees in our country believe to be called "Aegyptus." Inspired by this supposed ancestry, Kemetic nobles pay vast sums for any Roman scrolls or books on the legendary land of Egypt. "Egyptian" clothing has become high fashion, priests dream of visiting the ancient Nilotic temples of great gods, and architects vie to construct the first Garamantian pyramid, a vast tomb structure. The Berbers and other Garamantes however feel increasingly alienated, and though the nobles would never dare speak it out loud, the commoners of the east increasingly hiss in hushed tones about foreign gods and foreign oppressors.

Dismissal: Surely it is just a passing fad, like that time people caught critters in ball cages and made them fight.

Event 4: The Double Crown (Fires about five years after the previous; should give slightly reduced Moral Authority for Kemetic and increased for Atenist)

You are in your study, skimming through a worrisome report about lowered output of water from the tunnel systems in the northeast, when a courtier bursts through the door, the guard outside failing miserably at stopping him. You make a mental note to ask the guard commander to give the guard a good beating for such incompetence, and roll up the scroll. The courtier barely bows before excitedly handing you a thick book written on calf-skin parchment. "I managed to get it, my liege," the courtier explained, "it cost me a small fortune to get it copied, but-" You dismiss the courtier with a hand motion and spread the book across your desk. The Greek text quickly confirms you have indeed got your hands on a copy of The Double Crown, the scandalous new book that spread across the realm courts like wildfire. The book, originally ordered by a member of the ruling dynasty and written by Greek scholars from Cyrenaica under the guidance of the griots, connects the legendary Nef'rut with Pharaoh Nepherites II of the Egyptian 29th dynasty. Betrayed by his treacherous general and cousin Nectanebo, he was dethroned and imprisoned at the Temple of Amun at Siwah, awaiting execution. However, his lieutenants saved him, and together they fled into the desert, calling on the gods to throw Nectanebo's family from the throne forever. Indeed, Egypt fell to the Persians a few years later. While the overall point of the book is to claim the royal dynasty of Garamantia has divine right to Egypt's throne, the furore has been caused by claims the book makes that Nef'rut and many of his lieutenants were Atenist. The Cult of Aten, recreated recently by aegyptophile nobles who considered the reign of Akhenaten the golden age of Egypt, is suspected of murdering those who believe in gods besides Aten, even sacrificing them.


Dismissal (Atenist): They doth protest too much.
Dismissal (Anyone else): Atenism in my history? I would have burned this book had it not been expensive!

Event 5: The Moon Queen (Fires about a year after the previous, slight boost to Central African MA, sets a flag that the event chain is complete)

The scribe hesitates for a moment, as he opens the banned book and sees the bloodstains from the peddler caught selling it. You helpfully remind him he will die in poverty unless he reads it out loud to you. That gets him going, and you soon confirm the rumoured contents of the book are really in it. A new hit among the clergy in the east, The Moon Queen is a version of the history of the current ruling dynasty that contrasts sharply with the stories the population hears from the griots.The anonymous author claims in the introduction that he is a priest of Ieth censored by the clergy for telling truths not in line with the falsehoods of The Double Crown, which all Kemetics secretly agree with. The official history of the kingdom states that the current dynasty was established as rulers after leading a rebellion of true Garamantes against the Libyan queen Tin Hinan, foisted upon Garamantia by the Romans, who occupied the capital of Garama and tried to establish it as "Provincia Phasania." She was thrown out and fled to a Roman fort far southwest. The new book instead paints Tin Hinan as a divine saviour, the daughter of the Mother of Creation Neith and the Moon God Iath, who had tried to live a normal life until her husband, the Roman-friendly king, was murdered by servants of the Egyptian warlords he had sent to the far western borders as march lords. Referring to her as the Moon Queen, the book states she decided to save the people from a destructive war by leading the purest and the best into the mountains to the Southwest to form a new kingdom with the Tuaregs, vowing to one day return and liberate the Garamantes. The rest of the book is a tirade against Egyptians and Kemetics, among other things accusing the royal court of creating the Cult of Aten to terrorize the true believers.

Dismissal (Central African): Could it be true? We should ask our traders to question the Tuaregs.
Dismissal (Anyone else): Surely none can believe such conspiracy nonsense?

