What was the size of all the great powers armies in September 1938?

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Mr_B0narpte

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By great powers I mean Britain, France, Germany, USSR, USA, Italy and Japan. I am curious particularly because of the pro-appeasement argument that claims Britain wasn't ready for war as I'm sure Britain and France heavily outnumbered the German military from 1933-38.
 
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101003131611AAdPvGZ

This was the best I could find. So the Germans here had 850,000, while Britain had a mere 220,000, half of which were positioned around the world. Assuming it isn't wrong.

...can see why the Brits were a little hesitant, but that doesn't tell the whole story. I'd be interested to see what France's manpower was. Not to mention Czechoslovakia's as well.
 
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101003131611AAdPvGZ

This was the best I could find. So the Germans here had 850,000, while Britain had a mere 220,000, half of which were positioned around the world. Assuming it isn't wrong.

...can see why the Brits were a little hesitant, but that doesn't tell the whole story. I'd be interested to see what France's manpower was. Not to mention Czechoslovakia's as well.

I'm currently listening to The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer. According to his sources, Czechoslovakia (who had about a million men, of which 800.000 where front line units, and who were relatively well armed) and France together outnumbered Germany by more than 2 to 1. Add to that the massive fortification works and the mountainous terrain of the border regions of Czechoslovakia, and it adds up to a massive defeat for Germany if there had been war over the Sudeten issue. Even Hitler himself apparently admitted that it would have been a disaster after having inspected the Czech defense works. The Munich agreement really is one of the most shameful episodes of the entire history of Europe.
 
...at least in hindsight, it is. But one has to remember, that, at the time, the german claims didnt seem to be all too injust. The allies were holding up the right of peoples of self-determination and gave formally german territories to neighbouring nations based on it, after WWI. As the Sudetenland was ethnically dominated by germans, and its majority was believed to want to join the Reich, there were few morally consistent arguments, the allies could put against germany´s claim on it. Had Hitler not broken the agreement half a year later, nobody would have been too upset with it, i guess (even if ultimately Nazi-Germany had fallen the way it did). It also served as ´the red line´. Once Hitler had passed it, everybody -not only the respective governments of the western democracies- knew, that this man could not be trusted to compromise and that it was really time to prepare for war, as the allies had gone as far towards the germans as they could reasonably be expected to and had proven to be as lenient and understanding towards Hitler as they might. And he chose to make a mockery out of it.
 
None of which excuses the shameful display of bullying tactics of the worst kind against Czechoslovakia that preceded the agreement, from France and Britain as well as Germany.
 
I'd also note it was the Versailles agreement that shoved the Sudetenland onto Czechoslovakia in the first place. Having put them in that position Britain and France could have at least defended them. Or at least, that is what could be argued.
 
At the start of 1938, Britain had a grand total of two (2) divisions capable of being deployed in combat. Their other forces were scattered around the Empire in small garrisons, lacking the weapons, equipment or tranport needed for modern warfare. They were, however, rearming, and by 1940 hoped to have five divisions, including one armoured division, as a Field Force. If war started, the government planned to raise another 10-12 Territorial Army divisions which would need a year after the war started to train and equip.

According to the information the British government had, the French army in 1938 had 40 divisions. I looked around for a detailed breakdown; the best I could find (in French) specified this as 20 Metropolitan and 8 Colonial infantry divisions, 3 cavalry divisions, 2 mechanised divisions, and 6 armoured brigades. Which is not 40: counting a brigade as half a division it's 35 divisions.

British intelligence reports of the German army at the start of 1938 put it at 55 divisions on mobilisation, not counting 24 Landwehr reserve divisions which were not judged to be capable of front-line combat. (But if you do include them, it's 79 divisions.) That's 4 armoured divisions, 4 motorised divisions, 2 light/cavalry brigades, 36 regular and 15 reserve infantry divisions.


In other words, according to British sources, in 1938 Germany had a larger army than themselves and France put together. Remember also that they judged that both Italy and Japan would ally with Germany in a war, and so had to be defended against as well; but they ruled out getting any material assistance from either the USA or the USSR. They'd be on their own.
 
I'd also note it was the Versailles agreement that shoved the Sudetenland onto Czechoslovakia in the first place. Having put them in that position Britain and France could have at least defended them. Or at least, that is what could be argued.
The Sudetenland has been part of the Kingdom of Bohemia since 1198, and Germans have lived there since Czech kings invited them in during the 13th and 14th centuries. Versailles has nothing to do with it.
 
I thinks he means that it was easy to guess that either Germany or Austria would eventually want the land back and that by not defending the Czechs the allies kinda screwed them over. Kinda of like giving them a bomb and promising to help defuse it, but then last moment deciding not to.
 
