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The Black Earth of Ukraine

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unmerged(62241)

Lt. General
Oct 31, 2006
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I'm reading No Simple Victory by Norman Davies, and he has mentioned twice so far how Germany transported the rich, black earth of Ukraine back to Germany. Or it might have been Poland or somewhere else, but I just assume Germany.

Anyway, this is the first time I've ever heard of such an undertaking. Anyone know anything more about this? I know the Reich didn't shrink from attempting massive projects, but this seems massive even for them. Of course, I'm sure they used slave labor to load and unload the soil, but still.
 
Nah, I'm pretty sure it's about soil. Nothing special here, ever bought soil for crops in gardening shops? Germany during the WWII had such needs as well. I can imagine them transporting soil back to Reich either for research or for some more important crop plantations.

It's whole different story if it was mass scale transfer. I can even imagine they wanted to do it en masse (we are talking Nazi Germany with their gigantomania after all), but in the end they never did.
 
Alojzy said:
Nah, I'm pretty sure it's about soil. Nothing special here, ever bought soil for crops in gardening shops? Germany during the WWII had such needs as well. I can imagine them transporting soil back to Reich either for research or for some more important crop plantations.

It's whole different story if it was mass scale transfer. I can even imagine they wanted to do it en masse (we are talking Nazi Germany with their gigantomania after all), but in the end they never did.
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Yes, I bought soil before-for my 8' by 20' vegetable garden...

I assumed it was mass transfer, or why bother mentioning it? What I was wondering was things like whose idea it was, how much was actually transferred, and if it actually made any difference at all.

Maybe I will email Norman Davies!!
 
Are you sure this isn't a metaphor mlipo? I doubt there would be any massive plan to strip Ukraine of soil, don't recall reading it in the plans for the Ukraine nor ever seeing anything about such a scheme. It would also be pointless as the plan was to move retired German soldiers into farms there?
 
It indeed sounds more logical if the Germans transported the 'produce' of the black soil to their country
 
Well, I left the book at home-I will bring it to work tomorrow and actually give you the quotes if I can still find them. :)

I don't think Davies was being metaphorical, but I will let you guys decide.
 
Why methaphorical?

Germans were stealing whatever they wanted on the occupied territories, especially eastern ones. Gauleiter Koch on Ukraine was sort of a dark legend of German occupation administration. They might have been stealing soil as well, just because they could. Assuming that occupation authorities wanted to spare something, because in X years from then German colonists will come there is a bit optimistic view of how they worked - and maybe what Davies wanted to dispel with his example. ;)
 
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Transporting soil from Ukraine just sounds odd though Alozjy.

The plan was to settle Germans in the Ukraine to farm the land. Why take the soil? I can understand taking samples or small quantities, but I'm sure there would be something in something I've read which would have mentioned any large scale removal of soil as part of the occupation - it surely would have been a major undertaking?

I mean, who would be doing it? How would they transport it? When did they do it - 41 the focus was on the military, 42 was in feeding the Heer from the occupied Soviet Union and 43 was about retreating? Questions like these make me sceptical, although if Davies has hard evidence contrary then that would be very interesting.
 
Zebedee said:
Transporting soil from Ukraine just sounds odd though Alozjy.

The plan was to settle Germans in the Ukraine to farm the land. Why take the soil? I can understand taking samples or small quantities, but I'm sure there would be something in something I've read which would have mentioned any large scale removal of soil as part of the occupation - it surely would have been a major undertaking?
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For the record, I don't think it was anything on the "true Nazi scale", like Hunger Plan or any of their other massive "projects". I'm more willing to assume, that Davies spotted somewhere note about some project that involved extracting and transporting rich soil to Germany for whatever Reich science it need (like they didn't have many wierd programmes). Or even transporting soil for Himmler/Goering/whatever nazi official private gardens. Whatever goal they wanted to achieve with that, it struck him as so nonsensical (just like most of the people here) that he included it in his work.

Zebedee said:
I mean, who would be doing it? How would they transport it? When did they do it - 41 the focus was on the military, 42 was in feeding the Heer from the occupied Soviet Union and 43 was about retreating? Questions like these make me sceptical, although if Davies has hard evidence contrary then that would be very interesting.
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I would say late 1942, early 43 would be the best shot.