Event 6: Abandoned And Divided (Fires under select conditions; that the previous event chain has been flagged as complete for at least a decade, that the year is after 520 (i.e. after the Justinian plague tends to hit on historical), that the Garamantian kingdom title holder is Kemetic or Atenic and does not hold Egypt, and that there are Central African landed characters in the realm)

In the last decades the situation for the common people in our kingdom has grown ever darker, despite the nobility and merchant princes continuing to live in relative safety, comfort and wealth. Plagues and diseases have wracked the countryside while harvest have been declining significantly due to inexplicable reductions in water output from the underground canals. The people claim the gods have abandoned them, and clashes over exactly whose false worship caused this get more common and bloody by the day. The followers of the old faith rally around the symbol of the Moon Queen, while Kemetics and Atenists use the Sun Disc of Amun-Ra and Aten as a symbol of their desire to burn away the darkness of the old eastern faith. African Solar worshipers flee the realm in droves, considering the fighting of followers of the moon and sun deities a grave heresy. The court has little concern for these clashes, instead concentrating on laying plans for defeating nearby realms, with the hope of creating a mighty Empire of the Sahara, from which the Garamantes can sweep and reclaim Egypt. The troubles have however now spread to your personal demesne, as one of your counties is experiencing a food shortage. What will you do?

Dismissal (Standard): The pheasants are hungry, you say? Then give the dumb birds some more seeds! (Gain unrest in county for five years, pay 5 gold for birdseed)
Dismissal (Kind or Generous trait): Redistribute my personal food supplies to the most needy. (Gain the "minor food shortage" health trait for a year)
Dismissal (Cruel or Zealous trait): Crucify anyone wearing the wrong symbol, and confiscate refugee property. Fewer mouths to feed. (2 year unrest, similar length of reduced income from county)

Event 7: Light In The Dark (Fires about a year after the last event, but for a Kemetic or Atenic Pharaoh only)

As you are riding around your demesne near your capital, you and your guards come across a village full of sick and dying people. After some interrogation, the surviving locals tell you to visit their water source nearby. Following the path, you come across the water source, one of the many underground canals, water trickling out of it at a speed and volume significantly lower than what you are used to. The water smells... rotten, even more rotten than the peasant who emerges from the canal, wielding a torch. "Thank the gods, a noble!" he exclaims, gesturing inwards, "I followed some strange outsiders here last night, and now it smells like death in here. Someone please follow me to find this lot!"

Dismissal A: You think I am stupid? You go in there yourself and bring whatever you find out here, in the sunlight. (Bad result)
Dismissal B: Guards, help him out. Find the source of this smell. (50% chance between bad result and good result)
Dismissal C: Fine, someone give me a torch. You two, come with us inside the tunnel. (80% chance of good result, 20% chance ruler dies)

Bad result:
No sound is heard from the canal for several hours. Then a mutilated hand floats out. You decide that for the sake of local safety, the village should be relocated and the hole bricked up.

Good result:
As your guards drag the mutilated corpses out of the canal, you notice they shine in bronze sun decorations. They are quickly identified as Aten Cultists. Statues of Aten with words like "We work in the dark to serve the light, we are Atenists, and this is the Atenist Creed." make it very obvious. However, as your guard points out, their heads are gone. A quick search of the village later, one of the persons dead from dysentery was discovered to have two of the heads in a box under his bed. A note was attached to it, speaking of a gathering of "Moon Lords."

 

[Hatefig]

Event 8: Garama Masala (Fires about a year and a half after event 6, but happens independently of Event 7, though it still requires there to be a Kemetic or Atenic Pharaoh and a Central African title holder. This one fires only for Central African lords.)

