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LePadeaux

Alderman
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Mar 4, 2014
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I've been working on trying to make a more accurate map of the cultures of EU4 over the past few months, and with more map changes coming sometime soon I've decided to throw this out here before I have to redo it as a suggestion for Paradox. The entirety of the old world has been completed and I've only manged to get my hands on improving Mayan in the new world. Some cultures have changed very little, with only name change, and some not at all, such as Cushitic.

What I'd like most is to hear suggestions from you guys about what should be changed and how wrong I was to put culture X in place Y. I would love for anyone to point me to any sources for around the time period of EU4 since the vast majority of sources I can get my hands on are from contemporary times.

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World Map Link

Culture Group (Replaced Culture Groups)
-Culture (Replaced Cultures)

Iberian Map
-Portugese
-Galician
-Leonese
-Castilian
-Basque
-Aragonese
-Catalan
French Map
-French (Cosmopolitaine)
-Occitan (Occitain)
-Arpitan
Celtic Map
-Irish
-Welsh
-Cornish
-Breton
British Map
-English
-Scottish/Scots
German (Germanic) Map
-Bavarian (Austrian)
-Alemannic
-Franconian
-Thuringian/High Saxon (Saxon)
-Rhenish/Rhinelandic (Rheinlaender/Hessian)
-Dutch (Flemish)
-Frisian
-Saxon/Low Saxon (Hannoverian)
-Markish
-Pomeranian
-Prussian
Nordic (Scandinavian) Map
-Gutnish
-Danish
-Swedish
-Norwegian
-Icelandic
Italian Map
-Dalmatian
-Venetian
-Lombard
-Tuscan
-Umbrian
-Neapolitan
-Sicilian
-Sardinian
West Slavic Map
-Polish
-Slovak
-Czech
-Silesian (Schlesian)
-Sorbian
South Slavic Map
-Slovene/Slovenian
-Croatian
-Bosnian
-Serbian
-Bulgarian
Carpathian Map
-Hungarian
-Romanian
Baltic Map
-Lithuanian
-Latvian
East Slavic Map
-Russian
-Ruthenian
Uralic Map
-Sami
-Karelian
-Finnish
-Ingrian
-Estonian
-Mordvin
-Komi (Uralic)
-Yurik (Samoyed)
-Ostyak
Caucasian Map
-Armenian
-Georgian
-Dagestani
-Ciscassian
Hellenic (Byzantine) Map
-Albanian
-Greek
-Gothic
Arabic Map
-Iraqi
-Bedouin
-Levantine
-Egyptian
Sudanese Map
-Nubi
-Dinka
-Kordofan
-Fur
-Daju
Cushitic Map
-Tigray
-Amhara
-Sidamo
-Somali
Maghrebi Map
-Hassaniyya
-Andalusian
-Morroccan
-Algerian
-Tunisian
-Maltese
Oghuz Map
-Turkish
-Azerbaijani
-Turkmen
Kipchak (Tartar) Map
-Crimean
-Tartar
-Bashkir
-Nogai
-Kazakh
-Kyrgyz
-Siberian
Karluk Map
-Uzbek
-Uyghur
Iranian Map
-Kurdish
-Mazanderani
-Persian
-Afgani
-Balochi
Mongolic (Altaic) Map
-Mongol
-Oirat
-Buryat
Tungusic Map
-Yukaghir
-Evenks (Tungus)
-Yakut
-Manchu
Kamchadal (Kamchatkan) Map
-Ainu
-Koryak (Kamchatkan)
Japanese
-Japanese
Korean
-Korean
Chinese Map
-Jin
-Han (Hubei/Jianghuai/Shandong/Sichuanese/Xibei/Zhili/Zhongyuan)
-Xiang
-Gan
-Wu
-Min
-Hakka
-Yue (Cantonese)
Burman Map
-Tibetan
-Yi
-Bai
-Kachin
-Chin
-Burmese
-Karen
Western Aryan Map
-Sindhi
-Punjabi (Panjabi)
-Dardu/Kashmiri
Northern Aryan Map
-Nepali
-Pahari
Eastern Aryan Map
-Bengali
-Asamiya (Assamese)
-Bihari
-Oriya
Southern Aryan Map
-Marathi
-Sinhala
Central Aryan/Hindustani Map
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Dravidian Map
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Austroasiatic Map
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Tai (Thai) Map
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Austronesian Map
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Australian Map
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Berber Map
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Chadic (Sahelian) Map
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Senegambian Map
-Wolof (Senegambian)
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Songhai Map
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Mande Map
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Nigerian (West African) Map
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Bantu Map
-Fang
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-Tsonga
-Nguni
-Sotho
Khoisan Map
-Khoikhoi

