Map Suggestion: An Argument for a Landlocked Montenegro

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Em Ay Ef

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With the map changes coming up in 1.19, now might be a good time to do Montenegro justice a little bit. Namely, to represent it as the landlocked country it truly was.

Throughout the game period, the partly tribal, partly theocratic principality of Montenegro was limited to the mountainous hinterland--the so-called Upper Zeta. The sea was likely visible from the hilltops, but it wasn't accessible, as the littoral was firmly in Venetian and Ottoman hands until 1797. After Serbia's last maritime possessions were lost in the 15th century, it wasn't until the late 19th century that Montenegrin control would encompass a significant stretch of the coast.

Montenegro_territory_expanded_%281830-1944%29.png

479px-Venezia_Montenegro.svg.png


To reflect this in-game, I suggest the removal from Zeta of a narrow coastal strip roughly the same width as Dubrovnik province. Montenegro would thus be separated from the Adriatic, and the new land in between could take on any of the following roles:
  • Optimally, it could become a new province, Kotor (Càttaro), historically held by Venice from 1444 to 1797 and afterwards by the same owner as Dalmatia (Napoleonic Italy, France, Habsburg Empire).
    9ZT27PC.jpg
  • Alternatively it could become part of the neighboring province of the Albanian area, be it Lezhë or Durazzo (Johan's screenshot seems to suggest it's the former).
    sOhqc8u.jpg
  • Or, its western part could be merged with Dalmatia (as Càttaro was generally governed together with that province), while the east could become part of Durazzo/Lezhë. The Dalmatian exclave might even be separated by a small wasteland, signifying the reclusiveness of the Bay of Kotor, surrounded by steep cliffs on all sides with only two roads leaving the area (this would also prevent weird army movement through Dalmatia); in this case, Dalmatia's sea zone should be extended to Kotor.
    6Tjlxxe.jpg
    sLcnF88.jpg
  • ETA: A simpler variant of the above. Instead of treating Kotor as an exclave of Dalmatia, we can just ignore its ownership by Venice and pretend that the city, located on the western edge of the province, belonged to Ragusa. The eastern half of the proposed Kotor province became part of the Ottoman Sanjak of Shkodra in the 16th century, so bundling it with Albania--which frequently gets conquered by the Ottos--isn't entirely ahistorical.
    gt5lr6G.jpg
Out of these three (ETA: four) ways, the cleanest one seems to be the creation of a new province. As this area remained strictly Venetian until 1797 (albeit with some exceptions in the east, where land was conquered by the Ottomans), such a solution would be historically correct. Hopefully it would also be sound gameplay-wise.

It would definitely affect playing as Montenegro, perhaps helping to convey this tag's delicate balance between Venetian and Ottoman overlordship (after all the principality only turned to Russia when Venice lost its potential to challenge the sultans).

In terms of the new area-based fort system, I believe such a province should be included in the Albanian area. The Serbian one seems to be already full with 6 provinces (although perhaps it could be now split in two), while Albania only has 3 and probably could accomodate one more. It is noteworthy that even the Venetians themselves used the name "Albania Veneta" for their possessions around Kotor.

One remaining thing are Montenegro's national ideas, two of which deal with naval issues. Maybe they don't need any changing, since they provide a nice incentive to develop towards the sea--an incentive that was shared by the real-life Montenegro. However, the famous pirates from Ulcinj, which I reckon became the reason behind Montenegro's privateering idea, were in fact only introduced to the area with the Ottoman conquest of parts of Albania Veneta. They were not Montenegrins but rather Berber sailors in Ottoman service. In this case, perhaps the Balkan Gusars idea will be better off with just the embargo efficiency modifier and no effect on privateers.

Hopefully all of this was helpful.
 
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Do we really need another unclickable province in that neck of the woods, though?
 
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I would prefer it just be kotor because it provides an easier opportunity along with the new Albanian province for Venice to form a ring around that part of the adriatic while not bothering with the interior rather than conquering the entire province of Montenegro, and it doesn't seem like such a huge imposition with a bunch of new provinces coming up. It's a long province even if it's narrow so it should be easier to click than Frankfurt.
 
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Yes, no , no. Kotor can be only a new province, because of culture. It has to be Serbian. And if you make it as part of Lezhe or Durazzo it will be Albanian, and that will be nonsense.
 
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With the map changes coming up in 1.19, now might be a good time to do Montenegro justice a little bit. Namely, to represent it as the landlocked country it truly was.

Throughout the game period, the partly tribal, partly theocratic principality of Montenegro was limited to the mountainous hinterland--the so-called Upper Zeta. The sea was likely visible from the hilltops, but it wasn't accessible, as the littoral was firmly in Venetian and Ottoman hands until 1797. After Serbia's last maritime possessions were lost in the 15th century, it wasn't until the late 19th century that Montenegrin control would encompass a significant stretch of the coast.