You arrive in the city of Garama, the ancient capital of the Garamantian kingdom, just as the sun sets. After no fewer than three of the highest ranking priests in your demesne told you to visit here on the day before the full moon, you felt compelled to at least set off a couple days for a quick visit here, so as to shut them up if nothing else. As you look around you feel a great sadness at the decline of Garamantian civilization. Before the Egyptians took power and moved the capital, this was a mighty city with thousands of inhabitants. Now it had maybe a thousand if you counted the beggars. It barely dawns upon you that you have no idea what you are supposed to do here, before a young messenger boy grabs the bristle of your horse and tells you to follow. Minutes later you find yourself in a dark basement. The only light is a brazier on the floor, reflected in a silvery mirror above pockmarked to look like the moon's surface. You see other lords there, famous faces and no-name barons, even burghers and clergy. Some look worried and confused like you, other determined or angry. You detect a hushed conversation, talk of assassination or coups, treasonous talk of the sort you would expect from a realm faction, not a random basement meeting. At last, the oldest priest present lifts his arms to silence the crowd, and his former conversation partner steps towards the brazier. His blue robes and coal black skin makes him an outlier even in a multicultural realm like Garamantia. The Tuareg spoke, grinning his pearly white teeth. "I hear you want to see the Mother."

Dismiss A: I don't want to see your mother, and I want no more part in this nonsense! (Stops the event chain for player character; AI should pick this if they have over 40 opinion of the Pharaoh)
Dismiss B: We must seek the Moon Queen. For Garamantia, for everything we have lost. (All characters choosing this get -50 opinion towards the Pharaoh and the "traveling" modifier used in the survey realm events)

Event 9: Tomb Kings (Fires three months after the last, for characters who agreed to follow the man)

Several members of your expedition immediately drop to their knees in prayer upon seeing the skeleton. You notice the worried faces on the Hoggar Tuaregs who opted to stay away from the underground part of the tomb complex, leering down on you from atop the shaft, but yell something reassuring up to them about going back to the oasis and helping the animals. "Welcome." The female voice causes you turn towards the skeleton faster than you thought possible. How? Then you realize a woman stands behind it, a dark-haired woman with a mix of Berber and Tuareg features. Like the skeleton in front of her, she wears gold rings on one arm and silver on the other. Seven on each. "I see you found our Tent-Mother, Tin Hinan. I am her daughter's daughter in ten generations, and one of those who rule these mountains and oases. When I heard from our scouts in the valleys around this place, and they told me you spoke Garama, but carried no trade goods, I knew you had come for her. Your journey have been long to come here." You raise your voice nervously. "My lady, we wish to restore a true Garamantian dynasty in our lands, to expel the heretics who forced your Tent-Mother out." The woman snorts at the suggestion. "I wish not to rule lands I have never known. Chose one amongst you to lead the liberation. Then maybe I will bring my people there one day as friends.The gods are with you."

Dismiss: The Gods are with us. We will have blood, and spill it in their name. (Removes traveling modifier, 20% chance of getting zealous)

Event 10: Always Bring Protection (Fires for the Pharaoh if he is Kemetic of Atenic, and Event 9 has fired, and he also got the good result in Event 7)

Our spies inform us large numbers of anti-Kemetic nobles have been returning from an unknown location in the southwest. Due to your due dilligence in exposing the existence of the moon lords, the court accepts an attack may be imminent. As such, the temple priests have offered to provide a unit of volunteer militia to help protect our gods from any eastern rising. Even petty nobles suspected of being part of the Atenist Cult promised volunteers and sons to command them.

Dismiss: Oh my, this may be unfortunate. (Spawns two volunteer regiments at your capital, to help you with what is coming)


Epilogue:
How you actually want to do the civil war is up to what you can do within the scripting and what you want. Indeed I would like it if was possible to rig up a civil war by giving one of the leading nobles a ton of free troops in order to increase his likelihood of forming a massive faction and attacking the pharaoh. However a foreign claymant invasion could also work, even just a religious revolt in several states. Anyway, I'll try to think of text for a couple victory events for either fate, I'll post that tomorrow.

 

[Internetviking]

Germanic and Hellenic paganism feel out of place and blobby in a mod where most other faiths are split up quite nicely. My suggestion here would be to take a page from CK2Plus and split those religions. For Hellenic, split it into Hellenic (for territories in the east) and Roman (for territories in the west). The heresies could be split up based on where they were more popular, ie Neoplatonism would fall under Hellenic while Mithraism and Sol Invictus falls under Roman.