Mayan Map
-Yucatec
-Tzeltal (Putun)
-Quichean (Highland Mayan)
 
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Bosnian didn't exist back then. Some will say it was Serbian and some will say it was Croat. Either way, it wasn't separate. And Albania being Hellenic? How so? Hungarians and Romanians in same culture group? I think that is not accurate. Besides, adding new cultures shouldn't be done untill they rework culture conversion. This way everything would just get converted.
 
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"Some will say it was Serbian and some will say it was Croat."

This.

So much of "culture" could be thought of as opinions anyway. There is nothing tangible you can put your hands on to say that a certain piece of land should be identified with one "culture" over another. What I try to do is remember it is a game and enjoy it as such. When I see specific countries or cultures appear that catch my interest, I research those online and read books to learn true history.

These same discussions (wrong cultures) were being started on the CK2 forum several months ago, and I assume still are. That's why I quit reading the forums over there and just play the game. And as long as it's fun to me I will keep playing. When it stops being fun I will move on to something else.
 
Regarding Italy, I think your job was wonderful. I'm surprised you are not Italian yourself.

I'm not sure about the will of the dev regarding adding new cultures, but if they do they should consider your proposals imo.
 
Few comments regarding Ugric and Baltic:
Dorpat should be definitely Estonian.
Livland is sort of borderline case, my personal guess would be making it Estonian but its not clear cut case, you can compare how that province would be divided by modern Estonia-Latvia border.

Maybe there should be also some Old-Prussian presence in East-Prussia, although its pretty hard to say as I don't think there is much clear information about their presence 1444 compared to Germans and germanized locals in region. Maybe someone else can comment on that.
 
Israelite culture in New York or riot, 1444 is before the Native Americans killed the 13th tribe of Israel o_O

Although as a serious point, what is the point of culture in uncolonized land? I know it shows up in the Culture Map Mode but does it have a function?
 
In my opinion there should be a separate Ryukyuan culture but still within the Japanese culture group.
 
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Bosnian didn't exist back then. Some will say it was Serbian and some will say it was Croat. Either way, it wasn't separate. And Albania being Hellenic? How so? Hungarians and Romanians in same culture group? I think that is not accurate. Besides, adding new cultures shouldn't be done untill they rework culture conversion. This way everything would just get converted.

Yeah, us Albanians don't fit with either Hellenic or South Slavic culture groups, but in the spirit of the EU4 game mechanics, it's more South Slavic.
 
There should not be Celtic group, multiple times I've heard that Celtic wasn't even concept before 19th century and that instead it should be Gaelic group that includes Irish and Scottish, while Welsh, Cornish and Breton should be in Brythonic group.

It is ridiculous that Finland (province) has Swedish culture there is nothing that can justify it, also Västerbotten, Hälsingland and Jämtland should be Sami.

And please if you are not going to include Hungarians do not call it Uralic, call it Finnic.
 
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Hoping on some new provinces in Ireland/GB.

We'd have Manx in the Isle of Mann; Anglo-Irish in the Pale (Dublin) and Hiberno-Norman across central to mid southern Ireland.

Chlodio; In the interest of ahistorical plausibility one would like a Celtic Union. Historically, Welsh principalities and Irish petty kingdoms intermarried. It's not much of a stretch. The Normans ended up in Ireland due to a King of Leinster going over to Wales with the begging bowl to their recent Norman conquerers. Quite a substantial number of Welshmen followed the Normans over here. It's believed that the surname Walsh comes from their descendants.

Manx, Irish and Scottish are all part of the same language group. Breton, Welsh and Cornish all occupy a sister group. What about in 1444, was Cumbrian still around? Had English displaced all Celtic languages in England proper?
 
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There should be a West Slavic culture called Kashubian (Slavic Pomeranian) in Danzig and Stolp. Throughout most of the period even nobility was Slavic-speaking over there.
 
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Hoping on some new provinces in Ireland/GB.

