Incoherent Immunities, Spells and Abilities

[gladis]

I recognized some incoherent stuff, please give opinion - they should get made harmonized imo:

A: Ghouling on Arch Angels and Dragons
Arch Angels and Dragons are immune to: Ghoul Curse, Archlich and Ghouling in Well of Souls
Dragons are immune to: Archlich
Arch Angels and Dragons are not immune to: Age of Death and Chant of Unlife
Arch Angels are not immune to: Archlich

B: Panicked Dragons
Dragons are immune to: Cause Fear, Fearsome, Fearstrike (Ability) and Shout of Intimidation (Spell)
Dragons are not immune to: Panic Attack and Mass Battlefield Panic (both Spells)

C: Dazzled Elementals
Elementals are immune to: Inflict Spirit Breaking, Inflict Dazed and Inflict Despair (all Spirit checks)
Elementals are not immune to: Inflict Dazzled (Spirit check)

D: Cursed Elementals
Elementals are immune to: Inflict Curse
Elementals are not immune to: Throw Curse, Mass Curse

E: Petrified Elementals and Incorporeals
Elementals and Incorporeals are immune to: Petrifying Scream (Spirit check)
Elementals and Incorporeals are not immune to: Petrified by Doom Gaze and Petrifying Touch (both Spirit checks)

F: Immobilized Elementals and Incorporeals
Elementals and Incorporeals are immune to: Inflict Immobilization by Throw Harpoon and Orc Impaler (Physical checks)
Elementals and Incorporeals are not immune to: Power of the Word (Spirit check)

G: Corpses of Elementals
The Corpses of Elementals are targets for: Collect Bones, Corpus Furia, Healing Essence
The Corpses of Elementals are no targets for: Devour Corpse, Raise Corpse

H: Corpses of Incorporeals
The Corpses of Incorporeals are targets for: Corpus Furia, Healing Essence
The Corpses of Incorporeals are no targets for: Collect Bones, Devour Corpse, Raise Corpse

I: Chilled Elementals and Incorporeals
Elementals and Incorporealsare immune to: Inflict Chilling (Frost check)
Elementals and Incorporeals are not immune to: Glacial Totem (unknown check)

J: High Morale on Undeads and Machines
Paid Absolution and Shrine to the Wizard King: Give High Morale to Undead and Machine units although they are unaffected by each other ability giving High Morale as far as I know.

K: Elementals and Machines can get dazed via Keeper of the Peace Master Spell "Shield of Light". Normally they are immune to Inflict Daze (Golden Dragon on Elite, Spirit Elemental).

L: Elementals suffer the Spirit attack while attacking/touching an enemy with the Shield of Light spell. Normally, they are totally immune to all "Auras" like Fire Aura, Frost Aura, Static Shield, Fearsome or Blinding Aura. So don´t suffer damage nor risks to get debuffs (Immolated, Frozen, Stunned, Panicked or Blinded).

M: Elementals, Machines and Dragons get the -20% Spirit weakness of Shield of Light but Undeads and Ghouls don´t get this debuff.

N: Elementals, Undeads and Machines are affected by Inspiring Aura (some are debatable).
Ghouls need it right now because otherwise the Dwarven RG Military Champion (Ancient Ancestor for Firstborns gives Inspired to adjacent units) would be quite useless for Necromancer.

O: Auras (check when enemy units attack/touch) on Elementals and Incorporeals
Elementals and Incorporeals are immune by the following Auras: Fire Aura, Frost Aura, Static Shield, Fearsome, Blinding Aura
Elementals and Incorporeals are not immune by the following Auras: Skin and Spiked Hide (granted by Wild Magic Master Combat Spell „Spontaneous Mutation“) and Shield of Light (Keeper of the Peace Master Combat Spell)
Inspiring Aura is different (no attack/check when enemy units attack/touch) so maybe should use another term to separate it (Inspiring Charism?).

P: Touches at Elementals and Incorporeals
Freezing and Stunning Touch: Elemental and Incorporeal are not affected.
Whereas Immolating and Petrifying Touch: Elemental and Incorporeal are affected.

/gladis

 

[xlnt]

Moral on Undeads is kinda of a thing with the Master of Puppets... but i see the point being made - not consistent with having morale outside of that tech.

 

[Rodmar18]

Well, some of them are debatable to some extend. As a translator, I found myself having often a hard time sorting all these effects and statuses out.

A: agreed, except if you consider Age of Death and Chant of Unlife as kind of higher grade magic!
By the way, I reported that Chant of Unlife may grant you permanent ghouls when it raises back resilient units (because apparently, resilient Combat Summons will be revived after battle).

