HIP 769 Data

[RhaegarTelcontarTargaryen]

This is partly an ask, partly an request... I totally understand why HIP team does not plan and does not want to support 769 start date and I am fine with that. However, I upgraded from hades7 to Hydra3 today, and noticed that not only the 769 date is not supported, but many of the characters from the 769 start date are actually deleted from the history files. Now if you play with HIP that is only a cosmetic change (to me still anoyying as fuck, since you don't get that start date anyway, why even bother changing anything about it?) but the problem is ...
.. I was running a mod on my own, that included 769 for HIP SWMH mod. It was never published, because it was never a finished article, but I like to play as Sigurd Ring or Charlemagne from time to time, and I am so used to HIP mechanics, that I find it hard to adopt to anything else...
so why the fuck deleting old and not used histories (mostly for Scandinavia and norse characters, which is where I play most often 769) if they are not used anyway? Yes, Ragnar Lodbrok, Harald Wartooth might not be historical but just legendary figures, but why delete them from the history files.. if you are running a mod like this, it only creates headache to put them back, so you can actually play a 769 date.. and in original non-submoded hip it doesn't even matter since 769 is not available in the first place at all...

 

[Ese Khan]

so why the fuck deleting old and not used histories (mostly for Scandinavia and norse characters, which is where I play most often 769) if they are not used anyway? Yes, Ragnar Lodbrok, Harald Wartooth might not be historical but just legendary figures, but why delete them from the history files.. if you are running a mod like this, it only creates headache to put them back, so you can actually play a 769 date.. and in original non-submoded hip it doesn't even matter since 769 is not available in the first place at all...

I understand your frustration, but if I were you I would refrain from using expletives. If I were you, anyways.

To answer your question, I believe there are roughly two cases why vanilla characters for 769 don't exist.

Scenario #1 is when there are characters from before 867 that break dynasty trees. I've done that myself in the Middle East on a couple of occasions. I don't know when Sigurd Ring got removed, but I get the sense that it had something similar to do with it.

Scenario #2 (unconfirmed) is that, possibly, some character files didn't get updated. I have not confirmed this, but I'm just putting it out because I can't say I have checked every single character file.

*Edit*
Scenario 3 is with characters who shouldn't exist on the SWMH map because of the cutoff point. For examples, characters in Mongolia, Tibet east of k_guge, and India east of e_rajastan.

 

[RhaegarTelcontarTargaryen]

As I said, I do understand the logic, but it is making thing oh so much harder, when you are doing things like sub-mods and personalised mods...

My point being, I don't see the need to 'fix' it, given that there are many ahistorical / semi-historical / legendary / characters when they are not used in the mod itself, but removing them makes making sub-mods much harder.. IMHO better just to leave vanilla characters and titles of 769 dates as it is, because mentioned sub-mods.

I do sense that the reason behind removing Sigurd Ring for instance was the mentioned dynasty tree ( cause vanilla has Ragnar as af Munso, while HIP makes him a separate Lodbroking dynasty.. ) but given that he is unplayable in HIP .. it just makes a hell for any attempt of modding 769 date, while only changing cosmetics for HIP itself.. same goes for various other characters, mostly Norse (but not only Norse) that got their histories removed.

If I sounded offensive, I didn't want to berate and offend anyone who works on HIP, it is a great effort and mod I can't play without, but take into consideration such things as the mentioned further modding.

 

[theKing1988]

I'm the one who did most (if not all) of the deletions of Scandinavian characters, and every single one of them was because of broken family trees

 

[zijistark]

I'm the one who did most (if not all) of the deletions of Scandinavian characters, and every single one of them was because of broken family trees

Note @RhaegarTelcontarTargaryen that this isn't just a cosmetic issue. The dynasty tree completely breaks, making it unusable.

While I don't like making 769 sub-modding any harder that it has to be, it's a priority that on our actual supported start dates that we do not have things like broken dynasty trees.

I suppose that if I writing a 769 sub-mod with ported vanilla history, I'd just have to import all the characters that I was missing from vanilla. [And then somehow presumably fix the dynasty tree issues manually or something.]

 

[Gwyn ap Nud]

I have a question: what exactly causes a family tree to break? It's when two characters have the same dynasty but do not share an ancestor, right?

