White Eagle, Red Star mod

Halibutt · Feb 22, 2005

White Eagle, Red Star - BETA AVAILABLE

http://wers.eufi.org

WERS 0.7 INSTALL

You guessed it, the guys from the Polish forum at eufi.org have started the White Eagle, Red Star mod. It is focused on the Polish-Bolshevik War, as well as on the later stages of the Russian Civil War. The mod covers the timespan between January 1919 (Bolshevik capture of Minsk and Kiev) and January 1921. Apart from the most obvious nations (you guessed it, Poland and the Reds), the mod features plenty of other states and factions: Greater Poland, the Ukraine, Belarussian National Republic, the Whites, even the German garrisons in the East and the anarchist state of Makhno.

Among other notable features is the unique brigade-level Order of Battle (you play with brigades rather than divisions) and a huge number of both historical and not-so-historical options for all the players.

So far the mod is in early beta stage, stay tuned for a playable demo soon. We work on the mod mostly on the Polish forum, but there is a bi-lingual thread as well, with list of event proposals and pending tasks, so feel free to contribute. All help will be highly appreciated.
Cheers

Halibutt · Feb 22, 2005

Among the things we need the most is the exact Bolshevik and Russian OOB for early 1919. Could anyone help us with it?
Cheers

Darks63 · Feb 23, 2005

there is already a 1914 mod in the works but it will go beyond 1918 into the 20's era u could try asking them, there is a polish-soviet war battle scenario as well

unmerged(26901) · Feb 23, 2005

this is great halibutt, you guys over at eufi.org do quality stuff. i for one say congratulations and good luck, id help but i cant since i am busy with the alexis project.

Halibutt · Feb 23, 2005

I don't know about the 1914 project, perhaps one day we could share some files, but the basic idea is quite different (the OOBs, for instance: they use divisions, we use brigades). And the other battlescenario was prepared by Lt. Hillsdorf, who since then joined our team and decided to combine the efforts with us

And thanks for the wishes.
Cheers

unmerged(12435) · Feb 23, 2005

Only some few questions:
- what are you gonna do with the rest of the world?
- are you gonna put in the mod also other faction involved in the Rusian civil war? (like the Siberian Republic)
- IIRC in 20-ties, there have been a small war (or almost-war) between Poland and Czechoslovakia...not possible to put it there either?

And good luck anyway

unmerged(33990) · Feb 23, 2005

Looks promising.

Rey · Feb 23, 2005

That looks nice. Hey, where is the Western Ukraine Republic?

Kaiser Franz · Feb 23, 2005

i can provide the white russian armies.....and their location..

White Russian armies and units.

Northern Corps - Estonia (20,000 men)
1st White Estonian Division
2nd White Estonian Division

Baltische Landeswehr - Lithuania/Latvia (30,000 men)
Eiserne Division
Baltische Landwehr
Deutsche Legion

Detached Corps - North Russia (20,000 men)
1st Detached Rifle Division
2nd Detached Rifle Division

North West Army - North West Ukarine (60,000 men)
1st Infantry Division
2nd Infantry Division
3rd Infantry Division
4th Infantry Division
5th Infantry Division
6th Infantry Division

Volunteer Army - Northern Ukraine (50,000 men)
1st Infantry Division
2nd Infantry Division
3rd Infantry Division
4th Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Division

1st Army Corps - West Ukarine (30,000 men)
Drozdovska Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Division
2nd Cavalry Divisions

2nd Army Corps - East Ukarine (30,000 men)
13th Infantry Division
34th Infantry Division
Tersko-Astrakhanska Cavalry

Composite Cavalry Corps - South-East Ukraine (20,000 men)
Kuban Cavalry Division
3rd Cavalry Division

Donosky Corps - South-East Ukraine (30,000 men)
1st Donskaya Horse Division
2nd Donskaya Horse Division
3rd Donskaya Horse Division

Army of the Don - Western Ukraine (80,000 men)
1st Infantry Division
2nd Infantry Division
3rd Infantry Division
4th Infantry Division
1st Cavalry Division
2nd Cavalry Division
3rd Cavalry Division
4th Cavalry Division

Lower Volga Detachment - Lower Volga region (20,000 men)
Astrakhan Cossack Division
3rd Kuban Cossack Division

Trans-Volga Detcahment - Upper Volga region (10,000 men)
Kavkazkaya Rifle Division

1st Uralsky Corps - Ural Region (50,000 men)
1st Uralsky Cossack Division
2nd Uralsky Cossack Division
3rd Uralsky Cossack Division
1st Uralsky Infantry Division
3rd Iletzkaya Division