B: debatable. I see Cause Fear, etc, being direct intimidation targeting conscious morale and courage. Panic Attack, on the other hand, could be seen rather as resulting from a psychological manipulation. Can't a clever rogue play nice and cheat with a magical creature such as a djinn, in tales?

C: debatable. Elementals don't have a biological body, and thus should be immune to any disease, be it natural or magical (= curse). So, what is dazzled about? I see Spirit Breaking as the spiritual counterpart for Curse (a physical magical disease). It can affect Undead because they have retained a "mundane" spirit. Same with Dazed (=Confused). Dazzle (by fireworks), on the other hand should affect any unit with eyes or eye-like organs. The problem is then perhaps the spirit check, not that Elementals, that are not blind, can be affected.

D: agreed. See C.

E: agreed. Perhaps the devs considered that petrified by a scream was akin to fear? Petrification should affect only creatures with biological body, and not any single creature with a life force.

F: disagreed. though the effect is the same, the medium is not. In one case, you immobilize at "muscles" 's level (like Stiffen Limbs), and you need muscles; in the other case, you need the "understanding" of a word of power. So, if Undead and Monsters are not immune to understanding a word, then Elementals and Incorporeals shouldn't as well. Deaf creatures (should they exist in game) would be immune, though.

G/H: agreed for Corpus Furia and Collect Bones.
Disagreed for Healing Essence, as this spell is all about exploiting the residual essence from magical beings.

I: agreed. Glacial Totem is said to chill its targets.

 

[Hiliadan]

A: Ghouling on Dragons

Dragons are immune to: Ghoul Curse, Lich Aura and Ghouling in Well of Souls

Dragons are not immune to: Age of Death and Chant of Unlife

Age of Death and Chant of Unlife are not about Ghouling but about raising deads. Dragons can be raised through Raise Corpse or Reanimate Undead. So there is nothing to change for me here.

@Rodmar18: I don't understand what is your opinion is? "For" what? Also what is "resilient"?

B: Panicked Dragons

Dragons are immune to: Cause Fear, Fearsome, Fearstrike (Abilities) and Shout of Intimidation (Spell)

Dragons are not immune to: Panic Attack and Mass Battlefield Panic (both Spells)

Agree they should be immune.

C: Dazzled Elementals

Elementals are immune to: Inflict Spirit Breaking, Inflict Dazed and Inflict Despair (all Spirit Checks)

Elementals are not immune to: Inflict Dazzled (Spirit Check)

I initially thought they should be immune, just like for Dazed. But Rodmar makes a good case that Dazzled is about Fireworks and it actually makes sense if it affects Elementals too. So not sure.

D: Cursed Elementals

Elementals are immune to: Inflict Curse

Elementals are not immune to: Throw Curse, Mass Curse

Should be immune.

E: Petrified Elementals and Incorporeals

Elementals and Incorporeals are immune to: Petrifying Scream

Elementals and Incorporeals are not immune to: Petrified by Doom Gaze and Petrifying Touch

Should be immune.

F: Immobilized Elementals and Incorporeals

Elementals and Incorporeals are immune to: Inflict Immobilization by Throw Harpoon and Orc Impaler (Physical Checks)

Elementals and Incorporeals are not immune to: Power of the Word (Spirit Check)

Here it's different, Elementals and Incorporeals do not really have a physical body so can't be immobilized by a harpoon. But Power of Words immobilize through the will of gods, so it should affect them.

G: Corpses of Elementals

The Corpses of Elementals are targets for: Collect Bones, Corpus Furia, Healing Essence

The Corpses of Elementals are no targets for: Devour Corpse, Raise Corpse

They should not be targetable by Collect Bones, Corpus Furia and Healing Essence.

H: Corpses of Incorporeals

The Corpses of Incorporeals are targets for: Corpus Furia, Healing Essence

The Corpses of Incorporeals are no targets for: Collect Bones, Devour Corpse, Raise Corpse

Same as Elementals.

I: Chilled Elementals, Incorporeals, Undeads and Machines

Elementals, Incorporeals, Undeads and Machines immune to: Inflict Chilling (Frost Check)

Elementals, Incorporeals, Undeads and Machines not immune to: Glacial Totem (unknown Check)

Should be immune to Glacial Totem.

J: High Morale on Undeads and Machines

Paid Absolution and Shrine to the Wizard King: Give High Morale to Undead and Machine units although they are unaffected by each other ability giving High Morale as far as I know.

I think the Shrine should give them High Morale as it's the power of a Wizard. For Paid Absolution, I don't have a strong opinion but I think it's fine. It's different from Chaplain, Imperial Authority or Bards as it has a superior magical origin.