 

[RhaegarTelcontarTargaryen]

I have a question: what exactly causes a family tree to break? It's when two characters have the same dynasty but do not share an ancestor, right?

Yes.

I 100% support fixing the dynasty trees, that was the reason why I started writing that submod of my own in the first place, to have fixed dynasties (again, mostly Nordic, but I fixed whenever I saw something ) and to have historical unplayable characters have some fixed stats and traits ( Many Roman Emperors, Theoderic the Great, Vladimir the Great and Yaroslav the Wise, Wartooth, Bluetooth, etc,etc ) so they looked like proper characters, instead of having a bunch of 0 and 1 stats or bad traits.

But in some cases, these dynasty trees were not broken at all, but simply removed completely, as mentioned some dynasties that exist only on 769 start, or the somewhat special case of Ragnar Lodbroks father and those before him. So it makes it that much harder to make a submod, if I just have to manually put them all back in.

 

[theKing1988]

In the case of the "af Munsö" family tree, it was indeed broken. It was even reported as broken twice, if i remember correctly. I certainly scratched my head a bit, when i removed the CM characters, because i was certain i had already fixed the tree

The CM characters doesn't bother me at all, i would never remove them just to remove them. And their performance impact is minimal, because they are a relatively minor part of our character files, so performance is not a reason to remove them either, imo.

 

[ExiledKing]

I'm not trying to change the direction of the thread, but if multiple people have 769 submods that would allow an earlier than the official HIP start, why don't you guys upload them for the rest of us? If the group works together, maybe there actually would be a usable 769 bookmark for HIP. Judging from the work I've done over the past week, it would be a monumental task for someone to do this on his own, so if various aspects are already available, it would make it easier for the rest of us. That said, it will probably be a few more days, but if anyone is interested, I could have title history (including counties) of the English kingdoms going back to c. 600 AD completed. I doubt it's 100% accurate, but it's something to build on if anyone else wants to continue working on it.

 

[theKing1988]

Well we have been very open and very cooperative, with our users' work on 769, but we need communication first of all, to be able to offer any help.

And while the SWMH github repo is not open to the uninvited contributors, the EMF github repo is. So we could offer a tool for people to upload their individual work to, by creating a branch for 769. But we won't initiate this on our own, we need users to take an initiative and talk to us. It is a monumental task for us to combine your individual work, it is simply not a good idea. But if you commits your work to a github branch yourself, that would be a lot simpler.

And yes, it is a monumental task to create a bookmark, we know that better than most. Which is why we've always encouraged you to try and not do it alone, when you've approached us with 769 requests.

 

[RhaegarTelcontarTargaryen]

I'm not trying to change the direction of the thread, but if multiple people have 769 submods that would allow an earlier than the official HIP start, why don't you guys upload them for the rest of us? If the group works together, maybe there actually would be a usable 769 bookmark for HIP. Judging from the work I've done over the past week, it would be a monumental task for someone to do this on his own, so if various aspects are already available, it would make it easier for the rest of us. That said, it will probably be a few more days, but if anyone is interested, I could have title history (including counties) of the English kingdoms going back to c. 600 AD completed. I doubt it's 100% accurate, but it's something to build on if anyone else wants to continue working on it.

In my personal case, I started doing it for my own private use, with some more coat of arms, character and history edits, etc, etc, but I never uploaded anything because it was nowhere near anything finished that could be used, it is, or it was work in progress.

As for the case of af Munsö family tree, it is broken for one reason only. There are legendary kings of Sweden, from Annund to Sigurdr Ring, which were part of af Munsö dynasty, then there was Sigurdrs son Ragnarr Lodbrok, which in HIP was changed to not be part of af Munsö but of separate Lodbroking dynasty, and then there was Bjorn Ironside, who is considered historical and who is also af Munsö, and then down to Erik the Heathen in 1066 and Estrid dynasty. Changing Ragnarr from af Munsö to Lodbroking simply broke the af Munsö history tree. I know because my submod actually edited Ragnar back to his vanilla af Munsö dynasty and that fixed the tree. I believe I even talked about fixing those dynasty trees, can not remember if it was in a separate topic, but I know that it was that which actually prompted me to start making changes myself.

