Hivemind 2.6, Society output gone?

[V-Metamorph]

On this video made by one of your promoter, it would seem synapse have been stripped from their society output bonus. Was it given to another job (spawning pool maybe?) or did you simply remove it?

Now I've no idea how much of an impact admin cap has on an empire with the new system, but I really hope there are still means to boost the society output of an Hivemind (the Biological boys), since the equivalent of Temple/culture worker seems to no longer exist. It's feels like loosing a bit of the identity of this type of empire despite having made something new. (Unless you decided this extra society output was only something Tree of life/Devoring Swarm should have access to?)

 

[FiddleSticks96]

For anyone who wants to know what he's talking about but doesn't have time to watch the video at the moment, check time 13:55 to see the Synapse Drone output.

@V-Metamorph I can see that the Synapse Drone job is presumably producing 2 minerals, 2 energy, 3 unity, and 5 of what I assume is admin capacity, or at least it will be in 2.6+. I cannot see the upkeep since the promoter didn't scroll over the job description. Because he is playing a Lithoid race, it is possible that non-lithoid hives will produce 2 food instead of 2 minerals.

We can compare this to what Synapse Drones currently produce, which is 3 unity and 3 society with an upkeep of 2 energy and 2 food (or 2 minerals in the case of lithoids). Is either one objectively better? That is hard to say because neither is a direct comparison. The scant amount of energy and minerals (food?) that Synapse Drones will be producing in the mid-late game won't matter much. The unity and admin cap will be their primary purpose. Having more research points is arguably better, depending on your situation. On the other hand, Synapse Drones actively harm you in the early game (before 2.6) since they have a high upkeep of energy and food (or minerals) and both of those resources are much more important early game than they are later on (especially in the case of lithoids). We can assume that Synapse Drones Jobs will not have an upkeep of energy/food/minerals in 2.6, since these are resources they also produce.

 

[brn4meplz]

Honestly, I prefer the Admin cap given the choice. When I'm a hive mind, it's usually my admin cap disparity that cripple my costs. But as I understand it, Admin cap in 2.6 is getting a complete facelift, so maybe our current basis for understanding isn't relevant in the new system.

 

[Gorgalog]

in my opinion the guy doing the video didn't do a good job showing off Calamitous birth like the video was advertised
he just kind of glossed over everything related to the origin quickly to the point where I get the feeling that he doesn't actually understand anything about it at all and 90 percent of he video was just a normal stellaris playthrough with little to no showing off of the new content
like compare it to the previous one, its hugely different compared to the guy who showed off The Remnants Origin where he spent most the video showing off stuff related to the origin and talking about it

 

[V-Metamorph]

in my opinion the guy doing the video didn't do a good job showing off Calamitous birth like the video was advertised
he just kind of glossed over everything related to the origin quickly to the point where I get the feeling that he doesn't actually understand anything about it at all and 90 percent of he video was just a normal stellaris playthrough with little to no showing off of the new content
like compare it to the previous one, its hugely different compared to the guy who showed off The Remnants Origin where he spent most the video showing off stuff related to the origin and talking about it

It was still better than the ring world one when the guy rush through it.

 

[V-Metamorph]

For anyone who wants to know what he's talking about but doesn't have time to watch the video at the moment, check time 13:55 to see the Synapse Drone output.

@V-Metamorph I can see that the Synapse Drone job is presumably producing 2 minerals, 2 energy, 3 unity, and 5 of what I assume is admin capacity, or at least it will be in 2.6+. I cannot see the upkeep since the promoter didn't scroll over the job description. Because he is playing a Lithoid race, it is possible that non-lithoid hives will produce 2 food instead of 2 minerals.

We can compare this to what Synapse Drones currently produce, which is 3 unity and 3 society with an upkeep of 2 energy and 2 food (or 2 minerals in the case of lithoids). Is either one objectively better? That is hard to say because neither is a direct comparison. The scant amount of energy and minerals (food?) that Synapse Drones will be producing in the mid-late game won't matter much. The unity and admin cap will be their primary purpose. Having more research points is arguably better, depending on your situation. On the other hand, Synapse Drones actively harm you in the early game (before 2.6) since they have a high upkeep of energy and food (or minerals) and both of those resources are much more important early game than they are later on (especially in the case of lithoids). We can assume that Synapse Drones Jobs will not have an upkeep of energy/food/minerals in 2.6, since these are resources they also produce.