Army of Turkestan
Zakaspiyskana Composite Division
Turkestan Rifle Division
Cavalry Division
1st and 2nd Basmanchi - Uzbek irregulars

2nd Iletzky Cossack - Ural region
3rd Uralskaya Cav. Division
5th Iletzkaya Division
plus several detcahed units

Admiral Kolchaks Army of Siberia
The army was formed in Novonikolayevsk (Novosibirsk)

1st Middle Siberian Corps
1st and 2nd Siberian Rifle Div's

2nd Stepnoy Siberian Corps
3rd, 4th and 5th Siberian Rifle Div's

3rd Uralsky Army Corps
7th Uralskaya Rifle Div
2nd Czech In. Regt
1st, 2nd and 3rd Orenburg Cossack Regt's

Composite Corps
3rd Irkutskaya Siberian Rifle Div
15th Omskaya Siberian Rifle Div
Votkinskaya Div
Krasnoufimskaya Brigade

If you want i can post the Red army, not actual OOB, but i can give you numbers, Fronts and basic organisation. Also i can give you the OOB's for the Western Ukrainian Republic, The National Ukrainian Republic and Makhnoshvchina...As well as armies for the Caucasus, Turkestan, and Allied interventionists...

Kaiser Franz · Feb 23, 2005

Ukrainian Peoples Rep. 1917-1921 this is not a commie rep. it is the nationalist Ukraine at war with USSR etc...
Sich Rifles
9th,10th,11th Divisions = around 15,000 men

Zaporizhska
6th,7th,8th Divisions = around 15,000 men

Volhynian
1st,4th Divisions
3rd Iron Rifles Div = around 10 to 15,000 men

Otaman Tiutunniks Group
Kyiv Peasant Division, Zaporizhka Sich Div, 2nd, 5th and 12th Divisions

Also, as i have mentioned there were the two guards Divisions, the blue Zhapans and the Grey Zhupans, which are already in the OOB in TWEP

Ukrainian Insurgent Army - Makhno
At the begining of 1919 there were at least 20,000 men fighting for Makhno, but this incraesed to 40,000 by the end of the year
other than the Chiefs Hell Squadron there was an Infantry Division called the Iron Division.

Western Ukrainian Republic

1st Corps
5th Sokal, 6th Rava Ruska, 9th Uhnv, 10th Yaniv Brigades

2nd Corps
1st Ukrainian Sich Rifles (ex-Austrian volunteers, galician army etc)
2nd Kolomyia, 3rd Berezhany, 4th Zolochiv Briages

3rd Corps
7th Stryi, 8th Sambir, 11th Stryi, 12th and 1st Mountain Brigades

Halibutt · Feb 24, 2005

Kaiser Franz said:
i can provide the white russian armies.....and their location..(...) If you want i can post the Red army, not actual OOB, but i can give you numbers, Fronts and basic organisation. Also i can give you the OOB's for the Western Ukrainian Republic, The National Ukrainian Republic and Makhnoshvchina...As well as armies for the Caucasus, Turkestan, and Allied interventionists...

I already have the OOB for the Red Army for the southern part of the front in mid-1919. What we need the most is the Bolshevik OOB for the northern part for that period or at least the timetable of the arrival of new troops for the Polish fronts (Western and South-Western Fronts).

Other thing that will be highly appreciated will be the breakdown of the troops fighting on the northern part of the front onto separate brigades. The naming system of the brigades within Red Cavalry divisions was quite simple (1st Brigade of XXX Division, 2nd Brigade of XXX Division and so on, the numbers were 1 to 3 for all divisions). However, the Rifle Divisions had distinct numbers for their brigades...

Rey said:
That looks nice. Hey, where is the Western Ukraine Republic?

We're still thinking about whether to add two separate Ukraines or one. After all the theoretical unification was passed in January, AFAIR. On the other hand the factual unification of WUPR with UPR did not succeed until the very end, when both Ukraines were limited to merely three or four counties along the Romanian border... I guess this is a matter of extensive testing: we want both Ukraines / the Ukraine to survive the two front war long enough. If we realise that the unified Ukraine cannot cope with the Poles, Whites, Reds, Makhno and the internal struggles, we'll try adding the other Ukraine (composed of 3 provinces).

However, as for now, I'm afraid it would mae both countries too weak. Take note that by January 1919 (the starting date of the scenario) the Reds were approaching Kiev while the Poles already fully liberated the Lwów province. So the new Ukraines would be really small.