I thinks he means that it was easy to guess that either Germany or Austria would eventually want the land back and that by not defending the Czechs the allies kinda screwed them over. Kinda of like giving them a bomb and promising to help defuse it, but then last moment deciding not to.

Well yeah, that's what was so bad about Munich. It signalled that Britain and France had abandoned the Versailles order of eastern Europe, which let Germany and the USSR sort things out between themselves.
 
According to the information the British government had, the French army in 1938 had 40 divisions. I looked around for a detailed breakdown; the best I could find (in French) specified this as 20 Metropolitan and 8 Colonial infantry divisions, 3 cavalry divisions, 2 mechanised divisions, and 6 armoured brigades. Which is not 40: counting a brigade as half a division it's 35 divisions.
I'm guessing this was an underestimate considering the Allies had a total of 140 divisions facing Germany in 1940, most of them French.
The Sudetenland has been part of the Kingdom of Bohemia since 1198, and Germans have lived there since Czech kings invited them in during the 13th and 14th centuries. Versailles has nothing to do with it.
Are you suggesting the Versailles treaty was basing itself on something that had happened over 700 years ago?
 
I'm guessing this was an underestimate considering the Allies had a total of 140 divisions facing Germany in 1940, most of them French.
As far as I can tell: no, it's not an underestimate. That was the size of the French army in 1938-39. The other troops you mentioned were raised after the war started.

The British planners were considering the size of the active peacetime armies (on both sides) that would be available for action immediately if war broke out: not those which could be raised later but would need months of training before they could be put into combat. Note that the German army after mobilisation in 1939 had over a hundred divisions itself, rather than the 51 the British estimated it as having; but again, that larger figure includes called-up reservists.

For reference, this is the French army's Order of Battle in August 1939:

Infantry divisions (Division d'Infanterie, DI):
10th DI (Paris), 11th DI (Nancy), 13th DI (Besançon), 14th DI (Colmar), 19th DI (Rennes), 21st DI (Nantes), 23rd DI (Tours), 36th DI (Bayonne), 42nd DI (Metz), 43rd DI (Strasbourg).

Motorised divisions (Division d'Infanterie Motorisée, DIM):
1st DIM (Lille), 3rd DIM (Amiens), 5th DIM (Caen), 9th DIM (Bourges), 12th DIM (Châlons-sur-Marne), 15th DIM (Dijon), 25th DIM (Clermont-Ferrand).

Mountain divisions (Divisions d'Infanterie Alpine, DIA):
27th DIA (Grenoble), 29th DIA (Nice), 31st DIA (Montpellier).

Cavalry divisions (Divisions de Cavallerie, DC):
1st DC (Orleans), 2nd DC (Lunéville), 3rd DC (Paris).

Note: in 1935 France had five cavalry divisions. They were in the slow process of upgrading them into light armoured divisions; by 1939 two (the 4th and 5th Cavalry Divisions) had been converted, as follows:

Light Mechanised Divisions (Divisions Légères Mécaniques, DLM):
1st DLM (Reims), 2nd DLM (Melun).

Armoured Brigades (Brigade de Chars de Combat, BCC):
1st BCC (Lyon), 2nd BCC (Nancy), 3rd BCC (Metz), 4th BCC (Versailles), 5th BCC (Tours), 6th BCC (Verdun).

In addition, 15 infantry regiments (the equivalent of 5 divisions) manned the Maginot Line. They weren't counted in the active army size listing, but thinking about it I'm guessing that's why the British said the French army was 40 divisions strong when only 35 were listed.)

Colonial Infantry Divisions (Divisions d'Infanterie Coloniale, DIC):
1st DIC (Bordeaux), 2nd DIC (Toulon), 3rd DIC (Paris), 4th DIC (Toulouse)
(Note: consisted of 6 regiments of white troops and six of black troops, mostly from Senegal.)

North African Infantry Divisions (Divisions d'Infanterie Nord-Africains, DINA):
1st DINA (Lyon), 2nd DINA (Toul), 3rd DINA (Poitiers), 4th DINA (Epinal)
(Note: recruited from Arabs, Berbers, and European colonists in Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco.)

Spahi Cavalry Brigades (BS):
1st BS (Compiègne), 2nd BS (Orange)

The colonial troops were treated as a 'rapid reaction force' able to be deployed to a danger spot quickly.


Well yeah, that's what was so bad about Munich. It signalled that Britain and France had abandoned the Versailles order of eastern Europe, which let Germany and the USSR sort things out between themselves.
Not exactly. As far as Britain was concerned, the Munich Crisis was a case of the UK getting actively involved in Eastern Europe for the first time, when before it had never really bothered much about the region. Chamberlain famously described it as "a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing".

