The Difference Between Assault Guns, SP Artillery and Tank Destroyers

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unmerged(36286)

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This is short primer on the difference between SP-Art, AG and TD.

Before we go further, let us first understand why SP-Art, AG and TD are not "tanks."

By a WWII-era "tank," we mean a gun-armed vehicle with the following features: (1) continuous tracks for all-terrain mobility; and (2) a rotating turret; and (3) overall armor protection.

SP-Art, AG and TD had (1) but lacked one or both of (2) and (3). Collectively, these three types can be called "self-propelled guns" instead of tanks.

Let us now distinguish among the different self-propelled guns.

The best way to understand the difference among these vehicles is the intended role of each.

I. SELF PROPELLED ARTILLERY

SP artillery is used in the indirect fire role, "standing off" and lobbing shots without directly engaging the enemy. Indirect fire has the advantage of being able to strike over obstacles at targets not directly in the line of sight.

Hence, SP Artillery is a howitzer mounted on a tracked vehicle. A howitzer projects shells on a parabolic trajectory. This gives the howitzer longer range, but less impact speed, and therefore less penetration. Therefore, howitzers usually have explosive shells, for use against soft targets at long range, like infantry concentrations.

As SP Artillery is not meant to closely engage the enemy, it usually has only light armor and is often open-topped.

Example:

Hummel (Germany)
img4hummel.jpg


Sexton (Britain)
B_010363.jpg


M7 "Priest"(USA)
Priest-vi.jpg



II. TANK DESTROYER

Tank destroyers are obviously intended as antitank weapons.

Hence, Tank destroyers are anti-tank guns mounted on tracked vehicles. An anti-tank gun fires a high-velocity hardened shell on a flat trajectory, for purposes of piercing through armor. This means that an anti-tank gun is not as effective against infantry concentrations and forts, as its shell would simply rip through the impact point with minimal blast.

The first German, Soviet and British tank destroyers were hasty lash-ups of existing towed anti-tank guns on any available tracked chassis, and hence had minimal armor.

While the US was not as hard-pressed as the other three nations in their anti-tank development, early US tank destroyers also had light armor. US planners believed that all-around armor protection against infantry and close-range fire was not necessary, since their TDs would only engage enemy tanks at long range, and enemy infantry would presumably be somewhere else being dealt with by the well-armored tanks. They belatedly learned that the enemy was not so cooperative.

In 1942-43 on the Eastern Front, the Soviets and Germans quickly realized that their open-topped improvised TDs were too vulnerable, and soon switched to purpose-built heavily armored TDs. Unfortunately, the British and Americans were not paying attention, and the early US tank destroyers received a nasty shock in the French hedgerows in '44.

However, the US and British did not emulate the Soviets and Germans in using heavily armored TDs. Instead, they dropped further research into TDs and simply up-gunned and up-armored their tank designs. The reason for the divergence in approach is probably cost - this is explained in more detail below.

Examples:

Marder II (Early German TD)
mar2_8.jpg



Elefant (Advanced German TD)
fv80052-elefant-450a.jpg



III. ASSAULT GUN

AGs are intended to give direct fire support to infantry against bunkers, buildings and other fixed targets impervious to infantry small arms.

This means two things: (i) as AGs closely engage the enemy, they need to be more heavily armored than SP Art; and (ii) since AGs are used to destroy fortifications and buildings, they need to have high-explosive shells, since an armor piercing shell, for example, would simply pass through a building without knocking it down.

Hence, AGs are guns mounted on tracked vehicles. The use of the term "gun" in contrast to "howitzer" is intended to indicate that the guns mounted on AGs have a flatter trajectory suitable for direct fire.

However while AGs were originally intended for direct-fire infantry support, it was soon discovered that they were effective against tanks as well. For example, while the explosive shells fired SU-152 "Beast Killer" could not penetrate Tiger and Panther armor, the blast was so powerful that it could simply blow off the enemy's turret. Also, some of the guns used on AGs were versatile enough to be fitted with proper armor-piercing shells, so that the AGs could be used as tank destroyers.

