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Eslin

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May 3, 2015
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This is going to include a brief treatise on how morale works for those unfamiliar with Paradox's byzantine and confusing combat system, skip to THE PROBLEMS if you already know or don't care. First off, how morale works is this: Each troop has a certain amount of morale, for instance light infantry have 2 morale, heavy infantry have 4 and war elephants have 15 - when a unit dies their morale is removed and 1 morale damage is taken, a flank begins to retreat when their morale reaches 25%, or to put it another way when they take morale damage equal to 75% of their current morale.

As an example of how this works, archers have 1 morale and morale damage is presently 1 so if you have 1000 archers they will need to take 428.57 casualties (round up, obviously, so really 429) in order to flee - they will now have 571 archers left, who have 571 morale, but will have taken 429 morale damage, leaving them on 142 morale, which is <25% of 571.
I made a formula for it if you want to work it out yourself without having to use trial and error, y-(z+x)=(y-x)/4 where y is the initial army size, x is casualties taken and z is morale damage/unit morale, slot y and z in and you get x. Now, keep in mind archers will probably never have 1 moral since military organisation, retinue bonuses, training grounds, religions and other buildings all give morale bonuses, so the following calculations will assume +50%, equal to level 4 military organisation and a level 2 training grounds - so if it says light cavalry have (3) morale, calculations will assume 4.5.

Unit (morale) % casualties needed to flee before patch > after patch
Archers (1) 15.8% > 53%
Light infantry (2) 27.3% > 69.2%
Light cavalry (3) 36% > 77.1%
Heavy infantry (4) 42.9% > 81.8%
Horse archers (5) 48.4% > 84.9%
Camel cavalry (5) 48.4% > 84.9%
Pikemen (6) 53% > 87.1%
Heavy cavalry (10) 65.2% > 91.8%
War elephants (15) 73.7% > 94.4%

THE PROBLEMS
Problem 1: The morale change from 6 to 1 was too drastic
Before the horse lords patch you took 6 morale damage when you lost a unit, instead you now take 1, this has the effect of making armies flee too late and making higher morale and morale boosts less valuable. I'm not saying it shouldn't have been lowered, just that 1 is too low - if you somehow managed to gather a force of only light infantry, that force would only begin to retreat after 7 out of 10 of them were already dead, which on historical basis is ridiculous unless they were fighting to the death to defend their home city with no possible retreat or something. Most forces will have a mix, so unless you're using a retinue you're unlikely to see the specific numbers above, but most armies will only retreat having taken 70-80% of their number in casualties, which is ridiculous. For heavy cavalry, the nobility can lose 90% of their fellow knights and still be all like 'nah, we got this'. This also has a pretty big gameplay problem - it means high morale values are close to meaningless. It means that no matter how tenaciously your defenders give their lives, the attacks will win if they have even slightly higher numbers or combat values, as opposed to earlier where having a large morale boost could actually swing a battle.

This also has the problem of drastically lowering the values of the skirmish and pursue phases - skirmish was too strongly represented before, but horse archers, light infantry and archers, the only units with any real skirmish capability, were all severely nerfed, skirmish has already been hugely lowered in value - we didn't need morale changes so that even a force that lost half their number to arrows would happily charge into melee anyway. Pursuit is much less valuable now too, considering that while before a unit of heavy infantry would have to attack an enemy several times and take skirmish damage each time in order to destroy a unit (which is fair, it's supposed to be your punishment for not bringing any cavalry to chase them down) this is no longer necessary considering a huge percentage will die in the first battle.

