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May 1, 2009
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Ok off the CK topic I know, but I was watching a program on the history channel yesterday about Isaac Newton's investigations into the bible. It made reference to his fixation on the date 800 AD when Charlemenge was crowned the Holy Roman Emperor by the pope. The thing that urked me was that as it mentioned this it had a graphical map of Europe that showed a dot at Constantinople with a spreading red colour representing the Byzantine Empire with the words "Holy Roman Empire".

The Holy Roman Empire was not in the east darn it, nor was Charlemenge ever an eastern Emperor. Totally two seperate entities. It was a good program but I honestly lost all interest after that factual face-palm. Anyone else have a similar experience with TV or a book or a professor?

kilarious
 
More than that I don't believe the term Holy Roman Emperor and Empire were used for more than a century after Charlemange.
 
I always thought that the term Holy to describe the Empire was something that happened quite a bit later, and even then I do not think the Emperors referred to themselves by this. Charlemagne was simply crowned Emperor of the Romans by the Pope IIRC. He then divided his Empire up, and it was not for another 160 odd years before we had the official establishment of the HRE by Otto I. I thought that the HREmperors used terms like "Emperor of Humanity" and things like that. Could be wrong. Either way, it is in no way correct to use Charlemagne, HRE or the like when referring to what is correctly labeled the Eastern Roman Empire.

Cheers,
~Hawk
 
I'm taking French right now and reading some French history, in French, as part of my studying. Anyway, recently read about Charlemagne, and I was more under the impression that being crowned emperor by the pope was more of an... I don't want to say *honorary* but it wasn't exactly a *functional* title either, and it was more important for what it eventually became, ie, the HRE?
 
I did read some old German school book about the Roman emperors (it was from 18th century) and there they started from the Roman emperors, then they moved Charlemagne and his successors and eventually to Holy Roman Emperors all the way to contemporary emperor. They didn't make distinction between Augustus, Charlemagne or Charles V, but presented them as the rulers of the same Roman Empire.

Transaltio Imperii seems to have been popular theory in the Empire despite the comments of Voltaire.
 
I'm taking French right now and reading some French history, in French, as part of my studying. Anyway, recently read about Charlemagne, and I was more under the impression that being crowned emperor by the pope was more of an... I don't want to say *honorary* but it wasn't exactly a *functional* title either, and it was more important for what it eventually became, ie, the HRE?

When Charlemagne was crowned "Emperor of the Romans", it was seen by contemporaries (and himself) as a very awkward honor. There are sources (Alkuin?) which say that Charles would not have come to Rome had be known that the pope wanted to crown him Emperor.

The idea of a Frankish illiterate king being heir to the grandest and most civilized empire Europe had known until then was rightly seen as a little ridiculous. Imagine the host of the Frankish king travelling through Italy of the time... with Roman ruins all over the place reminding people that once upon a time there was an empire much grander than anything their own times could offer... Rome itself only a medium sized town, surrounded by ruins and a city wall much too large to be manned... and the Italians themselves regarding the Franks as aliens and barbarians... and then this pope goes and tells the bearded, hulking barbarian in his dirty stockings that he is the new emperor of the Romans. A ridiculous flattery, an obvious ploy to inflate the egos of the Franks and enlist their help against the real Romans (the Byzantines). But it worked.

The Franks had as much claim to the Roman throne as the Bulgarians or the Visigoths... it's merely a quirk of history that in 800 there happened to be a woman on the Byzantine throne, a bold anti-Byzantine pope and a Frankish king with power over northern Italy. Remove any one of those factors and there never may be a Holy Roman Emperor.
 
1. The Pope crowned the King, thus "confirming" that the Pope is above the king. Note, almost all of CTGs sucessors crowned themselves.

2. CTG was not illiterate.
 
1. The Pope crowned the King, thus "confirming" that the Pope is above the king. Note, almost all of CTGs sucessors crowned themselves.
The pope did not crown the Frankish king, he crowned the Roman Emperor. Frankish kings were anointed and crowned by some bishop AFAIK and that Bishop most assuredly was not above the king..

And none of Charlemagne's successors could crown themselves emperor, that was always the priviledge of the pope. I thought you were a history buff? :confused:

2. CTG was not illiterate.

He learned to read (as an adult) and was a patron of arts and poetry, but he never learned to write.
 
The idea of a Frankish illiterate king being heir to the grandest and most civilized empire Europe had known until then was rightly seen as a little ridiculous.