British policy in 1936-39 was based on the fact that Britain, France, Russia, Italy, Japan and the USA combined had barely managed to beat Germany in the First World War, and it had left them crippled. Now Germany was acting aggressively again - and the USSR was communist, the USA was isolationist, and Italy and Japan had gone over to Germany's side. That left Britain and France alone, and as such they had no serious hope of defeating Germany in a war. The best war plan the British could come up with was to sit on the defensive, blockade Germany for years, and hope that eventually they starved or a revolution broke out.

In the meantime, their only hope was to distract Hitler from war by offering limited and calculated concessions, and persuading him that peaceful negotiation rather than conquest was the best way forward. Meanwhile, Britain was frantically re-arming after allowing her armed forces to dwindle almost to nothing after WW1.

Appeasement failed because it assumed the German government was normal and concerned with its own rational self-interest. They didn't account for the fact that Hitler wanted conquest and war. They assumed his more bombastic speeches were merely propaganda, and he would be more sensible in private: but in fact, he was less sensible in private. :)

The USSR wasn't a factor in international politics in 1938. They were in the middle of the Great Purge, and their army was a shambles. Keep in mind that the Soviets had signed a defensive treaty with Czechoslovakia three years earlier: but it soon became obvious to everyone during the Munich crisis that they had neither the means nor the intention to honour it. As such, they weren't even invited to the Munich Conference. "Germany and the USSR sorting things out between themselves" wasn't something that happened until August 1939, a year later, and it came as a huge shock to everybody - including the former Soviet foreign minister, Litvinov, who lost his job when the NKVD sent troops to 'demand his resignation' and arrest most of his staff because he was considered too pro-Western.


Are you suggesting the Versailles treaty was basing itself on something that had happened over 700 years ago?
Yes. Let me quote to you Article 82 of the Treaty of Versailles in its entirety:

The old frontier as it existed on August 3, 1914, between Austria-Hungary and the German Empire will constitute the frontier between Germany and the Czecho-Slovak State.

When the Habsburg Monarchy collapsed, Czechoslovakia regained its independence based on the old Kingdom of Bohemia. The Allies didn't have anything to do with that, other than to recognise their independence after the event and warn Germany and Austria not to interfere.

You could argue that they should have forced the Czechs to cede the Sudetenland to Germany, based on the principle of nationality. Certainly in 1938 many people in Britain thought so too, and believed that Hitler had a reasonable case to say Germany had been treated unfairly. But back in 1918-19, when the Czechs were celebrating their freedom from Teutonic oppression, that would have seemed like a betrayal.
 
Thankyou StephenT for your very informative and interesting answers.
 
If the Czecks had a decent-sized army and good border fortifications, why not fight for the Sudetenland, regardless of what Britain and France would concede?
Surrounded by hostile nations (Hungary and Poland weren't their best buddies) and no hope for help from any major nation. Except maybe from the international outcast, the Soviet Union. Yeah, why indeed not fight and risk loosing the whole country instead of just the border areas.
 
By great powers I mean Britain, France, Germany, USSR, USA, Italy and Japan. I am curious particularly because of the pro-appeasement argument that claims Britain wasn't ready for war as I'm sure Britain and France heavily outnumbered the German military from 1933-38.

From the reading of the diaries/memories of various British politicians of the era, they vastly exaggerated the German power.
 
From the reading of the diaries/memories of various British politicians of the era, they vastly exaggerated the German power.
Yes, but memoirs especially hardly reflect the real situation in 1938. After the war they had other motives to rationalize and justify their actions and pre-war policies. Churchill being the most blatant example.

It's the exact same thing as with the post-war memoirs of the German generals.
 
From the reading of the diaries/memories of various British politicians of the era, they vastly exaggerated the German power.
What happened to them in 1940 kind of suggests that no, they didn't vastly exaggerate German power. if anything they underestimated it.


If the Czecks had a decent-sized army and good border fortifications, why not fight for the Sudetenland, regardless of what Britain and France would concede?
They had good fortifications on the borders with Germany before 1938. Then Germany annexed Austria, and suddenly their main fortification line was completely outflanked. Also, the fortifications were in the Sudetenland, and they were afraid of sabotage and subversion from the Sudeten Germans - who also made up 10% of their army.

Also remember that Czechoslovkia is landlocked, and surrounded by hostile neighbours - both Hungary and Poland wanted to annex Czech territory themselves. 75% of Czechoslovakia's foreign trade came through Germany, and their main industrial centres were very close to the border - Plzen, where the Skoda works is located, is 33 miles from German territory. Even if they managed to fight off the initial German attack, they'd inevitably lose a long war.
 
What happened to them in 1940 kind of suggests that no, they didn't vastly exaggerate German power. if anything they underestimated it.

But that was 2 years after Munich. What I've read suggests that if Britain and France went to war over Czechoslovakia they could have won relatively comfortably.