Problem 2: Morale boosts are costed the same as attack and defense boosts, yet are far less useful.
Let's go straight to an example so you see what I mean. Let's assume that there's a Scottish and an Italian republic, both of which have taken their cultural troops, have military organisation level 4, heavy infantry level 4, a level 4 cultural building in their capital (which will require some duchy and capital switching, since it means you need a barony as capital) and an administrative office built. The Scottish troops will have 20% offense, 40% defense and 20% morale as a base while the Italians will have +20%/+20%/+40%, and the cultural buildings will give them an extra 60% to their high stat - so +20/100/20% vs +20/20/100%, adding in the rest of the bonuses we get +50/130/75% vs +50/50/155%. Remember that these units have the same cost, are supposed to be completely equal. Plugging these values into the equation earlier we get the Scottish units retreating at 88.7% casualties and the Italians retreating at 92%, but due to the Scottish having 13.8 defense to the Italians 9, at the point the Italians retreat the Scottish would only have taken 60% casualties. I think it should be pretty obvious which is the better choice here - taking 1/3 less damage is not equal to fleeing very slightly earlier.

THE SOLUTIONS
Solution 1: Increase the amount of morale damage taken, add circumstantial morale boosts.
The units here are medieval humans, not Space Marines. They should not uniformly wait until most of their comrades are dead before deciding to flee, regardless of context. By all means, increase the amount of morale they have based on circumstance - are they defending their homeland, on a holy crusade, being lead by their king, in a situation with no possible retreat? Give them extra morale! I'm not averse to units fleeing only when they're almost completely wiped out, but they should need a reason - random peasants levied to fight in a war they've never heard of should not need to almost be obliterated before they decide to flee, and that morale works like that at present makes the skirmish and pursuit phases even less relevant and means that one battle decides a war.

Solution 2: Change how morale works. Make it less binary, reboot the whole system.
As it is, morale still doesn't work properly even if you implement the above solution. So long as it is treated as having the same value as defense and attack, it will never be as good - 100% more attack or defense means you kill twice as many units or take half as much damage, which is always going to be better than 100% more morale even if 100% more morale made you stay in battle twice as long. Compare it to defense - at its best, doubling morale would basically let you pretend you hadn't lost half the units you've lost, while doubling defense would means you actually hadn't lost those units, putting the defense army and the morale army in the exact same spot except that the defense army would have twice the attack because it has twice as many units left.

Now, there are two ways to deal with that - either do a complicated mathematical rebalancing of every individual morale bonus (which Paradox has shown time and time again it is incapable of doing, Paradox balances by throwing darts at a dart board and writing down what happens) or change morale to work a different way, hopefully a less binary one. At present, morale has absolutely no use if you won the fight - your units get to a point where they flee, or they don't. If you were never near fleeing in the first place, morale did absolutely nothing for you, another of the reasons it's less good than offense or defense. Now, I don't know what the solution would be - I don't make games, I don't know anything about maths more complicated than basic algebra, but I'm not the one who makes the game and wants others to pay for it.

Solution 3: If you aren't going to come up with an interesting use for morale, just turn it back to 6 morale damage taken and halve the value of morale increases.
Since I constantly see Paradox take the lazy way out, this is a lazy way out which would balance the game better than it is presently balanced. Take morale damage back to 6, and halve the value of morale boosts - make a 20% morale boost equal to a 10% defense boost, instead of 10% being equal for both. The way you've set morale up means it's significantly less useful than attack of defense, so please stop valuing it at the same price.



AN END NOTE FOR PARADOX

Please, please, please stop being so arbitrary with your balancing. Archers were too good for their cost, so you made them literally one fifth as effective and changed morale so the skirmish phase was a lot less relevant. They were too good, so you swung way too far in the other direction and made them useless. It's been ages since the retinue rebalance and pointless imbalances still exist - the Dutch have a part light infantry part pikemen retinue which is far worse than just having pikemen, several groups like the Lombards and the Russians have pure heavy infantry retinues but Lombards have +10% heavy infantry offense and +10% heavy infantry morale while the Russians have +10% offense, +50% defense and +20% morale and the Ethiopians have a pure light infantry retinue while you've absolutely gutted light infantry. What I dread is you looking at this thread and going 'hmm, everything seems fine except that the Scottish are better than the Italians, better halve pikemen defense' - this stuff is basic mathematics, you're programmers there is no way you don't know how this kind of thing works. On the previously mentioned retinue stuff - give every culture 100% of one type of unit as a retinue and standardise bonuses to 60 or 80%, with morale being counted as half as good as attack of defense (so +40% morale counts as +20%).
 