Um...contemporaries did not have such a fascination with the Roman empire and emperors. In the memory of the time, 'Roman empire' was associated with pagan persecution of Christian martyrs. That was the memory the Church had cultivated and put front and center. Roman ruins weren't well regarded. They were unholy pagan ground, to be disdained and avoided by good Christians, at best raided for building material. Visitors to Rome never set foot in the Roman forum or the Capitol-Palatine hill area. They visited the titular churches, the catacombs and martyrdom sites.
 
About the Holy Roman Empire, from what I've gleaned having had the discussion before, it seems to me it is common and accepted practice in the English speaking world to roll the Carolingian Empire of Charlemagne and the later, 10th c., "Heilige Römische Reich Deutscher Nation" of Otto the Great into one "Holy Roman Empire" — never mind that Otto's naming practice excludes the lands of the French kings from his creation (making a claim like that on the lands of the king of France would be pretty aggressive).

It tends to create confusion, since people used to the English language practice miss how and when France got dropped from the empire.
 
Um...contemporaries did not have such a fascination with the Roman empire and emperors. In the memory of the time, 'Roman empire' was associated with pagan persecution of Christian martyrs. That was the memory the Church had cultivated and put front and center. Roman ruins weren't well regarded. They were unholy pagan ground, to be disdained and avoided by good Christians, at best raided for building material. Visitors to Rome never set foot in the Roman forum or the Capitol-Palatine hill area. They visited the titular churches, the catacombs and martyrdom sites.

It sounds a little far fetched that the Christian church would begrudge the Roman Empire for their persecution, in light of the fact that there had been Christian emperors for more than a hundred years prior to the Western Empire's demise. Where do you get this from?
 
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It sounds a little far fetched that the Christian church would begrudge the Roman Empire for their persecution, in light of the fact that there had been Christian emperors for more than a hundred years prior to the Western Empire's demise. Where do you get this from?
I agree. If anything the time shows an absolute fascination with the Roman Empire. The fact that they repeatedly went about trying to somehow recreate it should speak volumes. It's not as if anyone was making them.:)
 
I agree. If anything the time shows an absolute fascination with the Roman Empire. The fact that they repeatedly went about trying to somehow recreate it should speak volumes. It's not as if anyone was making them.:)

Agreed, although it should be mentioned that the Rome they were fascinated with was late-antiquity christian Rome, not classical Rome. (Which really came back only with the renaissance)
 
I agree. If anything the time shows an absolute fascination with the Roman Empire. The fact that they repeatedly went about trying to somehow recreate it should speak volumes. It's not as if anyone was making them.:)

Not to mention emulating all sorts of Roman artistic styles (with varying degrees of success) all through the period.
 
It sounds a little far fetched that the Christian church would begrudge the Roman Empire for their persecution, in light of the fact that there had been Christian emperors for more than a hundred years prior to the Western Empire's demise. Where do you get this from?

From accounts of the church in Rome up to this period. From the writings of the Church fathers, their organization, construction and pilgrimage patterns in the city, etc. From their responses to existing Byzantine emperors when the latter tried to flatter the pope with the connection. :)

Half those 'Christian' emperors were heretics and schismatics, and persecutors in their own right. With a couple of exceptions, they weren't really held in good memory.

Roman Church was obsessed with martyrology. That was its organizing 'character'. Just check out the Christian calendar - every day celebrates the Roman persecutions. Persecution was their organizing ethos. There was the Rome of Peter and Paul, to be cherished, remembered, while the Rome of Augustus and Nero was to be forgotten and disdained. The Church wanted nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with imperial Rome.

What would a Christian visitor do in Rome? He would visit the titular homes of the Christian martyrs - Cecilia, Lucina, Vestina, Prassede, Pudenzia, Prisca, Bizante, Pammachius, Pastore, Clemente, Nicomede, Anastasia, Balbina, Nereus and Achilleus, the brothers John and Paul, priests Marcellinus and Peter, Chrysogonus, Cyriacus, the Quattro Coronati, the popes Clement, Sixtus, etc., whose names and stories they knew by heart from the church calendar and services. They visited the shrines of the Apostles St. Peter and St. Paul, St. Lawrence the Archdeacon, St. Agnes the Virgin, the Mammertine prison, the catacombs of Trastevere, etc. And at every step the story of the Roman persecutions would be told and retold, again and again.

And while they went from martyr to martyr, the hills of the Palatine and Capitol, with their pagan temples and palaces of the persecutors, loomed in the background, avoided, disdained.