Some others, like Visconti, Ivaring, Knytling or Sigurdsing, required a bit more work cause there was some people who were unrelated, were part of the dynasty, but did not had any relations to anyone other. I see in the Hydra that Norse-Gaelic descendants of Ivaring on the irish south-eastern coast are made into separate Irish Ivaring dynasty, so I guess that fixes them.

Visconti I did not check yet on the newest version, but in Hades7 they were fucked up because there are actually two historical Houses of Visconti, and some members were mixed..

 

[zijistark]

I'm not trying to change the direction of the thread, but if multiple people have 769 submods that would allow an earlier than the official HIP start, why don't you guys upload them for the rest of us? If the group works together, maybe there actually would be a usable 769 bookmark for HIP. Judging from the work I've done over the past week, it would be a monumental task for someone to do this on his own, so if various aspects are already available, it would make it easier for the rest of us. That said, it will probably be a few more days, but if anyone is interested, I could have title history (including counties) of the English kingdoms going back to c. 600 AD completed. I doubt it's 100% accurate, but it's something to build on if anyone else wants to continue working on it.

If somebody could help me map all vanilla counties to 0 or more SWMH counties such that all all SWMH counties are mapped by a county in the vanilla set (not all vanilla counties need to or can be mapped -- e.g., Bengal; admittedly, to a much lesser extent this is likely true for SWMH -- thinking the Canary Islands, but I might be wrong), I could auto-generate most of the 769 history for the entire map.

My code would infer title holders and thus their families and such from the vanilla county title history mapping to SWMH county title history), and then I could fill in various historical holes where placeholders/fictional characters exist with much more interesting randomly-generated dynasties with interesting backstories in character and title history. [If the submod is intrinsically half-fantasy, then by God, we should take advantage of that and generate some really interesting families where historical options aren't available.]

Seriously, if somebody or, better yet, a group of people want to divide up the map and fill out a simple spreadsheet with entries of the form:

c_vanilla_county;c_swmh_county1;c_swmh_county2

(where in this example c_vanilla_county should be considered equivalent to both c_swmh_county1 + c_swmh_county2 for purposes of mapping)

... if this could be done, then I would do the rest and make it an official HIP sub-mod once finished. Without dragging my heels even, as I'm pretty gung-ho on the project idea.

 

[RhaegarTelcontarTargaryen]

Well, for one I am willing to volunteer and try it out. I have a job and shit, so my free time is limited, but I am willing to dedicate part of it to this, so you can count me for this.

 

[zijistark]

Well, for one I am willing to volunteer and try it out. I have a job and shit, so my free time is limited, but I am willing to dedicate part of it to this, so you can count me for this.

Well, first, let's try to get at least 2 helpers so we can all work on mapping separate parts of SWMH at once (divided by regions).

Note that it's now extremely easy to see county IDs (and province IDs, and all other title IDs for that matter) if you enter EMF developer mode, go to the Intrigue screen's Decisions menu, scroll to the bottom, and enact DEV: Reveal Title and Province IDs (if you want to reverse the process, there will be a "hide IDs" decision waiting in its place). To enter EMF developer mode, on console, run this:

event emf_debug.0

Just so everyone knows, to disable EMF developer mode you simply run the same event command above again (it toggles the dev-mode status). Why would you want to disable? Because it adds a literal fuck-ton of extra interactions with titles, characters, and settlements all prefixed with "DEV: " which are a) a bunch of clutter, b) not necessarily intended for usage by people not me (possible to screw things up), and c) for most people, perhaps a little too tempting in terms of cheating (e.g., you've got Kill / Abdicate / Claim Title / Spawn Army / End All Wars / etc. right at your finger tips, which is great when testing new code as a developer, but not something you want to see on every interaction menu when actually playing for fun).

 

[Ese Khan]

Visconti I did not check yet on the newest version, but in Hades7 they were fucked up because there are actually two historical Houses of Visconti, and some members were mixed..

This kind of information is worth filing a bug report of.

 

[RhaegarTelcontarTargaryen]

This kind of information is worth filing a bug report of.

As I said in one of the posts above, I believe I have either opened a topic about those dynastic trees, or at least talked about them in another topic, around the time when I switched from CK2+ to HIP and started playing HIP-only games. Sometime around Hades came out I think. However I might have not mentioned the specific Visconti houses, cause there were quite a few dynasties with screwed trees. I think even House of Wessex, or some of the English ones.