For Germanic, split it into Germanic and Norse. The western Germanic tribes (basically everything west of the Elbe plus the guys in Britain) would have Germanic with the Germanic names, while the East Germanic and Scandinavian people would have the Norse faith (since the East Germanics allegedly originated in Scandinavia). This would help break up the religious blob.

Some other thoughts, mostly minor event ideas:

If Romulus Augustulus manages to push back Odoacer's invasion, he should get the modifier 'Savior of Rome', which would give a big boost to vassal opinion.

When Odoacer conquers Rome, there should be an event dealing with the Western Regalia. I'm thinking that it could be kept (lots of prestige but decreases the ERE's opinion of you as a 'barbarian pretender' and increases revolt risk), or it could be sent to Constantinople (much less prestige but gets a non aggression pact with the ERE and drastically lowers revolt risk). Since historically the regalia was sent to Constantinople and AI Odoacer kind of needs the lowered revolt risk I'd suggest having the latter option be the AI's default.

I'd suggest that the Legendary Leader trait lower revolt risk and increase levy reinforcement. It's kind of ridiculous to see Theodoric, Clovis and Odoacer spend all their lives with basically no levies due to having to fight constant rebellions.

Also as it currently stands anyone who migrates is basically a sitting duck since they lose their old land and don't get levies for a while. I'd suggest having the recently conquered modifier not be as harsh for migrations, maybe change it to a 'recent migration' modifier?

 

[loup99]

Germanic and Hellenic paganism feel out of place and blobby in a mod where most other faiths are split up quite nicely. My suggestion here would be to take a page from CK2Plus and split those religions. For Hellenic, split it into Hellenic (for territories in the east) and Roman (for territories in the west). The heresies could be split up based on where they were more popular, ie Neoplatonism would fall under Hellenic while Mithraism and Sol Invictus falls under Roman.

For Germanic, split it into Germanic and Norse. The western Germanic tribes (basically everything west of the Elbe plus the guys in Britain) would have Germanic with the Germanic names, while the East Germanic and Scandinavian people would have the Norse faith (since the East Germanics allegedly originated in Scandinavia). This would help break up the religious blob.

I disagree, especially on the two divide of the Germanic faith which wouldn't make much sense. Either it stays as one entity, or it could be split further, but the split in two blocks doesn't really to the differences justice, so there I don't think the setup of CK2Plus makes sense for Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages. As for the Hellenic religion, it could be divided as well, but there would be little gain in doing that without adding flavour, so unless ACR itself does it I don't think WtWSMS should have a such setup.

If Romulus Augustulus manages to push back Odoacer's invasion, he should get the modifier 'Savior of Rome', which would give a big boost to vassal opinion.

That feels a bit exaggerated given that Odoacer wasn't perceived as a such threat initially and mostly maintained existant instituions. Surviving in itself is a sufficient reward in my view.

When Odoacer conquers Rome, there should be an event dealing with the Western Regalia. I'm thinking that it could be kept (lots of prestige but decreases the ERE's opinion of you as a 'barbarian pretender' and increases revolt risk), or it could be sent to Constantinople (much less prestige but gets a non aggression pact with the ERE and drastically lowers revolt risk). Since historically the regalia was sent to Constantinople and AI Odoacer kind of needs the lowered revolt risk I'd suggest having the latter option be the AI's default.

How would this differ from the existant event chain around the imperial regalia? Or are you suggesting that the existant events should happen at an earlier point, upon an occupation of Rome?

I'd suggest that the Legendary Leader trait lower revolt risk and increase levy reinforcement. It's kind of ridiculous to see Theodoric, Clovis and Odoacer spend all their lives with basically no levies due to having to fight constant rebellions.

In my experience they don't spend all time dealing with rebellion, given the opinion boost added by the trait with the stats increase, which is already probably a bit excessive already.

Also as it currently stands anyone who migrates is basically a sitting duck since they lose their old land and don't get levies for a while. I'd suggest having the recently conquered modifier not be as harsh for migrations, maybe change it to a 'recent migration' modifier?

A migrating tribe should be weakened slightly for a while, and the recently conquered modifier goes away, given that they still retain some troops.