And its not as if those imperial institutions disappeared either. Up until the 7th C., the senate, the forum and the imperial palaces on the Capitol-Palatine area remained in operation - albeit in the hands of a new oppressive enemy, the Arians (whether Byzzie or Ostrogoth). The hill's pagan temples continued to be focal points for crypto-pagan worship down to the 6th C. And, of course, that most despised of monuments, the Colloseum, the site of so many Christian deaths, continued to be operated by the imperial authorities until the 6th C.

What would the Church, what would a good Christian, want to do with that?

Now, admittedly there was a change under Gregory the Great, who absconded with administrative authority in the city, and did try to claim a bit of Roman authority for himself. But he orchestrated this very carefully, to avoid poking at the Church's raw sensitivities. He did not claim imperial title directly, but rather installed the seven deaconates in or around the abandoned pagan hills (seven deacons was the civic organization of Apostolic Jerusalem and the conscious reference point for organization of Christian communities). By this greatly symbolic gesture, Gregory asserted the final 'victory' of Apostolic Jerusalem over Imperial Rome, giving him the 'right' to claim the civic authority of the latter without violating the living memory of the martyrs.

It was only after this that the Church felt comfortable enough to begin toning down its inherent hatred of the empire and everything related to it and bridging the hitherto inimical chasm between Roman Church and Roman State. But the martyrology continued to be drummed, and the connections remained touch-and-go.

(On the Pantheon: the emperors had issued edicts at least as early as 408 allowing the conversion of pagan temples to Christian use. The Church refused to make use of it. Not a single pagan temple was converted, until after Gregory - the Pantheon in 609 was the first.)

(And, alas, we can also credit - or rather blame - Gregory for pushing that lamentable rewrite of history asserting it was the Jews, not the Romans, who were the Christ-killers. Part of his whitewash of Roman heritage.)

Now, it is true this changed even more dramatically in the late 8th C., which is when the whole Donation of Constantine thing was cooked up, and the pope and Roman cardinalate claimed direct Roman authority openly as 'successors' of the Roman Senate and Republic.

But emperors qua emperors still weren't that cool - still too much Nero, as it were. Charlemagne's measure, whom he was to be compared to, was narrowly Constantine, the only 'good emperor' in Christian estimation. The allusion was not to the 'glory' of pagan imperial Rome, but to the magnificence of Constantine alone.
 
When Charlemagne was crowned "Emperor of the Romans", it was seen by contemporaries (and himself) as a very awkward honor. There are sources (Alkuin?) which say that Charles would not have come to Rome had be known that the pope wanted to crown him Emperor.

The idea of a Frankish illiterate king being heir to the grandest and most civilized empire Europe had known until then was rightly seen as a little ridiculous. Imagine the host of the Frankish king travelling through Italy of the time... with Roman ruins all over the place reminding people that once upon a time there was an empire much grander than anything their own times could offer... Rome itself only a medium sized town, surrounded by ruins and a city wall much too large to be manned... and the Italians themselves regarding the Franks as aliens and barbarians... and then this pope goes and tells the bearded, hulking barbarian in his dirty stockings that he is the new emperor of the Romans. A ridiculous flattery, an obvious ploy to inflate the egos of the Franks and enlist their help against the real Romans (the Byzantines). But it worked.

The Franks had as much claim to the Roman throne as the Bulgarians or the Visigoths... it's merely a quirk of history that in 800 there happened to be a woman on the Byzantine throne, a bold anti-Byzantine pope and a Frankish king with power over northern Italy. Remove any one of those factors and there never may be a Holy Roman Emperor.


It's Einhard who makes the claim that Charles was reluctant. I can't remember the source right now, but some modern historian made good argument that Charles couldn't have been ignorant about the coming coronation and Einhard's story is political propaganda to make Charles look like humble and pious Christian monarch who doesn't seek earthly glory. Charles' and his successors wanted to give good public image to Italians and Franks, because Byzantines were pretty angry about his "usurpation of the Empire". Only after a war they grudgingly recognised that Charles was basileios of the West.

Similar reluctance is typical in lives of the medieval saints, who only accept position of power because it's God's will. It looked much more legitimate in the eyes of medieval people if you were crowned by the will of God to task you didn't want in the first place than if you gained the position because of your personal political ambitions. Charles did use imperial title in his charters, so the title wasn't as unpleasant as it would seem if we believe Einhard.