Why are X weapons not OP again?

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If you want to comment on research, maybe you should focus on the fact that we all end up with the same technologies in the end, regardless which choices we make during the game regarding research.
Not to out myself as an emo teenage Linkin Park fanboi, but "In the end, it doesn't even matter": that everyone has the same techs at the endgame is unimportant because the game isn't decided in the endgame, it's decided in the first 30 years.
Now, I accept that this is A Bad Thing, but it's A Bad Thing that renders moot the Bad Thing you're talking about. The endgame is a grand-strategic wasteland already, lying 250 years beyond the last point at which game choices were significant, so there's certainly no point in quibbling about how balanced the tech setup is when you get there.
 
DreadLindwyrm said:
And nah, I know who the downvote was. I can check such things :D

" Down votes " are in real "respectfully disagree".
I for one like them.
They mean respect.
They *really* don't when they're being applied to something that isn't an opinion that can be sensibly disagreed with.

I *had* got some things wrong - but the better course of action is to point out the mistake, not just "respectfully" disagree.

If they're being used properly, then sure they're an "I disagree" button, and have value. When they're not, and they're just being used as a downvote they're worthless.

When someone seems to go through and systematically "respectfully disagree" with everything you've posted in the past few weeks? Then it's just pointless.
 
If you want people to take your feedback seriously don't make ludicrous comparisons like this.

problem is, it's not ludicrous. I've tried visual novels with more real custimization in ship combat than Stellaris. (you should try out "Sunrider: Mask of Arcadius" if you don't believe me, it's freeware). It's sad that a '+ / -' system of upgrading ships from a visual novel actually give more difference to your fleets behaviour in combat than the shipdesigner in Stellaris.
 
problem is, it's not ludicrous. I've tried visual novels with more real custimization in ship combat than Stellaris. (you should try out "Sunrider: Mask of Arcadius" if you don't believe me, it's freeware). It's sad that a '+ / -' system of upgrading ships from a visual novel actually give more difference to your fleets behaviour in combat than the shipdesigner in Stellaris.

Yes, but so do a lot of games (Polaris Sector, Sword of the Stars, MoO3), so that really isn't saying much. Stellaris' combat and ship design just isn't that great to start with; it's better, granted, than the very thin veneer of complexity that the other GSG games have (which usually boils down to "just have more numbers") - which is itself still better than something like Civ or GalCiv - but to make the combat better and the decisions more than "make better numbers," you'd have to fundementally re-design how the combat works (which would require MUCH better ship AI, more and different modules on a ship and a correspnding cost in dealing with the additional mass demand on processing power with the additional decision making).

Would I like to see that? Hells yes, amd I still hope I do. But at the moment, the underlying system is still a be fundementally limited by the fact the battles are still very much "two balls shp fly towards each other slowly, firing" such that trying to make things too "balanced" you could easily end up with everything is homogenised to the point where, say, the decision between small guns and big guns is nothing more than cosmetic. Which is again, making it a non-choice, just a different sort of non-choice.

The other danger, of course, if the system becomes advanced enough that there are multiple valid strategies (which perforce still only means a sub-set of options among all possible options), that when there is no "right" answer, some people will find the decision making too daunting, too hard or tedious (I've heard some folk say they already find Stellaris' ship design system to be more effort than they want to spend). You literally can't please everyone, since some people want diamterically opposite things[1].

(I spent the better part of fifteen years writing a star ship game for tabletop for a system which is essentially like a 4X in that you build your own race/fleet, so I am all too aware of the challenges involved, and my game has the advantage of only having to deal with around 40 starships in battle at once - 90 is our record - (not hundreds) and the benefit of not having the incredibly hard job of trying to teach a compute How To Tactics (and it takes long enough to train humans in that regard)... (And, at the end of the day, the most OP thing in that game is Being Better At Tactics than the other guy, which no amount of numbers can fix!)



[1]Obsidian's advantures in resource/encounter management in Pillars of Eternity 1/2, for example, because there are basically the opposed camps of "I want to have to manage resources like I did in AD&D" and "I don't want to have to manage resources like I did in AD&D."
 
nice straw man.
Ah, yes. "What? He's pointed out how ridiculous my argument is by showing how inane it sounds applied to other aspects of the game? STRAWMAN!"
 
People saying battleships should be strongest should be false.

You start with corvettes. Your reward for researching destroyers is to counter corvettes. You reward for researching cruisers is to counter destroyers.

But your reward for battleships isn't just to counter cruisers... its to be OPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP. That's wrong
 
People saying battleships should be strongest should be false.

You start with corvettes. Your reward for researching destroyers is to counter corvettes. You reward for researching cruisers is to counter destroyers.