Before that, most of the transports going back to Reich were too busy with Holocaust, which was mainly over on those areas by the end of 1942. After that, rail transport going back to Reich would be less strained. Of course, that's assuming we are talking about something bigger then small number of shipments taking maybe few trainloads.

Again, I haven't read Davies book. In general, I find such "book about whole war" type of works too unfocused and sketchy at the best, chaotic in the worst case. Besides, I find him lacking when it comes to military matters (he is much better when it comes to politics and social aspects of the history). From his latest works Rising 44' looks certainly better because of clear focus.
 
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Here are the passages:

"Millions of slave labourers were imported from theEast. So too were trainloads of black earth from Ukraine and oil from Romania." p. 32

"And it [Nazi Policy in the East] exploited the land, not simply by seizing vast quantities of grain, livestock and timber, but also by attempting to transport to Germany the fertile "black earth" itself." p. 165-166.
 
Again, I'm a big fan of Tooze-like history writing.

Details. Numbers. Big, juicy tables with adnotation about the sources. Some trivia here and there (volk-products were mighty funny passage, same with utter failure of submarine modular production), but only as a bonus.

Of course, it won't happen in such "about whole war" book. Nor it does have to, it got different market target. Putting earth together with oil and slaves might suggest that all 3 "resources" had same strategic value for Reich, which I doubt (in case of soil, of course). Second passage is more balanced, as Germans here were only "attempting" to transport soil, which makes much more sense.
 
Alojzy, I get your preferences when it comes to historical works. If Davies provided figures, tables, and details I wouldn't have started the thread. However, I thought the topic unusual enough to ask for help. :)
 
mlipo said:
Here are the passages:

"Millions of slave labourers were imported from theEast. So too were trainloads of black earth from Ukraine and oil from Romania." p. 32

"And it [Nazi Policy in the East] exploited the land, not simply by seizing vast quantities of grain, livestock and timber, but also by attempting to transport to Germany the fertile "black earth" itself." p. 165-166.
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Does he provide any references?

Otherwise, the language is sufficiently vague to make it quite probable that he's specifically drawing attention to some fairly minor instances or plans for dramatic effect. While sending some soil back to Germany for experimentation or limited use is completely possible, I would really doubt that it was conducted on the same scale as oil transfers.
 
Yup and then they disassembled the Ukrainian coal mines and set them up in the Ruhr
hitler-nods.gif
 
Sarmatia1871 said:
Does he provide any references?

Otherwise, the language is sufficiently vague to make it quite probable that he's specifically drawing attention to some fairly minor instances or plans for dramatic effect. While sending some soil back to Germany for experimentation or limited use is completely possible, I would really doubt that it was conducted on the same scale as oil transfers.
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No, no references. In his intro, he specifically mentions that he will not be providing sources for most references, because his purpose is to rearrange, juxtapose, and reintegrate well-established facts. Of course, it seems that black earth transport isn't a well-established fact...:p

I have emailed authors in the past, but the only email I can find for Davies is his literary agent.
 
Thanks mlipo. It's certainly an odd one, though I'm sure Davies must have some form of source. My scepticism comes from reports such as the one I'll cite below on German plans during the war for manipulating and managing the Ukraine in which there is no mention of any movement of the actual soil. My feelings are that Davies is using perhaps isolated incidents to make his point (perhaps overly hyperbolic) but I'd love to know where he found the information :)

IV. Food supplies for the German civilian population

1) Only after covering the army’s needs, which under any circumstance must occur out of the eastern areas, may there be shipments to Germany to cover civilian needs. Deviations to secondary areas are to be avoided under any circumstances. Priority is to be given to the shipment of oil seeds – especially sunflower seeds, but also linen seed, cotton seed and soy beans – to Germany in order to improve the fats balance.

2) Only after the transport of the oil seeds has been handled can there be shipments of grain, which of course are extremely desirable as Greater Germany must increasingly supply the occupied areas and also stock up its own reserves after the bad harvest of 1940 and the at best average harvest to be expected this year.

source: Guidelines of Economic Policy for the Economic Organization of the East, 23/5/1941, prepared by the Agriculture Group
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