Upkeep was shown to be 1.5 energy for 3.5 mineralz, but the output doesn't seem affected by the habitability. The thing clearly appear as a buff, it s just a shame we had to further sacrifice the emphasis hivemind put on society research...

 

[V-Metamorph]

Honestly, I prefer the Admin cap given the choice. When I'm a hive mind, it's usually my admin cap disparity that cripple my costs. But as I understand it, Admin cap in 2.6 is getting a complete facelift, so maybe our current basis for understanding isn't relevant in the new system.

Well yeah, we might "prefer" it, but we still loose our temple equivalent... i personnaly had entire build revolved around it and I was probably not the only one. And they were working, passed the rather hard early game

 

[Peter34]

Honestly, I prefer the Admin cap given the choice. When I'm a hive mind, it's usually my admin cap disparity that cripple my costs. But as I understand it, Admin cap in 2.6 is getting a complete facelift, so maybe our current basis for understanding isn't relevant in the new system.

According to the information I've gathered, from dev diaries and other public sources:

One. Some of the bonuses to Admin Cap that are currently additive in nature will change to percentage bonuses. For instance a Civic that adds +20 or +30 Cap, or a Perk that adds +20 or 30 Cap, will instead add +10% or +15% or +20% Cap. The bonus from Pacifism is changed in a similar way; rather than being a flat bonus to Cap it's now a reduction in the amount that POPs adds to Empire Size (so basically a very similar effect).

This is to my mind a much more important change to the game, than most people seem to realize, because previously such bonuses were rather useless, except for Pacifism which was actually of some use in the early game and into the mid game. Now such bonuses from Civics, Perks, etc, will remain useful throughout the game.

Two. Gestalt Empires will get changed penalties for exceeding Cap. Currently, in 2.5, all empire types get the same penalties for exceeding Cap, except Corporations which get a higher penalty. We don't know that Corporations will still get that penalty in 2.6, as far as I know, but it's reasonable to assume that they do. However, we have been told that in 2.6, Machine Empires will get an increased penalty similar to that of Corporations, whereas Hive Minds will get a reduced penalty, i.e. the reverse of the Corp effect.

Three. I'm not sure that we've been told if the penalties for going over, as per base values, will be harsher or lighter or similar to 2.5. I personally like the idea of non-linear penalties where you get a bit extra penalty for being over twice Cap, and a bit more penalty again for being over thrice Cap, but that's just my own idea, I have not seen anything from devs to support this. It's somewhat reasonable to assume that the penalties will be the same as in 2.5, except as per item two above.

Four. We know that you can now create Jobs via Buildings that increase your Admin Cap. I have no information about the game balance of this, but according to previous posts in this thread, such Jobs have high Upkeep in Consumer Goods.

 

[Red Death]

For anyone who wants to know what he's talking about but doesn't have time to watch the video at the moment, check time 13:55 to see the Synapse Drone output.

@V-Metamorph I can see that the Synapse Drone job is presumably producing 2 minerals, 2 energy, 3 unity, and 5 of what I assume is admin capacity, or at least it will be in 2.6+. I cannot see the upkeep since the promoter didn't scroll over the job description. Because he is playing a Lithoid race, it is possible that non-lithoid hives will produce 2 food instead of 2 minerals.

I'm looking at 9:47, and it's quite clear the 2 energy and minerals are upkeep, not production.

 

[CptMuddles]

That's kind of a bummer. I know synapse drones have been the redheaded stepchild to machine empires' coordinators for a few patches now, but I don't think getting rid of the hive's major source of society research (which they "need" to pursue the genetic ascension path, improve their armies and fleets, and manage bureaucracy) was the right answer.

It's tricky to know what this means ahead of release, because Paradox have been pretty tight-lipped about admin cap and empire sprawl in 2.6. The last word on it was their Dev Diary in August 2019, more than six months ago. What they say there about hives, at least, seems to be true: That they're meant to have a hard time producing admin capacity, but aren't penalised as much for going over it, and that synapse drones produce admin cap. Which seems like a bit of a meaningless decison to me - are they meant to go over the cap, or are they meant to build synapse worlds?

