Too Unrealistic - putting the game aside for a few months

[dannyk77]

Love the concept of the HOI series. I play it to be able to recreate WW2 as one of the countries, not play some fantasy game.

I have stopped every game by 1941/42 as the general situation no longer resembles WW2 and is simply crazy.

Every game England has well over 100 division and is sending them all over the world. In reality England had no more than 40 Infantry divisions and around 10 armored divisions, and that stressed their manpower through out the war.
Also the ability to do naval invasions was an extremely specialized and resource costly thing to attempt. Only a few countries could do it and then rarely (except for Japan). But in HOI4, it is extremely easy to do for anyone.
There should be special equipment (landing craft) that has to be researched and produced to help with this issue. The planning period for naval invasion should be longer.

The AI production of too many divisions and its poor template usage needs to be reworked to be realistic - looks like they are working on this topic fortunately.

The AI just does crazy stuff. Sending divisions all over the place and not taking care of their most important concerns, like their home country.

Supply system - does it even exist? Except for when a unit is surrounded there seems to be little effect from supply issues. England and France can attack with dozens of divisions from the south through the African desert, through 0 infrastructure, with little adverse problems. Couldn't have happened!

The lack of feedback/information on the battles going on make the game hard to manage when the global war really gets going. Unless you are looking at that area of the map you have no way of knowing that you are being attacked or losing territory. Please put back a list of the current land battles like was in HOI3.

I would go back and play HOI3 if it wasn't for the darn resource sliders and constantly having to manage that.
Except for resource management, HOI3 beats HOI4 hands down.

The dev team did a great job in making HOI4 bug free on release - this was a great achievement!!!

But the endless design issues in HOI4 is hard to explain.
What were the beta tester telling them during the long beta period?
Why does the dev team have to relearn and correct they same kind of issues they addressed and corrected in the previous HOI games?
Why wasn't HOI4 development started with all the good that was in HOI3 instead of seemingly starting over from scratch?

 

[safe-keeper]

Agree with most of what you said. Balance and AI needs a lot of work.

Sahara is an obvious issue, too. Not sure what would fix it best, making it outright impassable or just making it so that the AI considered it a massive detour and thus avoided it whenever it could. It certainly should lead to massive attrition, maybe even more than it does already.

 

[Arandur87]

I partially agrre with you. Realism-wise, it is completely nonsense, that 2 Division can set up a naval Invasion within 7 days, just using a convoy. But as the game mechanics are atm, it would be horrible to wage war against nations like the UK, if you have to prepare for invasion like 6 Months or something.

If Nations would surrender faster or if we would have the option to offer peace/puppet status, after we conquered our justyfied wargoals, it would be ok to desing invasion more realistically.
But waging war against the UK, taking their Island, destroying 80% of their forces and they don't give a damn, cause they own half of Africa and Asia is just idiotic. I can't even propose peace, cause they have like 5 allies with barely no army, but terretories on the whole globe...

So yeah, realism-wise, you're right. Game-wise, not doable at the current state of the game.

 

[szmik]

Well, if you expect anything realistic from this game.... you should buy other games.

 

[FieldMedic]

I do agree with most of what you're saying although I have enjoyed the game nevertheless. I do hope the AI and balance issues are resolved going forward to help stamp out some of the bizarre behaviour.

 

[Axisgeneral]

AI needs a lot of work and will be improved based on Paradox's track record - Had a game yesterday as Germany where I invaded Denmark in April 40 and immediately faced over 100 allied divisions. After I defeated France 2 months later I spent another couple weeks cleaning up allied pockets which numbered over 100. I am almost certain if the British had lost over 200 divisions by summer 1940 it would have been finished for good. They are now doing the same to my buddy playing Italy. Gibralter and Suez are in Axis hands - but tons of divisions.

 

[agus92]

Why does the dev team have to relearn and correct they same kind of issues they addressed and corrected in the previous HOI games?
Why wasn't HOI4 development started with all the good that was in HOI3 instead of seemingly starting over from scratch?

