in CK3 incest in zoroastinism must be removed and iranian characters must not have arabic names

[sstabeler]

Whatever they wrote into historical records about it, you must consider that Incest is fetishized today and was definitely fetishized back then to. That renders a lot historical accounts about it rather questionable since people will believe the most absurd ridiculous stories as long as they tickle their sexuality. Anyone remember the reddit-broken-arms story? 100% pure concentrated nonsense, but people took it for the real deal because they wanted to. People in Ancient times were just as prone to the same bad judgement from within, there has been no change whatsoever.

Most likely is that any documented close-kin marriage was largely formal. The children produced by them? Could be theirs of course. Or more likely, it could be that both sides simply took themselves lovers as it happens when you put two people together that most likely aren't sexually attracted to each other at all. And when you compare these two possibilities keep in mind that there is a 40% chance of serious birth defects in incestuous children which would be a total death sentence for every dynasty, yet next to nothing is written of these consequences. And keep in mind that contemporary historians documenting the facts had zero access to the actual private life of the people they wrote about.

I personally don't believe the way CK2 portrayed Zoroastrianism was close to reality, but I wouldn't care if it stays similar, since without that mechanic there is next to nothing interesting about the religion besides the fact that you can play as non-islamic Persia.

More like a 40% higher risk of serious birth defects, not 40% overall.

 

[Nuklearius]

More like a 40% higher risk of serious birth defects, not 40% overall.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/animals-and-us/201210/the-problem-incest
Source: A study of Czechoslovakian children whose fathers were first-degree relatives. Fewer than half of the children who were the product of incestuous unions were completely healthy. Forty-two percent of them were born with severe birth defects or suffered early death and another 11 percent mildly impaired mentally. This study is particularly instructive as it included a unique control group—the offspring of the same mothers but whose fathers were not the mothers’ relatives. When the same women were impregnated by a non-relative, only 7 percent of their children were born with a birth defect (Figure 1).

For normal people it's very unlikely that both partners carry the same mutated/dysfunctional gene, but for siblings it is 50%. That means the chance of their children getting a gene-pair that has both sides "bricked" is very high. And that is just for the recessive stuff. If both sides have perfectly healthy genetics it is theoretically possible to always create healthy children, but in reality that is never the case.

The best fact about genetic risk is that Pakistanis make up 3% of British population, but 30% of the people with birth defects in Britain. And that is just the effect of Cousin marriages, which are relatively common, yet present a 10x increased risk already.

 

[JSB217118]

I think there should be more genetic penalties for incest and it should be less prevalent for Zoroastrianism, maybe make it a reward for restoring the Persian Empire. Regardless of historical accuracy it takes up 90 percent of discussions on Zoroastrianism and prevents the religion from getting explored more for literally anything else.

 

[Krajzen]

I think there should be more genetic penalties for incest and it should be less prevalent for Zoroastrianism, maybe make it a reward for restoring the Persian Empire. Regardless of historical accuracy it takes up 90 percent of discussions on Zoroastrianism and prevents the religion from getting explored more for literally anything else.

I agree, I am really annoyed how Zoroastrian religion was completely devoured by the incest meme, based on ahistorical version of xwedodah as well. It should be rarer and more destructive. I understand how Zoroastrians or Iranians could feel bad about the perception of their religion in game. It's as if Islam had designated "Allahu Akbar kill infidel" mechanic.

There is also one aspect of xwedodah not mentioned yet, that apparently zoroastrian priests considered incestual intercourse pious because it is instinctively repulsive and difficult even for zoroastrian. Also, I remember from certain massive book about Iranian history that incest part was very controversial and despised by significant part of common population.

 

[FleetingRain]

There is also one aspect of xwedodah not mentioned yet, that apparently zoroastrian priests considered incestual intercourse pious because it is instinctively repulsive and difficult even for zoroastrian.

Huh what. It was pious because it was repulsive sex which means people wouldn't have much of it?

 

[Aqua817]

I do hope CK3's Zoroastrianism has more of a hat than being the incest religion because it always makes me a bit uncomfortable to read Paradox threads about it even if I know most of you guys are well-meaning and simply using the game as presented to you, because being known as "that religion that lets you fuck your sister" is kind of sucky, you know?