 

[El_Lobo1986]

A: Ghouling on Dragons
Dragons are immune to: Ghoul Curse, Lich Aura and Ghouling in Well of Souls
Dragons are not immune to: Age of Death and Chant of Unlife

These are two different things imo. As Hili said Age of Death and Chant of Unlife is about raising dead units.

B: Panicked Dragons
Dragons are immune to: Cause Fear, Fearsome, Fearstrike (Abilities) and Shout of Intimidation (Spell)
Dragons are not immune to: Panic Attack and Mass Battlefield Panic (both Spells)

Yes, this should be changed.

C: Dazzled Elementals
Elementals are immune to: Inflict Spirit Breaking, Inflict Dazed and Inflict Despair (all Spirit Checks)
Elementals are not immune to: Inflict Dazzled (Spirit Check)

If both is a spirit check I would make elementals immun.

D: Cursed Elementals
Elementals are immune to: Inflict Curse
Elementals are not immune to: Throw Curse, Mass Curse

Yes, I would change that too.

E: Petrified Elementals and Incorporeals
Elementals and Incorporeals are immune to: Petrifying Scream
Elementals and Incorporeals are not immune to: Petrified by Doom Gaze and Petrifying Touch

Not sure about that. Are they all spirit checks?

F: Immobilized Elementals and Incorporeals
Elementals and Incorporeals are immune to: Inflict Immobilization by Throw Harpoon and Orc Impaler (Physical Checks)
Elementals and Incorporeals are not immune to: Power of the Word (Spirit Check)

These are two different things imo (like A). I agree that an elemental can't be immobilised physically but Spirit of the word is a spirit check so only 100% spirit protection should prevent the immobilasation.

G: Corpses of Elementals
The Corpses of Elementals are targets for: Collect Bones, Corpus Furia, Healing Essence
The Corpses of Elementals are no targets for: Devour Corpse, Raise Corpse

I agree wtih Hili that they should not be targetable by Collect bones, Corpus furia and healing essence.

H: Corpses of Incorporeals
The Corpses of Incorporeals are targets for: Corpus Furia, Healing Essence
The Corpses of Incorporeals are no targets for: Collect Bones, Devour Corpse, Raise Corpse

Same like G.

I: Chilled Elementals, Incorporeals, Undeads and Machines
Elementals, Incorporeals, Undeads and Machines immune to: Inflict Chilling (Frost Check)
Elementals, Incorporeals, Undeads and Machines not immune to: Glacial Totem (unknown Check)

They should be immun.

J: High Morale on Undeads and Machines
Paid Absolution and Shrine to the Wizard King: Give High Morale to Undead and Machine units although they are unaffected by each other ability giving High Morale as far as I know.

The origin seem to be magical so I think it's fine like it is. Puppet master works because it's magic so it should be for the boost from the shrine and paid absolution.

 

[Zaskow]

A: Ghouling on Dragons

Agreed.

B: Panicked Dragons

Agreed.

C: Dazzled Elementals

Agreed. In my opinion Dazzled status effect is a lesser version of Dazed status effect.

D: Cursed Elementals

Agreed.

E: Petrified Elementals and Incorporeals

Agreed. As for me this status effect should work through physical channel.

F: Immobilized Elementals and Incorporeals

Disagreed. Effect is the same, but different origin.

G: Corpses of Elementals

Agreed.

H: Corpses of Incorporeals

Agreed.

I: Chilled Elementals, Incorporeals, Undeads and Machines

As for me this debuff should work on these requisites.

J: High Morale on Undeads and Machines

Agreed/

Age of Death and Chant of Unlife are not about Ghouling but about raising deads. Dragons can be raised through Raise Corpse or Reanimate Undead. So there is nothing to change for me here.

You're wrong, because these spells create exactly GHOULS. Great Reawakening is about raising deads. Dragons can be raised through Raise Corpse, but creates a Cadaver, not dragon itself.

 

[Hiliadan]

They create ghouls because that's the only way a dead unit can be in game, there is no "Undead" non-Ghoul racial or Dwelling units.

Raising a cadaver as an Undead is totally different from attacking a LIVING unit and giving it Ghoul Curse, and then AFTER it dies, it becomes a Ghoul. With Age of Death and Chant of Unlife, the unit is ALREADY dead, and it's raised from the dead, but is still an undead.

For me, Dragons are immune to Ghoul Curse and process like Wells of Souls which transform them into Ghouls when they are alive. Their corpses are not immune to being raised from the dead, it's different.

 

[Rodmar18]

Age of Death and Chant of Unlife are not about Ghouling but about raising deads. Dragons can be raised through Raise Corpse or Reanimate Undead. So there is nothing to change for me here.