IIRC the team that created HOI3 is no longer at Pdx. Again, IIRC, Podcat did the second expansion (don't know if the first one as well). Modifying a game is not the same as creating one from scratch, and a lot of issues have appeared that resulted is shifting design choices, towards simplification of systems. Probably the dev team was a little too ambitious or/and misjudged the effort required to implement certain features. My hope is that the once the game is stable they will work upon fixing the placeholder systems, like supply (oil anyone?), or improve the ones that saw modification for easier implementation (like national focii).

And HOI4 started from scratch because the focus of the game is different from HOI3. A lot of design choices were drastically different, and I think that trying to implement the new features in mind would be far more buggy and time consuming to an existing game not designed around those concepts.

 

[tinculin]

A few points, the number of divisions being so high is a product of them being so small.

Those numbers you quote for the British army are when British division size was close to 20k troops per division.

When you talk about researching specialised equipment to invade a country, what are you talking about? We've been invading countries since before nation states existed and all you need is an army that you can keep fed and paid.

Don't think you'll get too much objection about the AI, but this is an issue for all strategy games and the hardest thing in gaming to get right - sadly to say, if you want a great AI opponent you need to make the game far simpler to play - each level of complexity makes AI harder to code.

Completely agree about the UI, fighting in several different theatres on multiple continents is very hard to keep up with - a list of battles on the right coloured in red / Amber / green text if you are lose/draw/winning would be very helpful.

 

[Solaxe]

Yeah enjoy your micromanaging hell in HoI 3.

 

[dannyk77]

IIRC the team that created HOI3 is no longer at Pdx. Again, IIRC, Podcat did the second expansion (don't know if the first one as well). Modifying a game is not the same as creating one from scratch, and a lot of issues have appeared that resulted is shifting design choices, towards simplification of systems. Probably the dev team was a little too ambitious or/and misjudged the effort required to implement certain features. My hope is that the once the game is stable they will work upon fixing the placeholder systems, like supply (oil anyone?), or improve the ones that saw modification for easier implementation (like national focii).

And HOI4 started from scratch because the focus of the game is different from HOI3. A lot of design choices were drastically different, and I think that trying to implement the new features in mind would be far more buggy and time consuming to an existing game not designed around those concepts.

Interesting, wasn't aware of the change in dev team, guess I didn't pay enough attention over the years That does explain some things...
So this game isn't really HOI4 (i.e. an evolution of the HOI series), but an entirely new game, playing off the good HOI name.

 

[fulminea]

Hoi3 can micromanage thanks to OOB tree...... But micromanage of Hoi4 is compleate abyss due to lack of any proper management tools......

 

[General Slim]

I agree with OP.

I'll be going back to HOI2 - AoD, until the most broken bits of this game have been patched to my satisfaction.

 

[dannyk77]

Yeah enjoy your micromanaging hell in HoI 3.

I admit I do like micro managing, particularly the land battles.
But yes, HOI3 did require micro managing of some things I could have done without.
I like a complex game.
HOI4 gives the initial impression of a complex game due to the cop out on not having a manual to explain how the game works (the wiki and videos is no substitute)
But once you struggle through the first few games learning how the game really works, then you realize it is too simple of a game (compared to HOI3).

 

[Quintus of Mund]

I am also feeling a bit burnt out after more than 50 hours over the last couple of weeks. And looking forward to more patches and improvements!

I cannot judge if this is better than HoO3, since I didn't play it, but let's plays are enough to scare me of.

Yes, there are bugs. But I am having a great time.

I cannot put it away. Must Novus Imperium Romanum!

 

[Monkbel]

I disagree with supply complaint.
I'm playing Poland, attacking USSR with 100+ divisions, and past Moscow and Tbilisi the supply problems are huge. I have to remove 30+ divisions just to make sure that supply is going from red to yellow, and making it green is impossible. My divisions constantly get -20% or so because of low supply.

 

[Teodosio7]

Sorry OP, this looks another case of 'l2p' to me, in addition to excessive worshipping of an idealized memory of HoI3.
One by one:

I have stopped every game by 1941/42 as the general situation no longer resembles WW2 and is simply crazy.
Every game England has well over 100 division and is sending them all over the world. In reality England had no more than 40 Infantry divisions and around 10 armored divisions, and that stressed their manpower through out the war.

How is that different from HoI3?

Also the ability to invade countries was an extremely specialized and resource costly thing to attempt. Only a few countries could do it and then rarely (except for Japan). But in HOI4, it is extremely easy to do for anyone.
There should be special equipment that has to be researched and produced to help with this issue. The planning period for invasion should be much longer.