We'll have to wait and see whether they've kept their changes to machine empires, though. The old dev diary says that Coordinators produce admin cap instead of unity, and they get another job called Evaluators to produce unity instead. I don't know why hive minds get left out to dry here, but OK.

I would've honestly preferred it if Synapse Drones made unity, society, and admin cap, while Coordinators made unity, engineering, and simple drone output (like they do currently). Give MEs a job that's a glorified bureaucrat (or some other way to generate admin cap), since Paradox thinks that giving them a +100% admin sprawl penalty is a meaningful drawback for them. Bam, you've got them split into distinct roles.

in my opinion the guy doing the video didn't do a good job showing off Calamitous birth like the video was advertised
he just kind of glossed over everything related to the origin quickly to the point where I get the feeling that he doesn't actually understand anything about it at all and 90 percent of he video was just a normal stellaris playthrough with little to no showing off of the new content
like compare it to the previous one, its hugely different compared to the guy who showed off The Remnants Origin where he spent most the video showing off stuff related to the origin and talking about it

I don't blame the guy for not going into too much detail, it looks surprisingly niche. You get a cheaper colony ship that greatly increases the number of districts and minerals available on that planet, but you're trading away the lithoid's +50% habitability and -25% growth rate for the privilege. It feels like a bit of a wash to me.

 

[V-Metamorph]

I don't blame the guy for not going into too much detail, it looks surprisingly niche. You get a cheaper colony ship that greatly increases the number of districts and minerals available on that planet, but you're trading away the lithoid's +50% habitability and -25% growth rate for the privilege. It feels like a bit of a wash to me.

I wouldn't be so sure, the colony shenanigans to generate growth with that seems quite strong

 

[Turnil]

see dev dairy
Stellaris Dev Diary #153 - Empire Sprawl & Administrative Capacity

 

[Nevars]

I think trading society output to admin cap is actually good but then again this is of 2.5 mindset so will have to see how it plays out in 2.6 first.

 

[Tech Noir Synth]

On this video made by one of your promoter, it would seem synapse have been stripped from their society output bonus. Was it given to another job (spawning pool maybe?) or did you simply remove it?

Now I've no idea how much of an impact admin cap has on an empire with the new system, but I really hope there are still means to boost the society output of an Hivemind (the Biological boys), since the equivalent of Temple/culture worker seems to no longer exist. It's feels like loosing a bit of the identity of this type of empire despite having made something new. (Unless you decided this extra society output was only something Tree of life/Devoring Swarm should have access to?)

I didn't want to make a thread myself, but you already made one, so I will comment on some things.

This video has me extremely worried about Hiveminds. Why? I see huge nerfs coming for Hiveminds that are not justified:

Maintenance Drones now produce 3 amenities instead of 4. This is another HUGE nerf compared to 2.2, when they initially started with 5 amenities. See in video at 24:38.

Hunter Seeker Drones still only reduce deviancy by 20, as opposed to Enforcers, which reduce crime by 25 (and happy pops produce less crime anyway). Deviancy is a huge issue for Hiveminds, it looks like this has not been adressed. See video 24:55.

Spawning Drone job produces 4 amenities down from 5. Its still a 25% pop growth speed bonus. Will there be finally more upgrade levels for spawning pools? Only this could justify such a nerf. After all Hiveminds end up with the worst lategame growth because they can't use Robots for pop growth.

Hive Warren was nerfed from 6 housing to 3 housing granted. This building was the pillar of Hivemind economy, since you could get good results on Hive worlds with maxed ressource districts and Hive warrens. A huge nerf to the only strength Hivemind had. Why?

I paid close attention to administrative capacity. And it seemed like for most of this video, the player was staying below the admin cap. So the new -20% penalty for going over admin cap never had any effect. If its this easy, then I don't expect any actual nerfs to Machine empires (which have the best jobs at producing admin cap), and this is extremely worrying aswell.

Also, I can't help but heavily criticize this video. It did not give me a good overview about this Lithoid-only origin. Whats the point of using 375 mineral colonizer ship to create a -50 habitabiliy effect and some blockers? Doesn't seem worth it to me at all. Did I miss something?

Terravore seems really bad. This player used a 375 mineral colonizer ship, turned a 65% habitability planet into a 15% habitability planet and then chose to consume the world, gaining 500 minerals from it. Thats a 125 mineral net value and for this you turned a perfectly habitable Planet into trash? Thats absolutely terrible and not worth it at all. And yet in the video, it was deemed a "good decision". I'm sorry but I can't agree with this.