 

[Internetviking]

I disagree, especially on the two divide of the Germanic faith which wouldn't make much sense. Either it stays as one entity, or it could be split further, but the split in two blocks doesn't really to the differences justice, so there I don't think the setup of CK2Plus makes sense for Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages. As for the Hellenic religion, it could be divided as well, but there would be little gain in doing that without adding flavour, so unless ACR itself does it I don't think WtWSMS should have a such setup.


That feels a bit exaggerated given that Odoacer wasn't perceived as a such threat initially and mostly maintained existant instituions. Surviving in itself is a sufficient reward in my view.

Fair enough

How would this differ from the existant event chain around the imperial regalia? Or are you suggesting that the existant events should happen at an earlier point, upon an occupation of Rome?

Is there an event chain regarding it? Because I've played a couple of games so far and it seems like Romulus just keeps the regalia. It would make more sense for it to happen as soon as the invasion ends.

In my experience they don't spend all time dealing with rebellion, given the opinion boost added by the trait with the stats increase, which is already probably a bit excessive already.

It's not vassals that are the problem, it's provincial revolts. I've seen Odoacer get torn to shreds by religious/cultural liberation revolts, which his AI can't really stop since he doesn't retain his troops and his levies are depleted. And when I tried to play Clovis I ended up spending most of the game squashing peasant revolts instead of conquering stuff.

A migrating tribe should be weakened slightly for a while, and the recently conquered modifier goes away, given that they still retain some troops.

Again, that's fair. I suppose migration wars will generally give you enough prestige for a tribal army too.

 

[loup99]

Is there an event chain regarding it? Because I've played a couple of games so far and it seems like Romulus just keeps the regalia. It would make more sense for it to happen as soon as the invasion ends.

There is an event chain since a few versions back and the regalia was added for the purpose of it. It is triggered by the fall of Rome event, so Romulus should never be able to keep it no matter what.

It's not vassals that are the problem, it's provincial revolts. I've seen Odoacer get torn to shreds by religious/cultural liberation revolts, which his AI can't really stop since he doesn't retain his troops and his levies are depleted. And when I tried to play Clovis I ended up spending most of the game squashing peasant revolts instead of conquering stuff.

Oh, then I misunderstood your first post, sorry. Nonetheless, I don't think legendary leaders in particular should have a special treatment with regards to province revolts, but I do share your concern for Odoacer and think working more on them in relation to government types (a government type keeping existant instituions and being inspired by Roman customs could get less revolts). As Clovis if you convert, use your councillors in a balanced way and in general minimise the risk it shouldn't be that of an issue in my experience, but it can differ due to sheer bad luck as well.

 

[Internetviking]

There is an event chain since a few versions back and the regalia was added for the purpose of it. It is triggered by the fall of Rome event, so Romulus should never be able to keep it no matter what.

I think there's something wrong with that trigger then, since it always stays in his treasury.

 

[loup99]

I think there's something wrong with that trigger then, since it always stays in his treasury.

I'm going to see if I can reproduce, but feel free to make an exact bug report in the dedicated thread with the steps to do it.

 

[Gukpa]

There is a particularity of this mod that I believe that it would be for the best if it could be changed, first of all I beg you pardon because I'm not good with explanations, but here is it:

The tribal leaders starts as Kings, and this is bad for gameplay reasons.

The gameplay problems that we have with that is to form kingdoms, for example, starting as the antae, you cannot form the slavic kingdom, because you already have the title of king, and so you cannot get the ambition needed to have a free subjulgation casus belli on the other de jure members of the kingdom.

The same goes for all germanic kingdoms, you cannot create germania because the ambition isn't available, since you are already a king. Under those circunstances the player is forced to use their diplomats to unify germania, or dacia, or any king they want by annexing one province at the time, and then destroy your title of king to finally unify the kingdom you want to. This could be solved by making all tribal leaders dukes instead of kings, and so making the casus belli available and make it easier to unify your lands.

 

[loup99]

The tribal leaders starts as Kings, and this is bad for gameplay reasons.

The gameplay problems that we have with that is to form kingdoms, for example, starting as the antae, you cannot form the slavic kingdom, because you already have the title of king, and so you cannot get the ambition needed to have a free subjulgation casus belli on the other de jure members of the kingdom.

