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heliostellar

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Dec 29, 2005
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I stepped away from EU4 for a while. I remember the last time I was playing, I was irritated that the new Ming mechanics made it such that everyone east of Tims were tributaries of Ming.

Is this still the case? Any strategic advice?
 
join the flock, eat the flock, surround the hen, eat the hen
 
Yes.
Advice:
1. Become a tributary.
2. Eat other tributaries.
3. Take down the Ming.
4. Rule the Central Kingdom from the dragon throne with loads of concubine's.
5. Get very angry as you need at least 100 different wars to take all those high dev provinces in China.
 
pbnWZRk.jpg
 
5. Get very angry as you need at least 100 different wars to take all those high dev provinces in China.

If you're in eastern religion group (Confucian, Shinto, Buddhist) or pagan you get amazing CB that allows you take provinces for 50% cost and 50% AE of you're bordering Ming.
 
If you're in eastern religion group (Confucian, Shinto, Buddhist) or pagan you get amazing CB that allows you take provinces for 50% cost and 50% AE of you're bordering Ming.
I know, I'm currently playing as the Qing, and four wars later I still have a large chunk of Southern China to conquer, every time I take 100% worth of provinces from the Ming.
 
join the flock, eat the flock, surround the hen, eat the hen

Sadly unless you're horde (or a certain wizard playing Taungu on VH) this is not just the best strategy, it's the ONLY strategy.
Whenever I play in South East Asia or India I always end up becoming paying tribute not for protection but because I can't be bothered to fight Ming every time I want to expand.
 
it tedious to kill and boring to play imo (it was funny at first seeing what all the fuss was about) even without the the island cap stat its very op, a way to slightly remedy this would be if a non chinise tech group controlls core china territory they should start losing mandate,like how the HRE loses authority if a non member controls territory
 
because it always ends up ahistoric. Ming never ever struggles. thats not historic. also it makes the region really lame and uneventfull, basically the same as to why the western tech group doesnt get +300% discipline after about 1750.

Historic outcomes need historic causes to ever happen (a combination of Manchu invasions and a hugely successful rebellion and british/european interventions aka Opium Wars later on). If they are, or something at least remotely close to them, are not in place, then the current state of Ming is the most probable outcome. Or do you want to say that Ming that manages to squash all its rebellions and has no serious external threats should "struggle" with thin air? Now thats ahistorical.
 
Why should not it be OP though, its pretty historic

Not the way the game's mechanics interact.

China is extremely large. Large enough that troops on multiple fronts was necessary, and the logistics of supply when interacting with steppes or Indochina were non-trivial. Ming could sustain a pretty impressive army, but it was virtually impossible for it to point-focus it like the game trivially allows, to say nothing of the occasional IRL nightmare scenario of Ming sending 60k through Tibet --> Himalayas to circle around into Burmese lands from the West or something.

The game's logistical modeling + war score setup just don't lend to historical limitations. Not in China, not for colonial powers, not even in interior Europe...so we get stuck with the balance/especially gameplay consideration. MoH being a tributary has annoyances but is nevertheless not as cancerous as getting rivaled by Ming early in the game. Having a nation bully-rival you with 3x your development and 4x your standing army pre-1550 was BS and I don't miss it. I'm not entirely happy with how the region plays out right now, but it's better than before.

The rebellion + manchu invasion coincided with famine from the little ice age right? I'm not sure how the game models the global impact of that. Having impact a fractured China the same as a unified one wouldn't make sense, but it's one of the few events where human actions in the period wouldn't reasonably influence it happening.
 
The only luck I have had against the Ming has been colonial Japan, since I can make enough money to mercenary the shit out of the Chinese army, and blockade the Chinese coast. Even as them and the Manchu, the Ming never have "hard times" to limit their power, making them near impossible to kill before 1750. Other EU4 players that pull it off are gods among men.

That being said, neither do any other massive empires. Empires are way too stable in EU4, even when financially struggling.
 
Historic outcomes need historic causes to ever happen (a combination of Manchu invasions and a hugely successful rebellion and british/european interventions aka Opium Wars later on). If they are, or something at least remotely close to them, are not in place, then the current state of Ming is the most probable outcome. Or do you want to say that Ming that manages to squash all its rebellions and has no serious external threats should "struggle" with thin air? Now thats ahistorical.
a united manchu would get crushed by the games ming any time any day. rebels are even weaker. the game fails to represent a lot of what happened in reality, but it is and should to a degree be railroaded. Ming alraedy deals with every administrative matter with thin air, ming already ressuplies its troops in south america with thin air, ming already squaches any rebellions ever with thin air. thats ahistorical. a little thing called game limitations. understanding them is key to creating an enjoyable game. Ming chilling there till the end of time isnt an element in this supposed enjoyable game.
 
Sadly unless you're horde (or a certain wizard playing Taungu on VH) this is not just the best strategy, it's the ONLY strategy.
Whenever I play in South East Asia or India I always end up becoming paying tribute not for protection but because I can't be bothered to fight Ming every time I want to expand.

This is not true. I won against Ming as 400 dev ryukyu. I won as India Vynagar. Outmanoeuvre AI and you are good to go.
 
it tedious to kill and boring to play imo (it was funny at first seeing what all the fuss was about) even without the the island cap stat its very op, a way to slightly remedy this would be if a non chinise tech group controlls core china territory they should start losing mandate,like how the HRE loses authority if a non member controls territory
They loose mandate as soon as they border non-tributary. Think of Russia or anything powerful in India. Not sure how your idea is different from what is already in game.