Speaking of minor houses, Bayeux has two members in 1066. both named Thomas, but unrelated, House Crispin has two brothers.. House Centisc, English unlanded house at 1066 too, has one dead and three live members, probably father and three sons, who are unrelated. House de Leon in Brittany are unrelated, thus creating a broken tree. I am not 100% sure and haven't researched on the internet, but judging by their birth dates, I would assume they should be four generations of fathers and sons, predating the Even mab Allan de Leon, from which the rest of the dynasty tree is working fine.

Also keep in mind that this is Hades7 since I rolled back to that, for now, so some of it might have been fixed.

 

[Lindsiria]

I'll be down for helping as well. I have wanted to start getting involved in some of the modding communities, this would be a great small start.

I also have a full time job + looking for a new developer role shortly, so I don't have loads of free time, but I definitely can do a region or two.

 

[Cormac91]

I wouldn't mind helping either. I think I suggested before (can't remember how long ago) that we could at least start by collecting data in an openly shared Google Sheet. Data could be reviewed at any time by anyone. The sheet could be formatted in a way that it would be easy to export to a CSV for scripting purposes.

What do you think? Also, if anyone has any good ideas for formatting the sheet(s) then please advise.

Edit: All this task really needs is some direction and management. I often see people willing to volunteer. And I wouldn't mind being one of those people. If I can get a better understanding of what kind of work needs to be done, I could help set up a list of tasks and people could sign up or drop out at any time. As long as the efforts are kept in one place shared amongst many, and not controlled by one or two people who ultimately abandon the project. We just need to be realistic about it.

Edit: And of course, everything I suggest here or whatever way we go about it is all down to the approval of the owners of HIP, in terms of releasing any kind of sub-mod to the public, especially if there's going to be open development involved. In any case, any work should be reviewed and approved before finalised.

Edit: I'm sure that the process of undertaking this task and the instructions have been explained multiple times in many threads, including this one. I also suggest compiling this information to a single location that can be easily referred to at any time by anyone. Be they veteran modders or never even modded a text file, the instructions should be clear and complete so that any volunteer will have a clear understanding of what needs to be done. This would go a very long way towards bringing this 769 project to fruition.

 

[Cormac91]

If somebody could help me map all vanilla counties to 0 or more SWMH counties such that all all SWMH counties are mapped by a county in the vanilla set (not all vanilla counties need to or can be mapped -- e.g., Bengal; admittedly, to a much lesser extent this is likely true for SWMH -- thinking the Canary Islands, but I might be wrong), I could auto-generate most of the 769 history for the entire map.

My code would infer title holders and thus their families and such from the vanilla county title history mapping to SWMH county title history), and then I could fill in various historical holes where placeholders/fictional characters exist with much more interesting randomly-generated dynasties with interesting backstories in character and title history. [If the submod is intrinsically half-fantasy, then by God, we should take advantage of that and generate some really interesting families where historical options aren't available.]

Seriously, if somebody or, better yet, a group of people want to divide up the map and fill out a simple spreadsheet with entries of the form:

c_vanilla_county;c_swmh_county1;c_swmh_county2

(where in this example c_vanilla_county should be considered equivalent to both c_swmh_county1 + c_swmh_county2 for purposes of mapping)

... if this could be done, then I would do the rest and make it an official HIP sub-mod once finished. Without dragging my heels even, as I'm pretty gung-ho on the project idea.

I've started a Google Sheet for this, open for anyone to edit that has this link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17kObJF6AuN5nNqpPJp5mn6YXKgAVKP-KTzOxU5uOMOM/edit#gid=0

So far it only has vanilla information. I included more than just the county ID so that data can be filtered for easier editing and reviewing, and to help avoid duplicate and conflicting data.

 

[RhaegarTelcontarTargaryen]

Well, basically, we can ask zijstark if he thinks this is enough, or something else needs to be added, in terms of data. If this is enough of data that he needs, we can divide regions and add the data for SWMH. Also, anyone know some historical resources which can be viewed for at least approximation of some 'historical' rulers around Europe at that time.