Examples:

SU-152 "Beast Killer" (Soviet)
pb1703.jpg



Sturmpanzer IV "Brummbar" (German)
brummbar_fotobn2.jpg



Why Not Just Build Tanks?

The US, Britain and Germany extensively used specialized self-propelled artillery. The Soviet Union did not have specialized self-propelled artillery, but they had assault guns that could perform indirect fire support (e.g. SU-76 and ISU-152).

However, the US and UK did not use assault guns at all. Also, they used open-topped tank destroyers only in the early stages of their armor development. When they belatedly realized that their open-topped TDs were too vulnerable, they did not go on to build the heavily-armored AG and TD behemoths that the Germans and Soviets so loved. Instead, they simply used up-gunned and up-armored tanks to fill the roles served by the German and Soviet casemate-style designs.

The reason for the divergence in armor development is simple: tanks may be superior overall, but AGs and TDs are much cheaper.

This is because AGs and TDs do not have the tank's complex rotating turret. Being simpler and cheaper, AGs and TDs can be built more quickly and in greater numbers.

The simpler construction also means that (i) they are usually more reliable, which means that less resources are consumed in repair and maintenance; and (ii) more armor can be piled on, as the simple design eliminates the weight of the turret's machinery.

This explains why Germany and the Soviet Union were the only nations to use these beasts on a large scale. These two nations were engaged in four years of desperate armored combat where hundreds of tanks were destroyed on almost daily basis. Fast, cheap production of reliable armor had a value on the Eastern Front far greater than it had in the West or the Pacific.

However, when economy is not such a vital consideration, tanks are overall the better choice. The rotating turret gives the tank an unmatched mobility and versatility.

This is why the US and Britain, with the luxury of mature, highly mobilized industries and longer production lines, and who never suffered tank losses on the scale experienced by the Eastern Front combatants, never felt an urgent need for heavily armored AGs and TDs. Instead, they simply produced enough tanks mounting different types of guns to fill the infantry support and antitank roles.

However, had the US and Britain experienced armored warfare on the scale of the Eastern Front, I think it likely that they would have taken AG and TD development more seriously.

This why I think that AoD is correct in allowing all powers, not just the nations that historically used them, to develop and use AGs and TDs. Then I can play out my fantasies of a British Tortoise desperately defending London in 1945 or a T28 assault gun destroying oncoming Kingtigers in the ruins of New York in 1949. :)


Simulating Tank Destroyers, Assault Guns and SP_Art in AoD

The early TD models would be represented by the lightly-armored TDs (e.g. Marder, Archer, M36 Jackson) and the advanced TD models would be the heavily armored monsters (Elefant, Jagdtiger, etc.).

The divergence in Ger/Sov and US/Brit TD development could then be explained in AoD game terms as Ger/Sov continuing research from the early to the advanced models, while US/Brit stopped researching the advanced TD models and focused on tank development. Of course, an AoD player would be free to follow a different path.

As for AGs, there is some confusion due to the fact that AGs were often used as tank hunters. Nonetheless, AGs such as the StuG III and the SU-152 "Beast Killer" were primarily designed as infantry support weapons and their guns were best suited for that role. The fact that they were widely used as a tank hunters simply reflects two things: (i) the AG's guns were versatile enough to effectively use AP shells, or they used hi-ex shells powerful enough to kill a tank crew from the sheer blast; and (ii) unavailability of purpose-built tank destroyers and tanks.

This can be modeled in AoD simply by doing the following:

1. making AGs cheaper to build than TDs.

(Historically, AGs were cheaper because howitzers are cheaper than anti-tank guns - that's why there were usually more AGs around than TDs. This also explains why they ended up being pressed into an anti-tank role - commanders scrounged desperately around for any available armor to stop tank assaults, and chanced upon the AGs much more than the scarce TDs.)