Montenegro_territory_expanded_%281830-1944%29.png

479px-Venezia_Montenegro.svg.png


To reflect this in-game, I suggest the removal from Zeta of a narrow coastal strip roughly the same width as Dubrovnik province. Montenegro would thus be separated from the Adriatic, and the new land in between could take on any of the following roles:
  • Optimally, it could become a new province, Kotor (Càttaro), historically held by Venice from 1444 to 1797 and afterwards by the same owner as Dalmatia (Napoleonic Italy, France, Habsburg Empire).
    9ZT27PC.jpg
  • Alternatively it could become part of the neighboring province of the Albanian area, be it Lezhë or Durazzo (Johan's screenshot seems to suggest it's the former).
    sOhqc8u.jpg
  • Or, its western part could be merged with Dalmatia (as Càttaro was generally governed together with that province), while the east could become part of Durazzo/Lezhë. The Dalmatian exclave might even be separated by a small wasteland, signifying the reclusiveness of the Bay of Kotor, surrounded by steep cliffs on all sides with only two roads leaving the area (this would also prevent weird army movement through Dalmatia); in this case, Dalmatia's sea zone should be extended to Kotor.
    6Tjlxxe.jpg
    sLcnF88.jpg
Out of these three ways, the cleanest one seems to be the creation of a new province. As this area remained strictly Venetian until 1797 (albeit with some exceptions in the east, where land was conquered by the Ottomans), such a solution would be historically correct. Hopefully it would also be sound gameplay-wise.

It would definitely affect playing as Montenegro, perhaps helping to convey this tag's delicate balance between Venetian and Ottoman overlordship (after all the principality only turned to Russia when Venice lost its potential to challenge the sultans).

In terms of the new area-based fort system, I believe such a province should be included in the Albanian area. The Serbian one seems to be already full with 6 provinces (although perhaps it could be now split in two), while Albania only has 3 and probably could accomodate one more. It is noteworthy that even the Venetians themselves used the name "Albania Veneta" for their possessions around Kotor.

One remaining thing are Montenegro's national ideas, two of which deal with naval issues. Maybe they don't need any changing, since they provide a nice incentive to develop towards the sea--an incentive that was shared by the real-life Montenegro. However, the famous pirates from Ulcinj, which I reckon became the reason behind Montenegro's privateering idea, were in fact only introduced to the area with the Ottoman conquest of parts of Albania Veneta. They were not Montenegrins but rather Berber sailors in Ottoman service. In this case, perhaps the Balkan Gusars idea will be better off with just the embargo efficiency modifier and no effect on privateers.

Hopefully all of this was helpful.
100% agree with you and I suggested this before but PDX haven't listened as of yet :(
Definitely no reason to give anything to Albania though, the complete coast should be given to Venice with Serbia keeping the rest of the province

Reworking the Balkans
 
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Definitely no reason to give anything to Albania though, the complete coast should be given to Venice with Serbia keeping the rest of the province
Frankly, I prioritized landlocking Zeta over representing the Venetian possessions in the area. Of course the ideal solution is in my point of view the creation of a Kotor province, but if a new province is out of the question, I could live with Kotor's territory simply removed from Zeta and attached to another province--be it Lezhë, Dalmatia, Ragusa or a combination of these.
 
Another solution comes to mind. If the priority is to axe the coast of Zeta, but at the same time for some reason a new Kotor province isn't welcome, then the conundrum could be elegantly solved by the assignment of the northwestern part of Kotor to Dubrovnik (ignoring its historical association with Venice), while the southeast, which historically was controlled by the Ottos (once they conquered the lands around Shkodër), could remain part of Lezhë.

gt5lr6G.jpg


I'll edit it into the OP.
 
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I like the idea of giving it to Venice. I feel like the game doesn't do exact justice to just how powerful Venice was, another province would be a pretty meaningful buff.

Serbia doesn't really need access to the sea. AI or a player is never going to contest naval supremacy with the Ottomans or the Venetians early game, and if they want access to the sea they can get it through Albania.
 
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I'm all for a separate Cattaro/Kotor province.
Do we really need another unclickable province in that neck of the woods, though?
A separate Cattaro/Kotor would actually be the similar size as Ragusa, which apparently is fine.
 
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So, if somehow Zeta gets split up, I think that Kotor should be in Adriatic area as small coastal Venician province. And produce fish. Also have small development (maybe 2,1,1 or eventually 2,2,1).
And Zeta should stay in Serbia as mountain province, but produce wool because it was and it is still today mostly region of livestock breeding. Development maybe minimum, maybe 2,1,1.
And also capital of Zeta is misplaced, in Montenegro there are several places called Zabljak, and the real capital was fortress on Skadar lake like on this map near the Adriatic sea. Its not so important but still it is worth to say.
261px-Zabljak_Crnojevica_pozicija.svg.png

But I would change it to Cetinje. It was not capital at the 1444 but it was changed few years latter and stayed capital until ww1.
 
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So, if somehow Zeta gets split up, I think that Kotor should be in Adriatic area as small coastal Venician province. And produce fish. Also have small development (maybe 2,1,1 or eventually 2,2,1).
And Zeta should stay in Serbia as mountain province, but produce wool because it was and it is still today mostly region of livestock breeding. Development maybe minimum, maybe 2,1,1.
And also capital of Zeta is misplaced, in Montenegro there are several places called Zabljak, and the real capital was fortress on Skadar lake like on this map near the Adriatic sea. Its not so important but still it is worth to say.
View attachment 216605
But I would change it to Cetinje. It was not capital at the 1444 but it was changed few years latter and stayed capital until ww1.
I concur.

Kotor (Italian flavor: Cattaro; in Venetian: Càtaro)
capital: Kotor (Cattaro, Càtaro) on the western edge of the province, in the bight (see first map in thread)
terrain: either coastal or mountains
development: 2, 1, 1, maybe 2, 2, 1
culture: Serbian
religion: Orthodox

Zeta
capital: Cetinje (see map) (it was only founded in the late 15th century, but the previous seats of power after the loss of Shkodra were rather castles than municipalities)
terrain: mountains
development: 1, 1, 1, maybe 2, 1, 1
culture: Serbian
religion: Orthodox
 
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