Stellaris Dev Diary #160 - Origins Full Reveal

[Pointyearedgit]

I disagree with the premise of your argument, on the grounds that Crusader Kings 2 is marketed as a historically accurate strategy game. It's unfair because history is unfair, the game tells you this straightaway, and then challenges the player to change history.

Stellaris does no such thing. Any person would be perfectly within their rights to complain about balance issues in a game that doesn't use CKII's marketing strategy, because the basic assumption of any normal game is that it will be a fair and balanced experience.

So, no, not hypocrisy. Your arguments so far strike me as illogical from anything other than an apologist's perspective, where the point of the argument isn't to be consistent with itself, but to be consistent with the idea that the game cannot be wrong.

Some blatantly unfair aspects of Stellaris are fun though, like Fallen Empires. Granted, most of the playables are more similar in power level.

 

[Fermi's_Solution]

Well this is an philosophical argument now, isn't it? What is Stellaris supposed to be? Is it supposed to be consistent with the expectations players have from previous Paradox titles, a "CKII in space", and therefore implicitly unbalanced as its predecessor? That's certainly why I bought it. I wanted CKII in space. I wanted unbalance. And I get unbalance. Everything is as it should be.

If you came at it from (for some reason unknown to me) a perspective of "I expect e-sport tier fine balancing of pwoer levels", then sure, i can imagine the disregard of balance would annoy you, but... all I can really say to that is NO U misinterpreted what you were buying here, not me.

... what?

No, really. What? Like, what the actual fuck am I reading, here?

Screw it, I can't even reason with you. It's like you can't see outside your own head.

Some blatantly unfair aspects of Stellaris are fun though, like Fallen Empires. Granted, most of the playables are more similar in power level.

I honestly wouldn't call FE's unfair. They follow very clear rules, which the game explains ahead of time in the interface. It's handled well enough that I'd fault the player for dying to them, and they can't even actually kill you until you're able to fight back.

I say they're fair, and challenging, and that's what makes them fun. Though, I'm starting to get the weird impression that most people here think you can't have fair and challenging at the same time, and that's extremely false.

 

[SeekingEtermity]

That comment was to be expected, but I think it's a bit unfair.
In the past people have complained that the content of each DLC is disconnected from the content of other DLCs, and lamented that this meant hives and machine empires would never get meaningful attention in new DLCs. So now these empire types do get some special attention, and now the complaint is you can't access some of the content without having two DLCs.

You can't have it both ways.

Disagree. You can add new content to an old DLC in the free update. The complaints aren't because Megacorp didn't add anything to hive minds, it's that 2.2 (or anything else since Utopia's release, with the exception of Lithoids that added Lithoid-only stuff) didn't add anything to hive minds.

Also, by your logic, Resource Consolidation shouldn't be behind Synthetic Dawn, but also Federations. Why do Synthetic Dawn owners get new (not promoted-from-a-civic, but outright new) content for free when Utopia owners don't?

 

[Methone]

You can't have it both ways. "CKII and EUIV are good because human players are better than the AI and can turn a minor into a powerhouse... but Stellaris is bad because human players are better than the AI and can turn a minor into a powerhouse".

See what I mean when I accuse balance-complainers of hypocrisy?

No, it's not hypocrisy, and here's why:

The AI, in Stellaris, can't turn a minor into a powerhouse. You're not supposed to be able to. In CK and EU it's a feature to be able to. In Stellaris, it's a flaw of the AI that lets you.

I trust that clears it up?

 

[SeekingEtermity]

Wait, there's variety in relic worlds? I thought they were all the same. In fact, I've only ever gotten the same exact feature loadout every single time I've found a relic world.

And on that note, I've never found a relic world outside the pre-scripted events.


Minor correction: it's possible, albeit weird and gimmicky, for a non-gestalt empire to get both energy and mining districts on a habitat. It requires the planet to have both mineral and energy deposits, and this causes the habitat to lose its leisure district. If you want to try this, you can do it naturally with the Dragon's Horde planet, or you can force it to happen with the Surveyor artifact.

I'd much rather have two habitats though, because trying to squeeze 24 pops into one itty bitty sardine can while still meeting all my basic resource needs and stockpiling alloys for another habitat and still having room for hydroponic farms sounds like a thrice-damned nightmare.

Heh, thanks for the tip about the dual-resource-deposit planets. But yes, you really need at least two habitats, unless you want to start with one filled to the brim and nowhere to put more people.