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Nice read. I actually had no idea how morale worked before this. One question (which I really hope you don't take the wrong way):

Why the edgy tone? Why not be friendly and non-confrontational while discussing/criticizing what's obviously one of your favourite games with its developers?
 
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Yes. Nice analysis, but why do you have to constantly throw in little jabs at Paradox? Just let your nicely reasoned post speak for yourself, and we will draw our own conclusions.
 
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Nice read. I actually had no idea how morale worked before this. One question (which I really hope you don't take the wrong way):

Why the edgy tone? Why not be friendly and non-confrontational while discussing/criticizing what's obviously one of your favourite games with its developers?

Yes. Nice analysis, but why do you have to constantly throw in little jabs at Paradox? Just let your nicely reasoned post speak for yourself, and we will draw our own conclusions.

Because all this is stuff that's been in the game for ages and would take maybe an hour and a half of editing numbers to fix. We keep getting arbitrary overcompensations for things and I'm sick of it, especially when it would take a minimal amount of effort to come up with a better solution. There are dumb things that I don't get angry at Paradox for - they've put in straits between places like Italy and Greece which make no sense, but they're a compensation for bad AI which sounds like an incredibly complicated task, so the only thing doable is point out that the straits don't make sense and hope Paradox improves the AI use of transport so the straits become unnecessary, I can't just say 'goddamnit Paradox this is stupid, make the AI better' because 'making the AI better' is a solution vastly more complicated than it sounds.

However, stuff like 'Lombards get +10/0/10% and Russians get +10/50/20%, this is arbitrary and unbalanced now fix this' is perfectly reasonable, since they're just numbers that take as long to tweak as it took me to write this sentence. So saying things like Paradox has shown itself time and time again to be incapable of properly fine tuning numbers is perfectly correct in light of the above example - there is absolutely no reason why identical troops should get such wildly disparate bonuses, it would take 20 seconds to fix, yet it's still in the game.




Edit: Seriously, 20 seconds to fix it. Go to retinue_subunits, see this:
RETTYPE_CUL_LOM =
{
first_type = 1
first_amount = 300

potential = {
is_nomadic = no
culture = lombard
}

modifier = {
heavy_infantry_offensive = 0.1
heavy_infantry_morale = 0.1
}
And change the values to sum up to 0.8, morale counting as half.

Thinking on it a bit further, it should actually sum up to an 80% increase in total - heavy infantry have 6 offense and 4 defense, so for them an offensive boost is worth 50% more. The proper way to balance retinues would be for all changes to sum up to an 40% total increase in attack and defense (attack+defense totals to 10 in HI, so increase to 14 - a 100% increase in defense, 66% increase in offense, a 50% increase in defense plus a 33% increase in offense, etc, with morale again counting as half as valuable. Less simple mathematics, and for balance you'd need to divide over skirmish and melee (and count pursuit as maybe 1/4 as valuable because it really isn't valuable), but would still take maybe an hour with a decent spreadsheet to do every single retinue and would improve balance quite a bit. Since heavy infantry need defense in skirmish but don't need attack, defense and offense probably would total to about even, but for instance archers don't really care about defense so +40% archer offense and +40% archer defense would be much worse than +80% archer offense.

Edit: Not sure about the above. Attack and defense are relative, doubling your defense halves your casualties whether your initial defense is 2 or 20, so it may be that attack and defense are equally valuable no matter what.
 
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I don't have any problem at all with some retinues being better. If the Italian and Scottish Pikes have real world differences in quality, that should be reflected in game. If one of them is significantly better trained and or wearing heavier armor, that should also be reflected in their cost, not just their stats.