But your reward for battleships isn't just to counter cruisers... its to be OPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP. That's wrong
So what do you, suggest, then? A stacking series of Bigger Ships to counter the Previous Biggest Ship, onward into infinity? I'll be the first to say that Alpha Strike is silly-powerful right now, but it should be at least powerful given that it's a late-game tech meant to show your empire's incredible power.
 
People saying battleships should be strongest should be false.

You start with corvettes. Your reward for researching destroyers is to counter corvettes. You reward for researching cruisers is to counter destroyers.

But your reward for battleships isn't just to counter cruisers... its to be OPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP. That's wrong

Which, again is a partly problem of how the combat works. At the moment, there is neither the maneouvring capability, nor the AI capability to make properly emphasise making small vehicles work properly verses larger ones.

This, is however, a pretty much unilateral issue with every single 4X I've come across - bigger hulls are just generally vastly better. (Hell, it's even true of BATTLETECH.) If anything, Stellaris handing better pirate suppression to corvettes is a bigger incentive to use them than in most games, where you will tend only to use the lighter hulls to fill in gaps (SotS) or just phase them out completely (e.g. MoO3).

(We shall have to see if HoI4's Man the Guns manages to not do that, and if it does, how it does it and whether it could be yoinked for use elsewhere.)
 
There's not really supposed to be a choice of whether to use X-slot weapons or not on battleships. As others have pointed out, they're a reward for completing two different sections of the tech tree, and thus are intended to be the best.

The choice comes in which X-slot weapon to use, whether anti-shield, anti-armour, or bypass.
 
One of the other things that bothers me about X-slots is that it's a bonus technology that's only useful for Battleships. For example, the Mass Driver family of techs goes from Tier-1 to Tier-5, for S-, M-, and L-slots, so all four main ship classes get close to the same benefits. Then you branch off into Mega Cannons and now Battleships get an increase in damage not available anywhere else. And then you get another tech improvement (Giga Cannons) AGAIN only available to Battleships.

Combined with my comment from above, I would say Corvettes and S-slots are standard tech, Destroyers also unlock M-slots including M-cannons for Corvettes, Cruisers unlock L-slots/cannons, and Battleships unlock X-slots/cannons. If you have the Apocalypse DLC, then Titans unlock T-slot weapons including a larger cannon for Battleships; if you don't have Apoc, then a separate technology with lower overall cost would be available for just the larger cannon. The weapon technology would apply, as often as possible, from S-slots all the way up to the larger slot (double-X or D-slot?).

I would think that cannons would face a lower Tracking score than their turreted version, but considering they're only on the smallest, most agile ships that can field the weapon, I don't think it would be a massive penalty. I would probably also look at increasing the base Tracking for L-slot turrets to give some room for the X-slots, as the size increase from S- to M- to L- is only 2x overall each time - perhaps 15% for L-slot turrets, leaving 10% as valid for X-slot turrets. The D-slots would at least initially only be available as cannons, so they might have been 5% as turrets, but would drop to 0% as cannons. But I would also need to see any Tracking increases for weapons be weapon-size dependent, either as a multiplier against the base Tracking or a tiered flat improvement (like Thrusters for ship sizes). X-slots would probably need to give back some of their ridiculous Range advantage (e.g., the Mass Driver family is 50/75/100 for S to L, X would be 125 and the D-slot would come in at 150).
 
Not to out myself as an emo teenage Linkin Park fanboi, but "In the end, it doesn't even matter": that everyone has the same techs at the endgame is unimportant because the game isn't decided in the endgame, it's decided in the first 30 years.
Now, I accept that this is A Bad Thing, but it's A Bad Thing that renders moot the Bad Thing you're talking about. The endgame is a grand-strategic wasteland already, lying 250 years beyond the last point at which game choices were significant, so there's certainly no point in quibbling about how balanced the tech setup is when you get there.

I'm actually sad [I'll get over it] that I don't have a great counter to this point :(
 
Wow ... what's up with 2.2.x that the community is doing nothing BUT bickering with each other. Come on folks we all love the game [in general ... maybe not certain specifics]. Can't we all just get along? :)

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Circling back to what the thread was about:

I'm OK with Alpha Strikes on X weapons being awesome as they're generally a late game tech and they should feel fairly awesome given that their restrictions. To me they "feel" OP enough. I haven't done tests but they SEEM to pack a punch :)

That's not to say that I wouldn't like some changes in how combat works:
  • I'd LOVE to mine the dickens out of wormholes OR gateways OR even at the edge of a solar system bordering an enemy.
  • I'd love to launch my strike craft EARLY and wait for that fleet of enemy ships to jump in so I can engage instantly [no fly time ... out of range of their big guns ... etc.]
  • I'd love to have "fleet standings" in one way or another that alter combat behavior or at least give some extra rock-paper-scissor style bonuses
  • I'd love to be able to group fleets together to make SURE they all move together ... Heck I wouldn't mind if I had to hire another admiral to make that happen.
 