The Antae in particular are a duchy however at start, and the subjugation is restricted to begin with the Viking Age, to prevent large kingdoms from arising within years of start.

The same goes for all germanic kingdoms, you cannot create germania because the ambition isn't available, since you are already a king. Under those circunstances the player is forced to use their diplomats to unify germania, or dacia, or any king they want by annexing one province at the time, and then destroy your title of king to finally unify the kingdom you want to. This could be solved by making all tribal leaders dukes instead of kings, and so making the casus belli available and make it easier to unify your lands.

This restricted CB is actually intentional, since it allows us to model the Germanic tribes that had already settled and unified in their respective areas, that can use instead the Invasion CB and marriage to conquer each other rather than subjugating as it is done in the vanilla. It shouldn't be easy to unify a particular kingdom, and only after Clovis conquered Soissons did he start taking out the other Germanics one by one with matrimonial alliances and conquest, and unified the Franks themselves which start of divided.

 

[WilyWillis]

For reference, there was a partially shared interest between Donatists and Arians in their opposition to the Nicene. We previously discussed the religion here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/donatist-grand-bishop.914494/

Hmm, I see. I wasn't aware that the North African religious situation had already been discussed before.

In terms of other suggestions for the Abrahamic religions...at the moment, the only thing left that comes to mind is perhaps an Insular/Pelagian holy order, set to spawn after the Viking Age begins in order to protect the British/Irish holy sites from Norse raids and the Nicenes on the continent? (of course, only if either Insular survived the church council that historically folded them back into Nicene, or if Pelagianism is no longer a heresy by virtue of having overtaken Insular)

Also, this is more of a query than a suggestion, but whatever happened to the Promethean and Titan heresies from ACR? I thought they were pretty cool developments to play with, in the event that the Hellenic religion survives.

 

[loup99]

Hmm, I see. I wasn't aware that the North African religious situation had already been discussed before.

No problems, we can deepen previous discussions. In three years time, most things have been touched at some point, but we are still in beta with a lot to improve!

In terms of other suggestions for the Abrahamic religions...at the moment, the only thing left that comes to mind is perhaps an Insular/Pelagian holy order, set to spawn after the Viking Age begins in order to protect the British/Irish holy sites from Norse raids and the Nicenes on the continent? (of course, only if either Insular survived the church council that historically folded them back into Nicene, or if Pelagianism is no longer a heresy by virtue of having overtaken Insular)

That sounds like a reasonable suggestion.

Also, this is more of a query than a suggestion, but whatever happened to the Promethean and Titan heresies from ACR? I thought they were pretty cool developments to play with, in the event that the Hellenic religion survives.

They were removed as their implementation hadn't really been considered for a WtWSMS context (this is mostly my own fault in retrospect) and because they were ahistorical. The focus henceforth will instead be on historical challenges and developments for the Hellenic religion, even though concepts and ideas from those ACR heresies can be borrowed.

 

[Gukpa]

In terms of other suggestions for the Abrahamic religions...at the moment, the only thing left that comes to mind is perhaps an Insular/Pelagian holy order, set to spawn after the Viking Age begins in order to protect the British/Irish holy sites from Norse raids and the Nicenes on the continent? (of course, only if either Insular survived the church council that historically folded them back into Nicene, or if Pelagianism is no longer a heresy by virtue of having overtaken Insular)

That sounds like a reasonable suggestion.

What if they can be created earlier? The condition could be if all the realms in Great Britain are following the insular christianity.

Now now, I wanted to make a suggestion based on this, if Britain is secured from paganism, could a decision be implemented to unite the Insular church with the Nicene one? Or, in other way, if the Insular church have been crushed by the germanic invaders, the same decision could be activated, because there is little legitimacy on their faith left, they could adopt the continental Nicene faith to have a strong base of support.

 

[loup99]

What if they can be created earlier? The condition could be if all the realms in Great Britain are following the insular christianity.

That would clash with all other holy orders and potentially make the religion too powerful, so I'm a bit sceptic of including a such condition rather than keeping it merely defensive.