@Rodmar18: I don't understand what is your opinion is? "For" what?

I agree with Gladis because, as you say (or not), the game was lazy about different categories of Undead. If ghouls are ghouls, raising cadavers into ghouls is close to a non-sense imho. Being a ghoul is being in a state of half-death through a magical disease/curse. Ghouls retain memories, terrain preferences, racial vulnerabilities and protections. A raised corpse should always be like a raised cadaver, or a zombie-like creature. And there is no zombies in this game.
Either your point of view is valid, or you may see Age of Magic and Chant of Unlife as "infecting" the living with the ghoul curse prior to their actual death.
Note however a difference between the two: Age of Death makes permanent Ghouls, that could be called true ghouls, whereas Chant of Unlife create Combat Summons, that are destroyed at the end of the battle (ghouls or zombies?). Perhaps then, creatures immune to Ghoul Curse could be immune to Age of Death as well, and not to Chant of Unlife.

Also what is "resilient"?

Sorry, I used the localized word. It's "resurgent". I reported this on last month. When you fight against units having Resurgence and they are raised back in Ghoul form, when the battle is over, they are first killed (because they are Combat Summons), and then raised back as Ghouls at your service (because a ghouled unit retains the Resurgence trait, and Resurgence is just about not dying (once) when your side is winning). Apparently, being killed by the "Kill all Combat Invocations and end the tactical map" process is the same as being killed by a unit as far as Resurgence is concerned.

Thus, as a Necromancer playing against a Theocrat, you begin to recruit Ghoul Exalteds at each siege with Chant of Unlife active.

 

[Hiliadan]

If ghouls are ghouls, raising cadavers into ghouls is close to a non-sense imho.

For me it's just a technical limitation which should not influence the decision here. Being a Ghoul just means you're a dead unit. It doesn't mean all what you say about memory etc. It also doesn't mean ""infecting" the living with the ghoul curse prior to their actual death". When Age of Death is cast, you don't see a "Ghoul Curse" in the unit panel of all the living units.

 

[gladis]

First of all I didn´t give opinions in which "direction" I would want to make These stuff coherent.
So I don´t care right now for ALL stuff whether the Units are immune or not - it should just be coherent to avoid confusion.

A: Ghouling on Dragons
I didn´t understand your discussion a 100%, but I think simple on it (probably similar zo Rodmar):
For me Dragons should either be Ghouled with all Ghoul-making abilities or with None. Mixing is very confusing for me and your discussion doesn´t make it easier

B: Panicked Dragons
@Rodmar But they have all the same check (Spirit) and the same result (Panicked). It is just heavily confusing and I am sure the Devs just failed to make it coherent.

C: Dazzled Elementals
There I think they really shouldn´t get dazzled - a Mighty Elemental confused by a Little Firework - c´mon!

E: Petrified Elementals and Incorporeals
Yes Lobo, all are Spirit checks.

F: Immobilized Elementals and Incorporeals
Yes, they are 2 different things. I would be fine if we just invent another Name for Immobilized by Spirit Check. Immobilized should be only used for the physical stuff (again for avoiding confusion)

J: High Morale on Undeads and Machines
I doubt that we can make Units unaffected by High Morale of the Shrine to the Wizard King, but would vote for a strict impossibility of giving Undeads (and Machines) High Morale via Paid Absolution and Maybe other abilities. Undeads can get Memory of Joy and Puppets - they are Ghoul/Undead unique abilities - but they aren´t affected by High Morale, Minor Bard Skills, Bard Skills, Golden Dragon Inspiration etc.

 

[El_Lobo1986]

I'd like to change my opinion on I.

Only units with 100% frost protection should be immun to inflict chilling no matter where it comes from.

 

[Rodmar18]

So, you would make a difference (as regards to immunities) between Frostbite and Chilling? Frostbite would require a biological body, whereas Chilling (and Frozen) could affect Machine, Undead and non-100% Immune to frost units.

In-game, however, Elementals, Machines and Undead are immune to Chilling.

 

[Hiliadan]

Blinded is a physical debuff. Yet, it can be removed by Break Control, which usually works on spirit debuff. Should it be changed so that Break Control doesn't work on it?

 

[gladis]

For me it should be changed,

 

[Rodmar18]

What is the purpose of being a physical debuff for Blinded, by the way? What happens if it is changed to a spiritual debuff?
Note that you can "blind" a creature by throwing a powder in the eyes, or by putting an illusionary spell on it (it the same ambivalence as for petrifying, depending on how you interpret legends)

 

[gladis]

For me the Physical/Spirit debuffs should get different names. E. G. Blind/Blinded. But no big iussue I think.