Cost is often overlooked in these complaints. Values shouldn't simply be normalized for the sake of balance. Regardless, there's no reason to have everything perfectly equal, there is no argument to justify such a need for balance. You can't make multiplayer balanced with it, where one starts has a multitude of balance factors with far more weight than what their cultural retinue is, and none of them can possibly be equalized without ruining the game.

The morale change is pretty brutal though... A historical and bad for the game play both...
 
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I don't have any problem at all with some retinues being better. If the Italian and Scottish Pikes have real world differences in quality, that should be reflected in game. If one of them is significantly better trained and or wearing heavier armor, that should also be reflected in their cost, not just their stats.

Cost is often overlooked in these complaints. Values shouldn't simply be normalized for the sake of balance. Regardless, there's no reason to have everything perfectly equal, there is no argument to justify such a need for balance. You can't make multiplayer balanced with it, where one starts has a multitude of balance factors with far more weight than what their cultural retinue is, and none of them can possibly be equalized without ruining the game.

The morale change is pretty brutal though... A historical and bad for the game play both...
That difference in quality should be reflected in technology, not base values. If in this game the Baltic has become a rich powerhouse of influence and learning there is no reason their heavy infantry has to be 40% worse than the Russians just to the east. Cost is not being overlooked - pikemen are a better retinue than heavy infantry not because they're better on an individual basis, but because their stats are close to identical while heavy infantry cost 50% more. And in the other similar area, cultural buildings, all bonuses total up to 60% - why should retinues not do the same.

Multiplayer balance wise, you talk of a multitude of balance factors but you can't seriously pretend that making each cultural retinue about as good as each other cultural retinue can have a bad effect on it. At best it improves balance, at worst nothing changes, either way it's quick change to make.
 
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That difference in quality should be reflected in technology, not base values. If in this game the Baltic has become a rich powerhouse of influence and learning there is no reason their heavy infantry has to be 40% worse than the Russians just to the east. Cost is not being overlooked - pikemen are a better retinue than heavy infantry not because they're better on an individual basis, but because their stats are close to identical while heavy infantry cost 50% more. And in the other similar area, cultural buildings, all bonuses total up to 60% - why should retinues not do the same.

You are mixing two different things, the balance of pikemen versus heavy infantry isn't a problem for cultural retinues, cost is being ignored. Pikemen are not some uniform version of pikemen, they're particularly equipped with pikes, or perhaps even just pole arms in general, but cultural retinues are named so because they are specific to that culture. It's not a technology factor if one culture puts heavier armor on their pikes than others do. It's not a technology factor if one culture has their pikes train more often than others do. The English longbow wasn't spectacular because of the bow, it was spectacular because of the culture centered around archery as the only sport. Anyone could have fielded similar archer units, but they wouldn't have been able to field large numbers of men strong enough to frequently draw a bow of that strength for an extended duration, and skilled enough to hit where they were aiming.

The cost of pikemen should be varied between cultures that fielded different quality troops, instead of normalizing them for the sake of some perceived slight to balance. The life of the common soldier was not the primary concern, the goal was to win battles.

Multiplayer balance wise, you talk of a multitude of balance factors but you can't seriously pretend that making each cultural retinue about as good as each other cultural retinue can have a bad effect on it. At best it improves balance, at worst nothing changes, either way it's quick change to make.

The balance of one retinue unit to another is irrelevant, thus our historically driven game should follow history when possible, instead of aiming for uniformity to promote a balance that can never be achieved. If this game were otherwise balanced, then yes, it would be terrible to completely ruin it with something so simply adjusted as cultural retinue modifiers, but you can't even pick two one county independent characters from the same culture and manage a balanced start irrespective of your retinue. Even if your characters had identical stats and were both married to identical stat partners, your courtier selection would still ruin the day all by itself.

There's about as much point to changing the cultural retinues for the sake of balance as there is changing the splash screen art for the sake of balance. I'd still like to change it, but I'd like to aim for more historically accurate and adjust costs to fit the real life impact fielding those better units would have made.
 