 

[Major Malfunction]

I have the very same feeling I had when Ancient Relics have been released. Because pre-patch Archaeology gave you miniscule and negligable bonuses and almost all dig sites rewarded you with something like...300 research points(when you earned 1000 monthly) or 1000 minerals or 500 energy. Then, after a patch a lot of arch. digs got seriously buffed, but still remained somewhat bland.
So far Origins feel half-baked, incompleted, bland and uninteresting, save for few.

 

[Major Malfunction]

I won't lie, I'm bit disappointed.
- only one default origin (which doesn't even make sense for all ethics)
- 4 origins are just former civics
- Remnants, Shattered Ring and Void Dwellers are nice to have but they are just variations on already explored themes and trivially easy to make. 7/18 origins are just "you start on that rare planet type".
- Scion is heavily dependant on the kind of interactions you can have with your FE overlord. It has potential to just be extremely boring.
- Galactic Doostep sounds very underpowered and uninteresting. Lost Colony seems to be in the same situation (you don't have any bonus, and unless there are cool events about the other empire of the same species, it doesn't sound very fun either).
- Tree of Life sounds just like an overpowered modifier. Calamitous Birth looks similar.
- On the Shoulders of Giants, Doomsday looks fun, depending on what kind of stories it generates.
- Common Ground and Hegemon sound fun but that screenshot gives me the impression that early expansion will be a mess in such a clustered start.

Wait & See I guess but I was hoping for more. I feel like I only have the possibility to try 5 or 6 potentially fun origins, and I already know some of them won't be that fun anyway.

Additionally, many origins are locked behind DLCs, so that's kinda horrible for people who didn't buy them. They get... 3 origins to pick from? I really, really think that we need more default, government dependant origins.

Exactly. For example Tree of Life bonus is semi-redundant because most players will start a new game should they lose their capital, which is the most protected usually. And MP sessions players usually surrender and quite should they lose their capital. It is a penalty that could only affect your race in theory, not in practice.
Galactic Doorspet is, what, 2500 or 5000 alloys to build and activate? And then it will sit there until late game doing nothing.

 

[Calad]

I have the very same feeling I had when Ancient Relics have been released. Because pre-patch Archaeology gave you miniscule and negligable bonuses and almost all dig sites rewarded you with something like...300 research points(when you earned 1000 monthly) or 1000 minerals or 500 energy. Then, after a patch a lot of arch. digs got seriously buffed, but still remained somewhat bland.
So far Origins feel half-baked, incompleted, bland and uninteresting, save for few.

Excatly this.

I wonder how the starts are scaled. If they are random does the ai ever game a normal planet start? To me it seems like the vanilla start has been disabled.

 

[Monturiol]

The AI, in Stellaris, can't turn a minor into a powerhouse.

Nor can the AI turn a minor into a powerhouse in CKII/EUIV, so... what point are you making?

You're not supposed to be able to. In CK and EU it's a feature to be able to. In Stellaris, it's a flaw of the AI that lets you.

Two things:

1. On what basis are you claiming that you're not supposed to be able to turn a Stellaris minor into a powerhouse? Are you a wizard of teleology? Do you have Doomdark's design document in your hands? If so, scans plz? Seriously, why would you think this, given that Stellaris was developed by the same people who made CKII and EUIV?
   
2. CKII and EUIV has an AI not using its full power level too. If Paradox thought their players were inveterate masochists they could just code it so France / Byzantium / China / all FEs DoWs the player every decade, see how long anyone lasts against that. The purpose of AI is not to bring to bear the full weight of Skynet against the player: it's to make a fun game. If that means making the AI make suboptimal strategic choices, there's nothing wrong with that. Some of the suboptimal choices that Stellaris' AI makes are clearly non-WAD, sure, but "Not crushing player minors like flies at the first opportunity"? Be fair to Paradox, that certainly could be a feature, not a bug. And if it's a feature, great. If it's a bug... well, better for a player minor to survive due to a bug than not at all.

 

[FiddleSticks96]

If that means making the AI make suboptimal strategic choices, there's nothing wrong with that.

There is a difference between the AI making suboptimal choices (nothing wrong with that, I do it all the time for RP purposes) and failing to grasp that it needs to provide sufficient food to feed its population (forget the Market, just sell all your excess food to the AI empires come midgame, you'll make a killing because they're all starving), or being unable to conquer a planet because it doesn't know how to land an army half the time, or burning all of its influence by constantly toggling population controls, or my personal favorite, suiciding its navy by sending its fleets at your doomstack one at a time, often within minutes of each other when they could have just waiting a bit longer to have a fighting chance (the AI in this game couldn't fight its way out of a wet paper bag).