2. giving them good soft and hard attack values (reflecting the versatility of their guns).

3. The soft attack should be higher than the hard attack, to represent the intended purpose as an infantry support weapon. In comparison to the other mobile guns, the soft attack should be lower than SP_Art and the hard attack should be lower than TD. AG therefore represents a good low cost all-around weapon - which is historically why so many were built in the first place.

[Author's note: Credits to alant, Mjarr, Eugenioso and GAGA for providing additional insights which are incorporated in the revised version of this post.]

Implementation

How can I implement these into the game? Okay, I can rename the SP-Art types in the config/models.csv and can also change the according pictures. But where is the Assault Gun? Or its pictures?

1. Unit Stats

Simply change the appropriate values in db/units/brigades. The assault guns are in the file named b_u5.

2. Country-specific names and graphics

config/boostertext.csv has the following lines for generic assault guns:

BRIG_MODEL_35_0;Early Assault Gun;Canon d'assaut I;Cannone d'Assalto di base;Cañón de asalto básico;Einfaches Sturmgeschütz;Podstawowe Dzia³o Szturmowe;Arma de Assalto Básica;Áàçîâîå øòóðìîâîå îðóäèå;;;X
BRIG_MODEL_35_1;Basic Assault Gun;Canon d'assaut II;Cannone d'Assalto migliorato;Cañón de asalto mejorado;Verbessertes Sturmgeschütz;Ulepszone Dzia³o Szturmowe;Arma de Assalto Melhorada;Óëó÷ø. øòóðìîâîå îðóäèå;;;X
BRIG_MODEL_35_2;Improved Assault Gun;Canon d'assaut III;Cannone d'Assalto avanzato;Cañón de asalto avanzado;Fortgeschrittenes Sturmgeschütz;Zaawansowane Dzia³o Szturmowe;Arma de Assalto Avançada;Óñîâåðø. øòóðìîâîå îðóäèå;;;X

you can insert country-specific lines below that, for example:

BRIG_MODEL_GER_35_0;StuG III;;;;;;;;;;X
BRIG_MODEL_GER_35_1;StuH 42;;;;;;;;;;X
BRIG_MODEL_GER_35_2;Brummbar;;;;;;;;;;X
BRIG_MODEL_SOV_35_0;AT 1;;;;;;;;;;X
BRIG_MODEL_SOV_35_1;SU 152 'Beast Killer';;;;;;;;;;X
BRIG_MODEL_SOV_35_2;ISU 152;;;;;;;;;;X

The space before each semicolon represents a specific language. Just fill in the translated name at the appropriate point if you play in other languages.

In gfx/interface/models you can insert country-specific pictures as long as you name them correspondingly.

for example, for BRIG_MODEL_GER_35_0 you can insert a picture in gfx/interface/models of a StuG III (bmp and formatted to the same size as the other icon pictures) named as follows:

ill_bri_ger_35_0
 
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Need to mention the US Army doctrine in which tanks were supposed to support infantry by fighting the enemy infantry, while tank destroyers were supposed to fight enemy tanks.

US tank destroyers expected to rely on speed instead of heavy armor, they were to maneuver to engage enemy tanks from the flank or other favorable positions.

This doctrine didn't work out so well on the battlefield, and US tanks suffered from having relatively low velocity guns, while the tank destroyers couldn't stand and fight toe to toe with German tanks because they lacked armor. US tank destroyers weren't supposed to fight infantry and often had open tops.

Eventually the US Shermans started getting higher velocity 76mm guns and the tank destroyers started getting heavier armor - for example the M36 Jackson (used as late as the 1990's Balkan Wars).
 
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that is so true. sure in paper it sounded like a great strategy, but when they found out that whoever they fought was not going to be so cooperative when it came to fighting, they indeed began to arm their tanks with higher caliber guns. the only example i can recall is the Sherman Firefly, armed with a 17 pounder gun (aka, some heavy s@#t)
 
This doctrine didn't work out so well on the battlefield, and US tanks suffered from having relatively low velocity guns, while the tank destroyers couldn't stand and fight toe to toe with German tanks because they lacked armor.

