The HRE in CKIII

[Ydrgn]

From todays view, the HRE is often either seen as a slightly more complicated "state" or misunderstood altogether. I would like to see the enourmous impact of its creation, the ideal of universal monarchy, the high status of the Emperor among European aristocracy, the internal strife of princes, the role of free cities, as well as the conflict with the Church and the Italians represented in CK III.

I see a lot of potential with regards to a HRE faction system, maybe implementing "permanent" factions, tied to titles, and maybe representing the Imperial Circles, city associations, or the Italians.

I also think of creating an Imperial bureaucracy, nobles without land, but political influence.

What do you think? Any HRE-specific ideas?

 

[Darth.]

HRE should have a reform system like EU4, except unlike EU4 where reforms can be done quickly, here even a single reform should be the work of a lifetime, maybe even multiple lifetimes unless you have god-tier diplomacy (or your Chancellor does - *cough* Bismarck *cough*). Also unlike EU4, Emperors can willingly repeal reforms and decrees, so keeping Emperorship in the family by getting Electors to vote for you, appeasing them after passing a reform or issuing a decree they may dislike, addressing factions and incidents (like the coming EU4 patch 1.30 Imperial Incidents - but dynamic and not historical), etc would make Emperorship a lot more challenging and fun.

Although the AI might just throw its hands up and blue screen.

 

[darthfanta]

I think that a lot of players are expecting a type of HRE that wasn’t really present for the majority of the game’s timeframe.If the game starts in the mid-800s then the HRE should be in a much better position and much centralized than France.

 

[kviiri]

I don't think special mechanics for HRE is in the spirit of Crusader Kings: a game that tends towards the dynamic and generic over static and specific. I'd sooner have generic mechanics inspired by the historical HRE than mechanics applying to actual HRE only. There should be laws to represent one's empire's centralization and vassal rights --- like CK2 already has.

The idea of HRE having imperial reforms like EU4 doesn't really apply to Crusader Kings timeframe, at least from the game start. The empire was much more centralized during the high middle ages, and the Imperial reform was only introduced as a concept in the mid-1400's. The decline in central power that happened later during the game's timeframe can be represented by changing laws and factions demanding this.

 

[Battlex]

For ck2 HRE to work we need it to reflect history more, the pope should be more active, anti-King's, anti papacy not just a thing so easily done after the investiture controversy, the investiture controversy, organic creation of the lombard league, titular ducal titles to help with the break up of places like bavaria and Luneburg, excommunication to help break feudal oaths of allegiance so a possible hit to vassal levies. Electorates being titular titles would also be quite nice, as then you could more easily swap them between the palatinate and bavarian wittlesbachs, as well as Austria to fake an electorate earlier on.

 

[LukeCreed13]

Popes need to be more active in European politics in general. As in CK2, they're just... there. If you involve yourself in religion they'll react accordingly, but politically they are basically imperceptible. Although I was disappointed of the fact we won't have Antipopes and Investiture mechanics at launch, this may very well be a good sign that they're taking all the time possible to make these mechanics be good and feel relevant. We need religious figures to be relevant politically.

As for the Italian city states, oh I'd love, LOVE to be able to pick a side in the conflicts between the Italian city states and the Emperor (and the Pope still has to play a significant part in this situation). If they ever add republics back, they could very well make a Guelph vs. Ghibellines system (or at least let the modders make one).

 

[Ezumiyr]

I don't think special mechanics for HRE is in the spirit of Crusader Kings: a game that tends towards the dynamic and generic over static and specific. I'd sooner have generic mechanics inspired by the historical HRE than mechanics applying to actual HRE only. There should be laws to represent one's empire's centralization and vassal rights --- like CK2 already has.

I reach the same conclusion, but my reasoning is different.
The HRE is not that special in the middle ages. Every "state" has its own particularities and laws, but the HRE was still largely "just" a feudal realm like other feudal realms. Free cities, factions etc are just variations on a common western (and central) european theme.
Which is why it would be better imo to have laws and features available to everyone in a feudal realm, than truly HRE-specific features.