I'd love to be able to group fleets together to make SURE they all move together ... Heck I wouldn't mind if I had to hire another admiral to make that happen.
You can sort of do this by assigning multiple fleets together under 1 ctrl-group. I did that in a 2250endgame-5x crisis game against the Scourge, where I had 6 fleets on 2, 3 of those fleets on 3, and the other 3 on 4.
 
There is no way you are going to balance the game so that every single choice is balanced. In this particular case, I think things are decent - Spinal Mount is always the best section to use, but which weapon to put in that slot depends on what you're fighting. Having access to spinal mounts is a reward for all that researching. There still has to be the choice to use some other section there, because it's possible (in fact certain, I think) to research battleships before you can research any spinal mount weapon. It doesn't follow from that, that those default choices should be as powerful as spinal mounts.

If something is a choice, it should serve some purpose. That's a more reasonable bar for balance. The other sections serve the purpose of being something to use before you discover spinal mount weapons.
 
There is no way you are going to balance the game so that every single choice is balanced. In this particular case, I think things are decent - Spinal Mount is always the best section to use, but which weapon to put in that slot depends on what you're fighting. Having access to spinal mounts is a reward for all that researching. There still has to be the choice to use some other section there, because it's possible (in fact certain, I think) to research battleships before you can research any spinal mount weapon. It doesn't follow from that, that those default choices should be as powerful as spinal mounts.

If something is a choice, it should serve some purpose. That's a more reasonable bar for balance. The other sections serve the purpose of being something to use before you discover spinal mount weapons.

Thank you for saying this in a much more diplomatic and elegant way than I could manage.
 
Yeah, the fact that my starting corvettes are outfitted with a flak battery, despite no one having strikecraft yet, infuriates me, especially since it reduces my damage by 1/3.
You are perhaps unaware that flak can shoot at ships as well as missiles/strike craft, and has higher DPS (3.0) than any start-of-game S-slot weapon while still having high tracking? The other PD has even higher DPS (3.75, which nothing else comes close to) but loses half of its tracking. Neither one has much range (30), but then, no S-equivalent weapon has much range.

Prior to a few minor patches ago (2.2.3 or so), point defense of either kind was massively better, slot-for-slot and tech-for-tech, than S weapons for general combat (possibly excepting disruptors, which are their own weird thing). Yes, in specific scenarios such as "this enemy has massive shielding but no armor" you could do better with non-PD weapons (at least once you obtained plasma / autocannon) but in the general case, those weapons still lost out to PD. In 2.2.3 or so, they heavily nerfed PD against armor, which takes it from being the best S-equivalent module to being merely "what you use any time you wish you had autocannons but haven't researched them yet" (railgun-type weapons have about the same damage against shields, about the same damage against armor, and significantly less damage against hull). When using corvettes fitted with the S, S, P section, the PD consistently did more damage per slot than the weapons in the S slots, even if it was spending some of its volleys killing missiles. When there were no missiles, it might (depending on where I was in tech progression) do as much DPS as the two S-slot weapons combined.
 
you should try out "Sunrider: Mask of Arcadius" if you don't believe me, it's freeware
Sunrider is mix of visual novel and tactical game. Stellaris is grand strategy game without tactical layer. Obviously, design decisions about some tactical capabilities of your ship are more meaningful in game that has tactical layer.

but to make the combat better and the decisions more than "make better numbers," you'd have to fundementally re-design how the combat works (which would require MUCH better ship AI, more and different modules on a ship and a correspnding cost in dealing with the additional mass demand on processing power with the additional decision making).
To make war better and decisions more than 'make better numbers' or 'spy on enemy and then connect the dot (a.k.a. 'rock-paper-scissor)', you have to redesign how the war works. Any workhour spent on trying to redesign combat is workhour that won't be spent on making wars better.
 
But your reward for battleships isn't just to counter cruisers... its to be OPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP. That's wrong

You're supposed to counter battleship monofleets with swarm corvettes. Those X/L weapons on the battleship have a lot of DPS on paper, but against corvettes, they'll often miss and even when they do hit, a lot of damage is wasted on overkill.

The main problem at the moment is finding a good role for medium-sized ships (destroyers and cruisers) after battleships are unlocked.