So in conclusion, I see lots of nerfs of Hiveminds and not many upsides, even though the whole community knows Hivemind are in dire need of some buffs. I know its very early and the game is not released, but from past experience I do not expect any further buffs for Hiveminds. If anything, Paradox rather buffs anything that uses Robots ever since 2.2.6 up until this point.

Please, if you read this paradox, I would welcome some information like:

Can you upgrade spawning pools now for more jobs?

Do Hiveminds get more Hunter-Killer Drones than before now? They always had huge issues with amenities ,which you brought up yourself after we have been talking about that for months. But what about the big deviancy issues?

What is the reason behind nerfing Hivemind's only good building: Hive Warren?

 

[Gali77]

One thing is that it allows the hive mind to have more efficient jobs. They get synapse drones from their capital and unity buildings. That means they don't need to build bureaucracy buildings which most empires need. Hive minds have greatly suffered from many but inefficient pops. Allowing one job to do the role of two should help with that.

I think its likely admin cap penalties have increased. I have not seen a single case of anyone being above the cap in paradox promos. Maybe that is just for promotion but that was just horrendously poor play in 2.5. If they want people to have to build bureaucrats they need to make admin cap punishing

 

[Turnil]

Maintenance Drones now produce 3 amenities instead of 4. This is another HUGE nerf compared to 2.2, when they initially started with 5 amenities. See in video at 24:38.

what makes me wonder how the planet still got enough amenities even when most of the pops are being purged. (52 pops)

 

[V-Metamorph]

what makes me wonder how the planet still got enough amenities even when most of the pops are being purged. (52 pops)

I think he misread the thing, there is no way an empire with such low amenity output could hold together (given how relaxed the player was with his macroing)

 

[brn4meplz]

His strategy has merit, personally I wouldn’t consume a 65%.
He missed a few glaring efficiencies like the pop blockers.

but his strategy works across a wide range of worlds.

“Creates 1-2 Lithoid Devastation blockers and 10-20 Devastation and destroys a district if any exists but will grant 300-2500 Minerals, 300-1500 Alloys or a pop.”

That’s from the wiki and that’s a pretty good return from a junk planet. Obviously the farther you extrapolate into the game/tech tree the less attractive the idea seems. But it both fits a theme, and an early game economy boost.

I think he showed off the Origin fine enough. Not everyone is going to want to see the specific numbers, and those numbers can change with time. He could have explained it a bit better but I had no major complaints.
Quill18’s video in the other hand was half talking about his empire at the creation screen and some inaccuracies on the origin/not enough information about it.

I am curious what restrictions, if any paradox placed on these videos.

 

[Tech Noir Synth]

His strategy has merit, personally I wouldn’t consume a 65%.
He missed a few glaring efficiencies like the pop blockers.

but his strategy works across a wide range of worlds.

“Creates 1-2 Lithoid Devastation blockers and 10-20 Devastation and destroys a district if any exists but will grant 300-2500 Minerals, 300-1500 Alloys or a pop.”

That’s from the wiki and that’s a pretty good return from a junk planet. Obviously the farther you extrapolate into the game/tech tree the less attractive the idea seems. But it both fits a theme, and an early game economy boost.

I think he showed off the Origin fine enough. Not everyone is going to want to see the specific numbers, and those numbers can change with time. He could have explained it a bit better but I had no major complaints.
Quill18’s video in the other hand was half talking about his empire at the creation screen and some inaccuracies on the origin/not enough information about it.

I am curious what restrictions, if any paradox placed on these videos.

Hm interesting. Thanks for the info. Yes it was good that he got quite far into the game. Quill18 did not even make it to 2206, how is that supposed to show the origin??? We didn't really see any gameplay implication of the ringworld in action.

The Remnant showcase was the best video in my opinion.

 

[Methone]

Whats the point of using 375 mineral colonizer ship to create a -50 habitabiliy effect and some blockers? Doesn't seem worth it to me at all. Did I miss something?

If I recall, those 'blockers' are the lithoid monolith blockers that give pops, no? You basically get to choose to sacrifice your Lithoid Habitability bonus on a planet for more pops right away.