Nobody is arguing for Dark Souls: Stellaris Edition, they are arguing that, at a minimum, the AI should be able to competently execute the most rudimentary tasks of the game, which it has been unable to do since somewhere between 2.0 and 2.2.

 

[Jako473]

Do you guys have to spawn them so close together? It almost guarantees one or more of these empires will be blocked off and relegated to a single system empire. If you gave them more space, they would be able to reliably expand into at least small empires. If it's like your screenshot, it's essentially a race to see who can screw over who faster. Not exactly what I had in mind for an origin that's supposed to be based on friendship and cooperation.

Ever heard of the Triple Alliance?

 

[Monturiol]

they are arguing that, at a minimum, the AI should be able to competently execute the most rudimentary tasks of the game, which it has been unable to do since somewhere between 2.0 and 2.2.

And I completely agree with that. The AI is very bad at some things and should be fixed.

But what @Methone was doing was complaining about a symptom of bad AI (namely: player minors can overcome adveristy and go on to Galactic Conquest) that's not actually a bad symptom. The cause is bad, but the symptom is good. Like how sickle-cell anemia prevents you from getting malaria. Yeah, ideally, you wouldn't get malaria because mosquito-eradication programmes have killed all the vectors, or something, but don't make the perfect the enemy of the good here.

Complaining about things that aren't actually problems risks getting the legitimate criticism lost in the noise.

 

[FiddleSticks96]

And I completely agree with that. The AI is very bad at some things and should be fixed.

But what @Methone was doing was complaining about a symptom of bad AI (namely: player minors can overcome adveristy and go on to Galactic Conquest) that's not actually a bad symptom. The cause is bad, but the symptom is good. Like how sickle-cell anemia prevents you from getting malaria. Yeah, ideally, you wouldn't get malaria because mosquito-eradication programmes have killed all the vectors, or something, but don't make the perfect the enemy of the good here.

Complaining about things that aren't actually problems risks getting the legitimate criticism lost in the noise.

I find this statement to be unassailable. I have no choice but to agree.

What do you think about the glaring imbalance between machines vs organics and hives vs everything else? I know you've previously stated that you enjoy the imbalance. I personally don't mind if the game isn't perfectly balance, but some semblance of balance should be necessary. For example, many hive civics were identical with non-hive civics up until the be civic rebalance, where non-hive civics got changed or buffed while their hive equivalent civics were left untouched. I find this to be negligent at best and obtuse at worst.

 

[Incompetent]

Galactic Doorspet is, what, 2500 or 5000 alloys to build and activate? And then it will sit there until late game doing nothing.

A guaranteed ruined Gateway in your territory means that you will roll the technology sooner and more reliably (who knows, maybe the origin itself will give extra weight to the tech).

I mean I agree, it's not great, but it is a little more impactful than just saving you a few resources on your first Gateway. It's a decent option if you've already decided to take a boring origin (i.e. one that doesn't involve specific ethics or trade-offs).

 

[kviiri]

All empires would lose a valuable centre of resource production. Which is hardly a game ender. A hive mind could stand to lose much more, we don't know yet, but it looks like it could be very bad.

Doesn't really matter. Bad vs very bad is a minuscule difference. It might as well make the game say "Game over, sucker" instead of "Game over". Game design should aim for less swingy, not for more swingy.

 

[Eladrin]

Are there any bonuses to doomsday to compensate for the fact that you will inevitably lose what will probably be your most productive planet?

As the catastrophe progresses, extracting resources from your homeworld will become easier. Every giant gaping chasm has a silver lining.

I am looking forward to playing a lot of these. Will there be any events tied to origin? It seems like a strong vein for some story potential.

Many origins have events and event chains associated with them.

One-Planet Galaxy conquest challenge with doomsday origin! Please add achievement for that.

We joked about "Accept Your Fate", where you just waited 64 years but while amusing didn't sound like a lot of fun.

Are Related empires customisable, such as choosing your fallen empire or federation partners?

Not directly, but your empire's makeup will influence them.

The big question is: What happens to lithoid hivemind with Tree of life? The same bonus or maybe some ironwood to harvest minerals?

They have a slightly modified start, but are otherwise still symbiotically linked to the tree of life in the same way. One of the lithoid portraits (rocks on a tree) is perfect for this origin.