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6 to 1 morale damage on death makes morale almost useless and, as you point out, extends the melee phase, making the skirmish and pursuit phases mostly irrelevant.

6 to 4 morale damage might make sense. IMO there should be a mix of troops with more morale points than the morale damage and less than. 4 seems to get there nicely.

Archers were nerfed very hard, but IMO they could be restored to minor relevance with a "1" retinue cost (to reflect their post-nerf combat value, instead of their pre-nerf combat value, which is no longer part of the game) and a "2" skirmish defense (melee weakness fine). They could also use some love with more melee tactics that incorporate archers (as could light infantry), especially the extremely common tactic "Force Back" (which actually lowers damage of archers currently), which could instead boost archer defense. All the Stand Fast tactics could incorporate archers IMO, not just a few like currently (it makes sense to shoot at them while 'waiting' for them). And Barrage tactic needs to be better, since it's based on melee combat values (the "1" of archers).
 
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It would be nice if you made a mini mod fixing morale issues, I'd definitely play with it.
The problem is that it wouldn't be a "mini"-mod, people that go through and rebalance unit stats have to spend hours testing balance to make sure that the outcomes make sense.
 
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The problem is that it wouldn't be a "mini"-mod, people that go through and rebalance unit stats have to spend hours testing balance to make sure that the outcomes make sense.
not to mention any mod the modifies the troop stat balance modifies the defines.lua, which makes it incompatible with most other mods too
but more specifically to combat balance, the best approach really would be to rebalance not just individual unit statistics but also the entire tactics system, which affect combat very significantly. And such an endeavour is rife with unintended circumstances (in my currently frozen mod, some seemingly "balanced" tactics could result in thousands of casualties in a single day for example)
 
not to mention any mod the modifies the troop stat balance modifies the defines.lua, which makes it incompatible with most other mods too
but more specifically to combat balance, the best approach really would be to rebalance not just individual unit statistics but also the entire tactics system, which affect combat very significantly. And such an endeavour is rife with unintended circumstances (in my currently frozen mod, some seemingly "balanced" tactics could result in thousands of casualties in a single day for example)
I had your mod in mind, actually, I was quite looking forward to the next iteration of it.
 
I had your mod in mind, actually, I was quite looking forward to the next iteration of it.
sadly, I can't work on it yet (or any mod for that matter) for a number of months due to RL reasons. still, I guess it's good to at least know some have heard of it at least
 
Maybe morale could be tied to tactics, so that having a high numerical morale would make you more likely to roll the better tactics? Basically, as the troops loose morale, it becomes harder to organize them into effective tactics, while units with higher morale are more organized deeper into the battle. That would provide a solid benefit to having high morale.
 
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I agree with Jorlem; One possible use for Morale is giving it an influence on what Tactics are available and also potentially the quality of those tactics. Make it so that the lower a Units Morale, the more likely it is to wind up with one of the Bad Tactics. This could make Morale Boosts super useful when paired with a good general, which sounds realistic to me. +100% Morale means you have twice as long of a period in the battle during which you can execute your Super Culture Specific Tactics and means you'll be able to fight for far longer before you start seeing things like "Reckless Charge" show up.

It would also make Morale basically a double hitter as far as simulations go, in that it now also kinda sorta simulates Exhaustion. As the battle goes on, Units lose their cohesion, the become exhausted, and they lose their ferocity, simulated by being less likely, or outright prohibited, from enacting some of the awesome tactics and being far more likely to use a poor tactic. The start of a Battle might have all this fancy maneuvering, but eventually it will devolve into a brawl.

In addition, this could help Paradox finally figure out how to program an AI that can understand when to intentionally Retreat, because it provides two definite points in the battle where their morale gets low enough that first good things stop happening, and then bad things start happening to force Retreat Checks, and provide strong modifiers to those checks.
 
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