We'd have Manx in the Isle of Mann; Anglo-Irish in the Pale (Dublin) and Anglo-Norman across central to mid southern Ireland.

Chlodio; In the interest of ahistorical plausibility one would like a Celtic Union. Historically, Welsh principalities and Irish petty kingdoms intermarried. It's not much of a stretch. The Normans ended up in Ireland due to a King of Leinster going over to Wales with the begging bowl to their recent Norman conquerers. Quite a substantial number of Welshmen followed the Normans over here. It's believed that the surname Walsh comes from their descendants.

Manx, Irish and Scottish are all part of the same language group. Breton, Welsh and Cornish all occupy a sister group. What about in 1444, was Cumbrian still around? Had English displaced all Celtic languages in England proper?

I think Celtic Union is a bad idea and no justification for Celtic group. I'm not sure but I believe Cumbrians were gone before 13th century.
 
While Gutnish has a strong argument for the time period (as it's a culture as old as Swedish), Icelandic was still not clearly separate from Norwegian. I've gone on about this in previous threads, but I'll do it again: while Norwegian and Icelandic had been growing distinct for a long time, having a common crown, cultural background, and language kept them too similar to reasonably split in EU4 terms.

Now, I'm not saying Norwegian is older than Icelandic. At the EU4 start date, Norwegian was Icelandic. In EU4 terms, Norway was gradually culture-converted to Danish, with the southeast (Akershus, Eidsiva, Agder) becoming Danish, and the rest of Norway becoming a sort of Dano-Norwegian melting pot, with Iceland retaining its old culture since it was hard for the Danes to administer. In 1444, Norway still spoke Old Norse, which is much more closely related to modern Icelandic than both middle Danish and modern Danish and Norwegian. They still had their quasi-democratic customs and no centralised power. In short, they were still very much Norsemen, and the Norwegians as they exist today (formed by a 400-year period of Danish suzerainty causing the nobility to adopt Danish customs) did not exist.

The start of the erosion of Old West Norse culture can be traced back to the Black Death. Yes, that was significantly before 1444, but it was a slow process. While very few literate people were left in Norway after the plague, the ones that did wrote Old Norse, not Middle Danish (read: Norwegian-to-be), albeit with poor grasp of grammar (note that Old Norse and Icelandic had cases, while modern Scandinavian languages do not).

'But they referred to themselves as Icelanders!' is not a strong counter-argument; by the same token, Scania should be Scanian, Jutland should be Jutlander, and every goddamn province in Norway should have its own culture in 1444.
 
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Indeed, it is debatable if Bosnian culture was distinct enough in the Middle Ages. If we accept that Bogumilism (Krstjani), which was considered heresy, is proof of a separate culture, it is problematic because they only made a small part of Bosnian population.

It is not wrong, per se, to add Bosnian culture, as some arguments can be made for it, but it definitely wrong to make all provinces in Bosnia have Bosnian culture.
Two southern province should definitely have Serbian culture and the north western one should be Croatian, as that population was dominant in those areas.

But as I argued before, I believe the best solution would be to simply lump all Serbs, Croats and Bosnians into a single group, with different religion, as the difference back then was indeed too small to have three distinct culture. That's from the historical point of view. Would it also be good for game play, I can't really say, but it would be the closest to reality.
 
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I don't want to get into the muddle of Balkan nationalism but shouldn't there be a Yugoslavian Cultural Union?

Scottish culture should also be broken into Highlander and Lowlander. The latter accepted under the British Cultural Union.

I hope Paradox can add a more flexible Cultural Union system. Perhaps there could be a system to get cultures accepted under one's Union; ie. Breton for France or Cornish/Welsh/Irish for the UK; unlike the current culture conversion.
 
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Pontic should be it's own culture due to the differences that emerged in the aftermath of separation from mainland Greece and I'm pretty sure Albanian belongs in the South Slavic group from a cultural standpoint.
 
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Pontic should be it's own culture due to the differences that emerged in the aftermath of separation from mainland Greece and I'm pretty sure Albanian belongs in the South Slavic group from both a linguistic and cultural standpoint.

Linguistically, no more so than Hungarian. Culturally, yes.

Altaic/Tartar/Oghuz/Karluk should be just one culture group.

Remember how OP Altaic was?

Let's not.
 
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