Nothing was written in marble about the HRE or any other realm in the middle ages, especially when it comes to relations with the Church or centralization. In the same way, historical events like Guelfs vs. Ghibellines could be a startdate, but otherwise I don't want to have this kind of event forced in my game. This conflict was between two imperial dynasties fighting for the throne and the papacy. I don't want to see a guelfs and ghibellins event chain, I want to see dynasties fighting with eachother, succession crisis, and other dynasties trying to profit from the conflict. But nothing HRE-specific. Those kinds of factions should emerge in every realm big enough to host powerful dynasties.

 

[Varren]

I agree, but it's still worth discussing for the sake of broader mechanical inspiration. For instance, the Investiture Controversy shouldn't be hard coded, but it should still inform the sorts of things a Catholic emperor might face.

 

[Battlex]

I agree, but it's still worth discussing for the sake of broader mechanical inspiration. For instance, the Investiture Controversy shouldn't be hard coded, but it should still inform the sorts of things a Catholic emperor might face.

Not hard coded but going down a line, why did the investiture controversy become a thing? Because the emperor could no longer replace the pope at will/no longer wanted to. If he keeps force of arms then a captive papacy is easier, but the pope may seek help from the Kingdom of France instead, or maybe setting up anti popes doesn't hard block the malus of excommunication, only those that see your anti pope as valid ignore it, the rest are throughly displeased with you.

Guelph and ghibelline not being hard coded but to have some sort of civil war trait, ck2+ has rebel and loyalist iirc, would be nice, and maybe make it heritable/modified on inheritance like the Muhammed traits, would be real nice.

 

[zbyrne]

Some features which reflect the uniqueness of all realms would be nice (I feel EU4 does this well through events and missions - although I am not suggesting a mission system for CKIII)

So in the case of HRE, the investiture crisis, interacting with the Pope, the difference between Germany and Italy, and the various efforts to check royal power by the Dukes at various points by refusing to election the Emperor's preferred heir.

 

[luxfelix]

If heresies are intended to stand in for anti-popes (if that is the intended game design), maybe factions/societies could also include something like the previously mentioned historical Guelphs and Ghibellines?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guelphs_and_Ghibellines]

Maybe make imperial circles and imperial immediacy more integral to class rankings (along with electorate titles, etc.)?

I did like how being crowned by the Pope was seen as a much more legitimizing function than just being elected in the HRE from CKII, and I imagine that would carried over into CKIII as well.

As an alternate history, maybe there could be a way to have a captive papacy by influencing the curia (etc.); instead of the Avignon Papacy, we could have the Prague Papacy, or something?

 

[moscal]

Not only HRE, but every empire should have system of risks, reforms and hopes.

HRE was specificly, becouse had many strong vassals and even "disaster periods" (eg. Großes Interregnum). But in alt-historical scenario should be possible that other empires get similar evolution and HRE can become great and centralizated state. Every is possible (HRE leaded by ethiopian Hebrew or bogomilist Serb? Why not?)...

Ofc, individual atributes of specific empires will be also great. But IMO first should be focus on general and interesant mechanics

 

[Henry IX]

I would tend to prefer to see the Emperor-Papacy conflict to be emergent. The pope should be attempting to dominate the major powers of Europe, with the HRE clearly the most powerful state in Europe throughout the middle ages. If, say France emerges as the most powerful state the pope should be trying to meddle in the succession etc. there instead.

 

[luxfelix]

I would tend to prefer to see the Emperor-Papacy conflict to be emergent. The pope should be attempting to dominate the major powers of Europe, with the HRE clearly the most powerful state in Europe throughout the middle ages. If, say France emerges as the most powerful state the pope should be trying to meddle in the succession etc. there instead.

The Pope becomes the game's final boss.

The last dev diary touches upon this idea of more powerful clergy a bit (Pope too?).

If the Pope gives the order to all your clergy to refuse your realm the rites and services, maybe that could become a building crisis that could eventually lead to popular uprisings against your rule (similar to how excommunication provides other rulers a cassus belli) if one does not bend to the will of a powerful pope (or does not have clergy whom like you more than the pope?).

Apart from accepting a heresy, the power balance between Church & Crown could range from a captive puppet Papacy (i.e. Avignon) to direct subjugation to the Papal States (i.e. Italian states and the Pope choosing heirs to interregnums). Or, maybe there would be two vectors: The ability/power of the Papacy to influence, and their spectrum of relative dependence/independence?