Despite having 'low velocity' guns, Sherman vs Pz4 or StuG was mostly about who hit the first. Panther, Tiger or such are obviously bit diffrent story, but by 1944 almost every basic AFV was capable of taking down another AFV with moderate ease. Then the problem of armour protection also became apparent, as it took basically Jumbo Sherman with it's very thick and highly sloped armour to actually be able to survive almost any hit to the glacis of front hull, while turret was still relatively unprotected.

As much as germans had their advatange in optics and firepower, against western allies it would mostly apply on 1000m+ range. Under that it would be mostly about who managed to hit first, presuming the angle wasn't entirely FUBAR. Early Sherman vs Panther would be bit diffrent story, but 76m cannon vs Panther and then it would again remotedly resemble who managed to hit first as both tanks' turret would be mostly unable to withstand enemy AP shell compared to the glacis, unless we're talking pretty extreme range.

Of course issues caused by ammo quality is another story, as US 76mm guns seemed to suffer from poorly made caps as based on certain tests and reports they had extremely variable penetration capability, and it mostly became obvious once the shell either was flying too fast or the steel was made from good\high quality. Such variables were half impossible to predict until practical experiences hinted that something was indeed wrong.
 
US 75mm (75L38) gun mounted on most US Shermans was lower velocity relative to what was mounted on German armor including Stug III and PzKw IV (75L48). US armor units didn't, that I recall, get all that many 76mm armed Shermans until very late.

US Tank Destroyers (M10 and M18) got the 76mm, and later 90mm (M36), in greater numbers than the Shermans.
 
As far as I can recall, most theoreticians in armor were basically agreeing that speed trumps armor and the best designs favor firepower over protection. IE, you want to fight a tank with good armor and a big gun, use a better gun and lost some armor if you have to.
 
US 75mm (75L38) gun mounted on most US Shermans was lower velocity relative to what was mounted on German armor including Stug III and PzKw IV (75L48).

Yes it was relatively low velocity, yet the overall performance was sufficient enough to KO most of the german medium AFVs under roughly 800 yards with some reliability. Of course the gun accuracy, optics, crew training and experience are what becomes more decisive factors and then comes the question: what vehicle? Both Sherman and PzIV turret have relatively 'poor' protection compared to opponent's firepower. Of course hitting to such target at over 800-1200+ range (presuming such engagement, let's say on a single, narrow long road) is not that easy, but both tanks' glacis is sufficient to deflect enemy shell, unless we're talking about the shit happens(tm) factor that something unexpected might just happen. StuG might be bit diffrent animal unless there is some really lucky shot, and Panther is also bit problematic.

US Tank Destroyers (M10 and M18) got the 76mm, and later 90mm (M36), in greater numbers than the Shermans.

Generally speaking every US vehicle using 76mm gun suffered (to some point) from the problem of unreliable shells regarding penetration, a phenomena referred as shatter gap. The british 17 pounder's tungsten ammunition also had some similiar issues noted in certain cases. What makes shatter gap such odd problem is that it's extremely uncontrollable variable as it can be either triggered either (or in combination) by ammo quality or armour quality.
 
Need to mention the US Army doctrine in which tanks were supposed to support infantry by fighting the enemy infantry, while tank destroyers were supposed to fight enemy tanks.

US tank destroyers expected to rely on speed instead of heavy armor, they were to maneuver to engage enemy tanks from the flank or other favorable positions.

Actually, most vehicles that the US designated as "tank destroyer" could be defined as tanks - they had a rotating turret, such as the M36:

300px-M36-GMC-Danbury.0004zx4t.jpg


What distinguished these types of US "tanks" was a severe focus on mobility and firepower over armor protection, to the extent that the turret was even open-topped.