Draculin said:
Only some few questions:
- what are you gonna do with the rest of the world?

Wipe it out. Perhaps one day, when the Polish-Ukrainian-Soviet part of the conflict is well-represented and playable, we'll start adding new peripheral states that took part in the conflict: Lithuania (conflict over Wilno), Latvia (civil war, struggle against the Red Rifles), Romania (fights along their border and occupation of Pokucie region).

- IIRC in 20-ties, there have been a small war (or almost-war) between Poland and Czechoslovakia...not possible to put it there either?

I don't think there is any sense in adding Czechoslovakia to the map. The war over Cieszyn Silesia cannot be represented otherwise than through events (no such province on the map, the conflict was about some 5% of the Cracow province) and that state was much more active in a separate war with Bela Kun's Soviet Hungary, which might be a decent basis for a separate battle scenario.

- are you gonna put in the mod also other faction involved in the Rusian civil war? (like the Siberian Republic)

See above. However, I'm not sure if expanding the map so much would be good. Human player can cope easily with a 5-front war, but the ai is too weak for that. I'm afraid that the collapse of one of the fronts (for instance a Polish breakthrough) would automatically collapse other distant fronts. The ai would most surely try to redeploy some troops from Finland/Siberia/Caucassus/anywhere, effectively depriving itself from a large part of its forces for a month or so, enough for a human player to exploit it.

Thanks for the feedback!
Cheers

Halibutt · Feb 25, 2005

Almost-final version of the map is now ready. We lack info on the German armies in the east. Initially I planned to add German Army as the owner of some provinces in the east, but apparently the area occupied by the Krauts was relatively small and the German influence will be simulated by events only.

Expect a playable beta soon.
Cheers

PS. Any comments, feetback and/or additions will be highly appreciated.

Kaiser Franz · Feb 25, 2005

could you provide me with the Polish OOB in 1919 if possible, we've been trying to find out their strengths and names for units, but to no avial.....i need it for the TWEP Vicky 1919 mod...so if you could help, i'd appreciate it.

EDIT: is that the starting map? what date is it supossed to start?

Halibutt · Feb 28, 2005

Kaiser Franz said:
could you provide me with the Polish OOB in 1919 if possible, we've been trying to find out their strengths and names for units, but to no avial.....i need it for the TWEP Vicky 1919 mod...so if you could help, i'd appreciate it.

No problem at all. We still do not have the full OOB for 1919, and especially so since the Polish Army was still forming and it was quite a mess, but I have a pretty decent OOB for the Galician and Wolynian fronts (against the Western Ukraine). For the most up-to-date OOBs we have currently just check our Wikipedia OOB page. Also, if you could help us with completing the list - we'd appreciate that. We especially need the Bolshevik OOB for early 1919. My info is only fragmentary and I didn't even add it there yet.

EDIT: is that the starting map? what date is it supossed to start?

January 15, 1919. Theoretically it was the day the Bolsheviks entered Minsk (and Kiev soon afterwards) so I thought it could be a good starting date. Of course the borders are only approximate. The area controlled by the Whites was just my own guess and the Lvov province ownership was just a compromise, but I think it's fairly playable.

Also, the most up-to-date version of the map has also the Pomerania (Danzig province) switched to German garrisons.

Finally, I just realised I forgot to add the OOB for Galician front to the wiki, so I'll simply post the OOB I added to the scenario. Take note that it's approximate as well, especially that both the names, numbers and organisation schemes were changing very rapidly. Too bad HoI2 doesn't have an event command that would allow to change the name of a unit. (or is there such a command?)

Code:

#########################################
# OOB of Polish units in and around Lwów
#	as of January - March 1919
# 	by Halibutt
#
# 10 strength = 1000 men at arms
#########################################
landunit = {
	id = { type = 10001 id = 104 }
	name = "Dowództwo Wschód"
	location = 501	#Lwów
#	leader = 