Now now, I wanted to make a suggestion based on this, if Britain is secured from paganism, could a decision be implemented to unite the Insular church with the Nicene one? Or, in other way, if the Insular church have been crushed by the germanic invaders, the same decision could be activated, because there is little legitimacy on their faith left, they could adopt the continental Nicene faith to have a strong base of support.

There is going to be the Synod of Whitby with different triggers, which will allow for the two faiths to unite or depart definitively, depending on how it fares.

 

[WilyWillis]

No problems, we can deepen previous discussions. In three years time, most things have been touched at some point, but we are still in beta with a lot to improve!


That sounds like a reasonable suggestion.


They were removed as their implementation hadn't really been considered for a WtWSMS context (this is mostly my own fault in retrospect) and because they were ahistorical. The focus henceforth will instead be on historical challenges and developments for the Hellenic religion, even though concepts and ideas from those ACR heresies can be borrowed.

Cool. And while we're on the topic of Insular/Pelagian content - another thing that just came to mind was that they could have the Culdees as a Benedictine-esque society, similar to how Winter King does it (although in that mod they're available to all Catholic Christians, whereas for WTWSMS I don't think they'd jive very well with the continental Nicenes).

I've also had a look at 00_societies, and it seems that although Nicenes can join the Benedictine order, the Dominicans are strictly Catholics-only. Any chance they can be opened up to the Nicenes like the Benedictines are or, failing that, to Aquileians at least? For much the same reason I suggested Aquileians get access to the Catholic holy orders in case they survive - they schismed because they were literally 'more Catholic than the Pope' on the issue of the three chapters, after all.

Another query, since you mentioned the Synod of Whitby in the post just above this one: what will happen if Insular has been so weakened as to become a Pelagian heresy by the time of the Synod? Does the Synod just not happen, does it still happen with a much higher or even 100% chance for Insular to be absorbed into Nicene (as the orthodox rally together to fend off the Pelagians), or will there be an alternate Synod of Whitby event to facilitate a Nicene-Pelagian reconciliation? Although I imagine that would be much more difficult since the Nicenes' and Insularists' differences were mostly about practices concerning monastic tonsure and how the date of Easter was calculated, not actual doctrinal issues, quite unlike the Augustinian/orthodox vs. Pelagian dispute over Original Sin & free will.

As for the Promethean/Titan thing, that's unfortunate. Though I do think they could still work as 'what-if' heresies emerging under a longer-lasting Hellenic religion, or even without a surviving Hellenic religion as the Empire's dwindling pagans look to alternatives to the old gods that have pretty clearly failed them.

 

[loup99]

And while we're on the topic of Insular/Pelagian content - another thing that just came to mind was that they could have the Culdees as a Benedictine-esque society, similar to how Winter King does it (although in that mod they're available to all Catholic Christians, whereas for WTWSMS I don't think they'd jive very well with the continental Nicenes).

That is a good idea, and I don't know how the Winter King does it but it would certainly add some flavour.

I've also had a look at 00_societies, and it seems that although Nicenes can join the Benedictine order, the Dominicans are strictly Catholics-only. Any chance they can be opened up to the Nicenes like the Benedictines are or, failing that, to Aquileians at least? For much the same reason I suggested Aquileians get access to the Catholic holy orders in case they survive - they schismed because they were literally 'more Catholic than the Pope' on the issue of the three chapters, after all.

Eventually maybe, although I wouldn't prioritise this, given that they are from the 12th century.

Another query, since you mentioned the Synod of Whitby in the post just above this one: what will happen if Insular has been so weakened as to become a Pelagian heresy by the time of the Synod? Does the Synod just not happen, does it still happen with a much higher or even 100% chance for Insular to be absorbed into Nicene (as the orthodox rally together to fend off the Pelagians), or will there be an alternate Synod of Whitby event to facilitate a Nicene-Pelagian reconciliation? Although I imagine that would be much more difficult since the Nicenes' and Insularists' differences were mostly about practices concerning monastic tonsure and how the date of Easter was calculated, not actual doctrinal issues, quite unlike the Augustinian/orthodox vs. Pelagian dispute over Original Sin & free will.

It is not a development we had considered, although I would say that it would still be for the Insular Church even if is a heresy, with a more likely chance of them merging. Separate content around Pelagianism could be considered.