I think that this is probably the core of the issue. Right now, Zoroastrianism in CKII is kind of a joke. It's some obscure religion that "lets you have your sister-mother-wife" while otherwise disappearing within the first two centuries of gameplay unless something dramatic happens. The fact that incest is basically the defining feature of Zoroastrianism, even though it is a unique religion in it's own right, just kind of makes it seem like it's there for a laugh, a religion that lets you post ebic wacky gamer moment screenshots to Reddit and on here and not much more.

Really, just adding some actually memorable mechanics to Zoroastrianism (and Manicheanism and Coptic Christianity and...) would probably help it become a bit more than just a joke in game. I ain't Zoroastrian, though, so I don't know what in particular shoudl be added.

 

[Krajzen]

Huh what. It was pious because it was repulsive sex which means people wouldn't have much of it?

It was pious and glorious act, but also difficult one (to copulate with one's close relatives), thus even more glorious - to overcome quite universal instincts in the name of holy.
(Though I am sure there were some who didn't mind incest...)

I think that this is probably the core of the issue. Right now, Zoroastrianism in CKII is kind of a joke. It's some obscure religion that "lets you have your sister-mother-wife" while otherwise disappearing within the first two centuries of gameplay unless something dramatic happens. The fact that incest is basically the defining feature of Zoroastrianism, even though it is a unique religion in it's own right, just kind of makes it seem like it's there for a laugh, a religion that lets you post ebic wacky gamer moment screenshots to Reddit and on here and not much more.

Zoroastrianism incest meme is my second most hated "epic wacky gamer Reddit moment" after Gandhi nuke joke from the same website. Honestly at this point I actually consider them to be lowkey offensive, given how completely they overshadow real life Mahatma/Zoroastrianism. At least xwedodah actually existed in Z in some form, unlike Mahatma's case where profound thought of a man is completely overshadowed by repetitious joke explicitly negating it.

I can understand how actual believer could be angry how his people are depicted among the fanbase, even if OP is terribly written.

 

[durbal]

Zoroastrianism incest meme is my second most hated "epic wacky gamer Reddit moment" after Gandhi nuke joke from the same website. Honestly at this point I actually consider them to be lowkey offensive, given how completely they overshadow real life Mahatma/Zoroastrianism. At least xwedodah actually existed in Z in some form, unlike Mahatma's case where profound thought of a man is completely overshadowed by repetitious joke explicitly negating it.

I can understand how actual believer could be angry how his people are depicted among the fanbase, even if OP is terribly written.

The key difference between those two is that the Gandhi nuke joke was caused by a bug that allowed his aggressiveness variable to overflow (i.e. when it went into negatives, it 'wrapped around' and became super high). Zoroastrianism in CK2 was caused by Paradox devs who think meme generation is actual gameplay and unfortunately added it to a lot of DLCs.

 

[Avian Overlord]

It was pious and glorious act, but also difficult one (to copulate with one's close relatives), thus even more glorious - to overcome quite universal instincts in the name of holy.

Like self-flagellation.

(Though I am sure there were some who didn't mind incest...)

Again, just like self-flagellation.

I think that this is probably the core of the issue. Right now, Zoroastrianism in CKII is kind of a joke. It's some obscure religion that "lets you have your sister-mother-wife" while otherwise disappearing within the first two centuries of gameplay unless something dramatic happens. The fact that incest is basically the defining feature of Zoroastrianism, even though it is a unique religion in it's own right, just kind of makes it seem like it's there for a laugh, a religion that lets you post ebic wacky gamer moment screenshots to Reddit and on here and not much more.

What I want is for dropping Divine Blood being priority number one for Zoroastrian games. The salt will be beautiful, and it makes perfect historical sense.

 

[DPS]

The salt will beautiful, and it makes perfect historical sense.

Though perhaps not grammatical sense.

 

[JSB217118]

But muh incest babies.

 

[Nussor]

4. This is a game. Not everything has to be 100% accurate. Even the most fleshed-out religions and cultures are not that well represented. Point is to have a fun and entertaining gameplay, not to be completely strict with historical accuracy.

Such obvious truisms are deflections that reveal an unwillingness to engage with ideas, in this case wishes to more accurately represent a certain religion & culture. Nobody is expecting a perfect simulation, but a willingness to engage with the history that is represented in this historical game that is played by people who care about history. I hope that Paradox shows the appropriate form.

 

[Shahanshah Rober]

Fair points

 

[AndrewT]

Please don't re-open old threads. Thanks.