	division = {	
		id = { type = 10001 id = 14 }
		name = "Grupa Bug" 
		offensive = { year = 1919 month = february day = 15  } 
		strength = 50
		max_strength = 50
		type = infantry
		model = 0
		}
	division = {	
		id = { type = 10001 id = 15 }
		name = "Grupa Minkiewicza" 
		offensive = { year = 1919 month = february day = 15  } 
		strength = 80
		max_strength = 90
		type = infantry
		model = 0
		}
	division = {	
		id = { type = 10001 id = 16 }
		name = "Grupa Sikorskiego" 
		offensive = { year = 1919 month = february day = 15  } 
		strength = 50
		max_strength = 50
		type = infantry
		model = 0
		}
	division = {	
		id = { type = 10001 id = 17 }
		name = "Grupa Konarzewskiego"
		offensive = { year = 1919 month = february day = 15  } 
		strength = 40
		max_strength = 50
		type = infantry
		model = 0
		}
	division = {	
		id = { type = 10001 id = 18 }
		name = "Grupa Kulinskiego" 
		offensive = { year = 1919 month = february day = 15  } 
		strength = 15
		max_strength = 25
		type = militia
		extra = engineer	#to simulate local volunteers who actually know the city
		model = 0
		}	
# landunit = {
#	id = { type = 10001 id = 104 }
#	name = "3 Dywizja Piechoty Legionów" #9800 men altogether
#	location = 501	#Lwów
#	leader = 8011 #Zielinski
		
landdivision = {
		dormant = yes	#	9.04 1919
		id = { type = 10001 id = 19 } 
		name = "7. & 8. ppLeg 3DPLeg" 
		strength = 50 
		max_strength = 65
		type = infantry
		model = 1
		}		
landdivision = {
		dormant = yes	#	9.04 1919
		id = { type = 10001 id = 20 } 
		name = "9. ppLeg 3DPLeg" 
		strength = 20 
		max_strength = 65
		type = infantry
		model = 0
		}		
	landunit = {
		id = { type = 10001 id = 105 }
		name = "4 Dywizja Piechoty" #finally formed on April 22, 1919, out of Aleksandrowicz's Group
		location = 501	#Lwów
		leader = 8158 #Aleksandrowicz
		
	division = {	
		id = { type = 10001 id = 21 }
		name = "4 Dywizja Piechoty" 
		strength = 5
		max_strength = 100
		type = infantry
		extra = artillery 
		brigade_model = 1
		model = 0
		}		

		id = { type = 10001 id = 106 }
		name = "5 Dywizja Piechoty" #initially "Grupa Bug", reformed March 8 into "Grupa Leśniewskiego", then "Dywizja Lwowska" and May 20th into "5 Dywizja Piechoty"
		location = 501	#Lwów
		leader = 8040 #Minkiewicz

	division = {	
		id = { type = 10001 id = 22 }
		name = "5 Dywizja Piechoty" 
		strength = 30
		max_strength = 90
		type = infantry
		extra = artillery 
		brigade_model = 1
		model = 0
		}			
}

This list doesn't include many smaller units nor airforces, as well as several big units that were transferred there temporarily (2 divisions of the Haller's Blue Army, for instance) or arrived a tad later. This will be done by separate events. Also, take note that we're using brigade-sized level of command, which means that a corps named "...Dywizja..." is actually a division-sized unit split onto brigades.

Hope that helps. If you need some more detailed info, just let me know.
Cheers

unmerged(28406) · Feb 28, 2005

Hmm maybe give some info on the Poznan province,why is that an independent country,if I may ask ?

Halibutt · Feb 28, 2005

In December 1918 a Greater Poland Uprising started. It was an armed struggle between the local Poles and the German Grenzschutz and other para-military organisations who wanted the area to remain a part of Germany. According to the Paris Peace Conference dictate, neither side could be helped by its central government (that is the Germans could not receive troops from Germany and the Poles were also fighting on their own). So, in fact the Greater Poland was waging its own war.

Of course, after the Greater Poland Uprising ended, the province was reunited with Poland. The Main Peoples Council (some sort of a provisional government) in Poznań ceded all its powers to the central government in Warsaw and the Greater Polish Army was united with the Polish Army.

Of course, this situation could be handed as well by events instead of adding a new country, but hey, why not?

Also, by adding a separate state (puppet of Poland) we avoid boosting Poland with too many strong divisions early in the game.

Cheers

unmerged(18738) · Feb 28, 2005

Pole icons

Halibutt,

I have d/l and have corrected a number of Woland's images from SR. When I am done I'll email them to you for your consideration. PM me with your current email, please.

-Phil K

Halibutt · Feb 28, 2005

Thanks, you're my hero. I sent the email already. So far we have fairly decent buttons for Western Ukraine (infantry and Sich rifles as an elite unit).

Cheers

unmerged(28406) · Feb 28, 2005

Maybe info on other minor countries as well(I am interested in the Polish-Russo war)?

Halibutt · Feb 28, 2005

You'll have to wait for the mod to be released

. So far all the countries are listed in the opening post of this topic. You can find out more on them on wikipedia. English-language wikipedia is a good place to start. Check also the Polish-Bolshevik War article and the article on the Russian Civil War.
Cheers

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