As for the Promethean/Titan thing, that's unfortunate. Though I do think they could still work as 'what-if' heresies emerging under a longer-lasting Hellenic religion, or even without a surviving Hellenic religion as the Empire's dwindling pagans look to alternatives to the old gods that have pretty clearly failed them.

Promethean has some overlap with Neoplatonism, and would conflict with that if it was added. As for Titan, it was written as a heresy for an 11th century revival, meaning all content would have to be reconsidered and rewritten based upon 5th century sources if it was to be an accurate "what-if" scenario.

 

[Grigg]

One quick suggestion with Romance cultures using Imperator for Emperor titles, it would seem more immersive to have either Princeps or Caesar, as Imperator was a title historically granted to anyone with command over an army or province, although it is the etym for the Engish Emperor, the title was also still used by regular military commanders i.e Germanicus throughout the Imperial period. Princeps is perhaps a more particular term (although it did have occasional usage during the Republican period), which was used as a title for the Emperor in light of the lex gabinia (67 BC) which granted Pompey as Consul Imperium over the whole mediteranean as a response to piracy,and which was then used as legal precedent for the powers granted to Augustus after Actium, however then the title fell out of use at the conclusion of the crisis of the Third century with the formation of the tetrarchy, however it is not difficult to see a reformed Western Empire led by a native Latin speaker adopting the Latin titles and style of Caesar Augustus, especially in responce to the Eastern Empire's increasing adoption of the Greek Basileus for official purposes, however given the Holy Roman adoption of Kaiser, Russian Tsar, local variants of Caesar seem a more likely result for post collapse Romance cultures. Perhaps using Princeps for the cultures clsoer to Classical latin, Roman, Romano-Gallic etc, and then Caesar for the later Romance cultures once the melting pots are implemented.

 

[Grigg]

One quick suggestion with Romance cultures using Imperator for Emperor titles, it would seem more immersive to have either Princeps or Caesar, as Imperator was a title historically granted to anyone with command over an army or province, although it is the etym for the Engish Emperor, the title was also still used by regular military commanders i.e Germanicus throughout the Imperial period. Princeps is perhaps a more particular term (although it did have occasional usage during the Republican period), which was used as a title for the Emperor in light of the lex gabinia (67 BC) which granted Pompey as Consul Imperium over the whole mediteranean as a response to piracy,and which was then used as legal precedent for the powers granted to Augustus after Actium, however then the title fell out of use at the conclusion of the crisis of the Third century with the formation of the tetrarchy, however it is not difficult to see a reformed Western Empire led by a native Latin speaker adopting the Latin titles and style of Caesar Augustus, especially in responce to the Eastern Empire's increasing adoption of the Greek Basileus for official purposes, however given the Holy Roman adoption of Kaiser, Russian Tsar, local variants of Caesar seem a more likely result for post collapse Romance cultures. Perhaps using Princeps for the cultures clsoer to Classical latin, Roman, Romano-Gallic etc, and then Caesar for the later Romance cultures once the melting pots are implemented.

As an extension upon this: a third option woud be the use of Dominus which was adopted as the official title by Domitian upon his ascension in 284, and would have been the title used primarily by Romulus Augustulus and his immediate predecessors, given that the title Princeps was abandoned with the formation of the Tetrarchy, however I still maintain a slight bias for Princeps in the event of a reformed WRE, possibly just because I like the sound of the word . ANd considering the fact Imperator is the etym of English and the work is apparently already done for later romance cultures, might make more sense to carry on using vocal variants of Imperator, for Franceis etc.

 

[Kapitalisti]

By the way, noticed that the localization for a pagan temple for Finnish characters is "Ohimo". Sure, that means temple but not the kind where you worship stuff, it's the temple on your head. If you want to use the proper term, it's "temppeli".

EDIT: oh and I checked the other Finnish localizations and noticed you have "Laskea" as the terms for counts. Again, yes it is technically correct: laskea means "to count", as in numbers etc. "Kreivi" is the correct title. And the term for city king is "Jengi" which means "gang". And the word for barony is "Paroniavo" which doesn't actually mean anything.