Not clear what you mean here, perhaps naval invasions? They weren't any better in HoI3 btw.

The production of divisions and templates concept needs to be reworked to be realistic - looks like they are working on this topic fortunately.

No idea how do you want to rework the division templates. They are much more detailed than their HoI3 counterparts (e.g. support companies...), I am really enjoyng them a lot.

The AI just does crazy stuff. Sending divisions all over the place and not taking care of their most important concerns, like their home country.

And the difference from HoI3 is...?

Supply system - does it even exist? Except for when a unit is surrounded there seems to be little effect from supply issues. England and France can attack with dozens of divisions from the south through the African desert, through 0 infrastructure, with little adverse problems. Couldn't have happened!

Yes supply exists. The main difference is that cities provide local supply and it looks sensible to me. Current supply availability is too much? Perhaps, but the base design is solid.

The lack of feedback/information on the battles going on make the game hard to manage when the global war really gets going. Unless you are looking at that area of the map you have no way of knowing that you are being attacked or losing territory. Please put back a list of the current land battles like was in HOI3.

I don't think this is really a problem but perhaps it is just me. You are not going to have more than 2 or 3 fronts anyway and it is very easy with the current UI to understand the situation at a glance. Besides, every army has a green/red bar under the picture of its general that tells you how it is faring overall.

Except for resource management, HOI3 beats HOI4 hands down.

Yes, your idealized memory of HoI3 is the best game ever.
In reality, HoI4 improves in so many ways over its predecessor that it is difficult to list them all: equipment production, no more useless OOB, battle plans, design companies, ability to create your own faction, support companies, variants for equipment, clearer air and naval missions, supply system, upgrading divisions, etc. etc...

 

[Dnote]

Let me preface this by saying I'm a massive EU4 player, and haven't touch HOI3 since CK2 came out.

HOI4 feels like a bare bones GSG in the same vain as EU or Vicky, with none of the economic or diplomatic depth and only a minor increase in the depth to military operations. If you took away the battle plans system, it would actually feel a lot closer to EU4's combat than HOI3's combat. Everything moves too fast, is too shallow and doesn't really feel like a wargame.

It also feels like they've hacked the systems they have to get the intended result, rather than actually reworking or improving them. Like weighting the research so the AI other than Germany doesn't research Armor. It's a balance hack to make single player work, rather than fixing the root of the issue.

 

[Quintus of Mund]

Let me preface this by saying I'm a massive EU4 player, and haven't touch HOI3 since CK2 came out.

HOI4 feels like a bare bones GSG in the same vain as EU or Vicky, with none of the economic or diplomatic depth and only a minor increase in the depth to military operations. If you took away the battle plans system, it would actually feel a lot closer to EU4's combat than HOI3's combat. Everything moves too fast, is too shallow and doesn't really feel like a wargame.

It also feels like they've hacked the systems they have to get the intended result, rather than actually reworking or improving them. Like weighting the research so the AI other than Germany doesn't research Armor. It's a balance hack to make single player work, rather than fixing the root of the issue.

What I love: this is GSG, not wargame. No bloody hexes.

 

[atredies]

I quit my USA game in 1942 as the game started to have input lag, FPS was fine but clicking a button took the game a few seconds to register.

I then realised Germany had around 800 divisions as did the USSR and Germany and Italy had conquered most of Europe and south east Asia before I joined the war.

England had around 100 divisions and kept a large chunk of its navy in port in the English Channel

 

[Shadow86]

HOI4 feels like a bare bones GSG in the same vain as EU or Vicky, with none of the economic or diplomatic depth and only a minor increase in the depth to military operations.

When did Hearts of Iron ever have economic or diplomatic depth?

On the economic side, all you've had to care about is procuring enough resources through trade to keep your armies running and your factories building. If anything, HoI4 is a step up due to the fact you now need to build specific equipment instead of generic supplies to keep your forces stocked with the necessary materiel. And now you have three different types of factories instead of generic industrial capacity.

And regarding diplomacy, I see no depth lost compared to previous installments, except perhaps some minor intelligence details (staging coups is still an option, at least). That last bit's bound to get expanded upon.