Is there a weight to these origins that makes some of them rarer for AI empires than others? To see choosing, say, Shattered Ring would be a lot less interesting if there's a decent chance in a large galaxy that at least one other empire also start on a ring world (and one planet is doomed, and one empire started on habitats, etc...)

Yes. They can also be set to not randomly generate if that origin is already present in the galaxy.

I can imagine this being somewhat fair if the other federation members are, like, right there, such as on planets you could've colonized.

That's exactly where they are. They take up the guaranteed habitable planets that you would have otherwise had (assuming you didn't turn them off). It's an important trade-off for starting in such a strong situation.

Galactic Doorstep is basically refusing to pick anything, a dormant gateway?

I'm Commander Drahpehs and this is my favorite origin in the game.

(Actually, On the Shoulders of Giants is my particular favorite. But having a connection to the greater galaxy waiting for you once you advance far enough in technology is an important sci-fi trope to have represented. Some elements from Contact could arguably also fit into this one.)

I assume vassalls are not prevented from building stations anymore as otherwise a Scion start will be a bit uneventful.

What a subject empire can do varies by vassalization type. Satrapies of the Great Khan, for instance, can expand freely. Scions similarly have a unique subject contract.

Wouldn't it otherwise create a situation where someone with Federations but not Ancient Relics has a homeworld dig site but no access to archaeology?

The Archaeology system itself isn't restricted to Ancient Relics.

"Only" as much science as three trait points worth of bonuses. That's assuming you only get one of Dense Ruins or Central Spire, too; normally you get both of them, so you get +30% science, which is 3x as good as Intelligent. And yes, you lose 6 districts, but even if you start with Broken Spire and need to cough up the (relatively) huge pile of money early on to remove the blocker, +8 scientists is as good as four building slots in the early game.

Finally, don't forget that you presumably turn it into an Ecumenopolis, and that you'll probably still get your Rubricator world. The empire that takes this origin will be swimming in research.

While your homeworld is a relic world and a former Ecumenopolis covered in ruined arcologies, it does not have the same special features as, say, the Rubricator world.

 

[asaz989]

Will you add the Earth cockroaches as a new pre-made species for players? With post-apocalyptic origin?

 

[Promethian]

As the catastrophe progresses, extracting resources from your homeworld will become easier. Every giant gaping chasm has a silver lining.


Many origins have events and event chains associated with them.


We joked about "Accept Your Fate", where you just waited 64 years but while amusing didn't sound like a lot of fun.


Not directly, but your empire's makeup will influence them.


They have a slightly modified start, but are otherwise still symbiotically linked to the tree of life in the same way. One of the lithoid portraits (rocks on a tree) is perfect for this origin.


Yes. They can also be set to not randomly generate if that origin is already present in the galaxy.


That's exactly where they are. They take up the guaranteed habitable planets that you would have otherwise had (assuming you didn't turn them off). It's an important trade-off for starting in such a strong situation.


I'm Commander Drahpehs and this is my favorite origin in the game.

(Actually, On the Shoulders of Giants is my particular favorite. But having a connection to the greater galaxy waiting for you once you advance far enough in technology is an important sci-fi trope to have represented. Some elements from Contact could arguably also fit into this one.)


What a subject empire can do varies by vassalization type. Satrapies of the Great Khan, for instance, can expand freely. Scions similarly have a unique subject contract.


The Archaeology system itself isn't restricted to Ancient Relics.


While your homeworld is a relic world and a former Ecumenopolis covered in ruined arcologies, it does not have the same special features as, say, the Rubricator world.

Would you be so kind as to tell us what the current effects of the Tree of Life saplings and the Calamitous Birth crater and Meteorite Colony ship are?

 

[Olterin]

@Eladrin thank you for the replies! Greatly appreciated. The fact that many origins have events and/or event chains associated with them somewhat allays my concerns... Except the Galactic Doorstep. Mostly. But if it's just that one origin, then I might just live with it and pick it for all custom empires whom I want to start off in the weakest-possible state

Any details on how the Ring World, Habitat and Relic world starts are going to deal with the lack of mineral districts or food districts, respectively?

 

[Abiezer]

Would you be so kind as to tell us what the current effects of the Tree of Life saplings and the Calamitous Birth crater and Meteorite Colony ship are?

As a convinced player of those who keep knocking those rocks together (thanks to Douglas Adams) this would be much appreciated.
As ever though, I don't think there is a great deal of point criticising the DLC until we have seen it in play. One of the things I love about Stellaris is the way that we get a whole new game every so often, in a way that enhances replayability.

Still wanting aquatic races, however