I find it quite telling that the US and Britain only used strict self-propelled gun designs (without a turret) relatively early in its armored warfare development. Examples: the US M-10 - rushed into service in 1941 as response to the blitzkrieg victory in France; the British Archer - a hasty lash-up of the 17 pounder antitank gun with the outmoded Valentine chassis.

This tells me that economy was the primary consideration, as the need to rush a mobile gun into service trumped the extra development and build time needed for a rotating turret.
 
I guess that depends on your definition of tanks. Some people refer to STuGs as "tanks". :)

Here is an M-36 Jackson Tank Destroyer shown from above.
119M-36-med.jpg


Without overhead protection it is succeptable to artillery, aircraft straffing and close infantry assault in ways a "real tank" is not.

Note the lack of a bow machinegun, something common to most WWII tanks. You may find some pictures of Jacksons with a bow machinegun, but those were mostly added after WWII. My Googling indicates it did not have a coaxial machingun either, so the crew must expose themselves to fire their only machinegun.

This is a purpose built weapon system which lacks flexibility/versatility. But it did provide something important - a 90mm gun to engage and destroy heavy German AFVs at long range. Eventually the M26 Pershing was able to provide that ability in the form of an actual tank.
 
I guess that depends on your definition of tanks. Some people refer to STuGs as "tanks". :)

If we're going to nitpick with the term, yes calling StuG as a tank is incorrect. However, I am quite positive you'll understand what I was going after even when I referred it as tank rather than tank destroyer, self propelled artillery, assault gun, Sturmgeschütz, Sturmi or any other of the names, nicknames or classifications what it was referred (and is) as :p

Actually shall we start referring tanks as AFV to be even more accurate? :rofl:
 
Mjarr,

I'm just trying to further the OP's line of discussion. There are differences between tanks and tank destroyers, and the doctrinal employment of tank destroyers verses that of tanks. The M36 is an example, and I'm showing how that vehicile in particular differs from a tank such as the Sherman.

I'm quite sure a German tanker would have understood the difference and wanted to know whether he was facing Shermans or US tank destroyers.
 
Mjarr,

I'm just trying to further the OP's line of discussion. There are differences between tanks and tank destroyers, and the doctrinal employment of tank destroyers verses that of tanks. The M36 is an example, and I'm showing how that vehicile in particular differs from a tank such as the Sherman.

I'm quite sure a German tanker would have understood the difference and wanted to know whether he was facing Shermans or US tank destroyers.

I agree with you in that the US "tank destroyers," with their light (almost suicidal) protection, did not have the level of protection that we expect of tanks.

What I hoped to explain in my original post was why the US and Britain never adopted on large scale the casemate-style non-turreted self-propelled guns that the Soviets and Germans did.

In an earlier thread regarding this topic there were even calls for AGs to be attachable only to German and Soviet units.

My point is that the situation developed out of considerations of economy, not due to any intrinsic difference, and that had the US and Britain suffered comparable armored losses they would also have resorted to such designs.
 
Note that the thread starter, Panzerjaeger, lists Stugs as assault guns examples. This is correct while the game has Stugs in the SP Arty tech list and only on the bottom one or two techs on that list. Stugs were the bread and butter assault gun of the German army for the entire war and were still the backbone of many infantry defensive actions right up into 1945.

The CORE mod fixes Stugs in the game but may not yet be ready for AoD.
 
What distinguished these types of US "tanks" was a severe focus on mobility and firepower over armor protection, to the extent that the turret was even open-topped.
Now that we are at this point: Would it be wise to add a heavily armored "tank hunter" brigade that includes heavily armored models like the german Elefant, Jagdpanther or Jagdtiger?

For example, the Combat Mission series used such a distinction between different tank hunter / destroyer models.

Note that the thread starter, Panzerjaeger, lists Stugs as assault guns examples. This is correct while the game has Stugs in the SP Arty tech list and only on the bottom one or two techs on that list. Stugs were the bread and butter assault gun of the German army for the entire war and were still the backbone of many infantry defensive actions right up into 1945.
To add to the confusion: The StuG III series (mostly from model F/8 upwards) was also used as a tank hunter against the early T-34 models in 1941, 1942 and 1943.
 
Later on the Stug III and StuG IV were almost exclusively used in the anti-tank role. That was the reason for designing the StuH42 - a StuG III with an 105mm howitzer, over 1,000 units built.

Germans used some different designations for AFV intended to fight enemy tanks. The lightly armored or converted vehicles like the Marder series were called Panzerjäger (includes the heavy Ferdinand/Elefant. The more heavily armored purpose-built ones were called Jagdpanzer.
 
Later on the Stug III and StuG IV were almost exclusively used in the anti-tank role. That was the reason for designing the StuH42 - a StuG III with an 105mm howitzer, over 1,000 units built.

Germans used some different designations for AFV intended to fight enemy tanks. The lightly armored or converted vehicles like the Marder series were called Panzerjäger (includes the heavy Ferdinand/Elefant. The more heavily armored purpose-built ones were called Jagdpanzer.

The Stug series were all assault guns. They were meant for busting bunkers and culling enemy troops. But yes, they were used almost exclusively as anti-tank guns on most of the eastern front cause of the lack of tanks. Some of the Waffen SS divisions conducting the fighting retreat from Leningrad to the Corland only had a few Stugs and no tanks at all. The Stug has the heart of a lion to fight against the armored beasts of the late war Red Army and give them a good kicking too.
 
Now that we are at this point: Would it be wise to add a heavily armored "tank hunter" brigade that includes heavily armored models like the german Elefant, Jagdpanther or Jagdtiger?

It might be over complicating matters to further distinguish between "tank destroyers" and "tank hunters."

I think all nations that initially adopted the lightly-armored tank destroyers (whether due to hasty lash-ups as in Eng/Ger/Sov or due to mistaken doctrine as in US case) quickly found these vehicles too vulnerable.

In the case of Ger/Sov, they simply adopted the heavily armored tank hunters as soon as they could. In the case of Brit/US, because their economies could afford it, they did not pursue development on their TDs and simply switched over to up-gunned and up-armored tanks (Sherman Firefly, Pershing, etc.).

This could be easily simulated by having the early TD models be the lightly-armored TDs (e.g. Marder, Archer, M36 Jackson) and the advanced TD models be the heavily armored monsters (Elefant, Jagdpanzer, etc.).

The divergence in Ger/Sov and US/Brit TD development could then be explained in AoD game terms as Ger/Sov continuing research from the early to the advanced models, while US/Brit stopped researching the advanced TD models and focused on tank development. An AoD player would be free to follow a different path.

To add to the confusion: The StuG III series (mostly from model F/8 upwards) was also used as a tank hunter against the early T-34 models in 1941, 1942 and 1943.

The Stug III and other AGs such as the SU-152 "Beast Killer" were primarily designed as infantry support weapons and their guns were best suited for that role. The fact that they were widely used as a tank hunters simply reflects two things: (i) the AG's guns were versatile enough to effectively use AP shells, or they used hi-ex shells powerful enough to kill a tank crew from the sheer blast; and (ii) unavailability of purpose-built tank destroyers and tanks.

This can be modeled in AoD simply by doing the following:

1. making AGs cheaper to build than TDs.

(Historically, AGs were cheaper because howitzers are cheaper than anti-tank guns - that's why there were usually more AGs around than TDs. This also explains why they ended up being pressed into an anti-tank role - commanders scrounged desperately around for any available armor to stop tank assaults, and chanced upon the AGs much more than the scarce TDs.)

2. giving them good soft and hard attack values (reflecting the versatility of their guns).

3. The soft attack should be higher than the hard attack, to represent the intended purpose as an infantry support weapon. In comparison to the other mobile guns, the soft attack should be lower than SP_Art and the hard attack should be lower than TD. AG therefore represents a good low cost all-around weapon - which is historically why so many were built in the first place.
 
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