You didn't actually read that Wiki page properly, did you? It instead repeatedly describes the deployment of blocking detachments in factual terms, and cites references supporting this. Here:
You need to up your game.
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Hearts of Iron IV - 44th Development Diary - 12th of February 2016
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You didn't actually read that Wiki page properly, did you? It instead repeatedly describes the deployment of blocking detachments in factual terms, and cites references supporting this. Here:
You need to up your game.
This is an interesting, if somewhat heated, discussion but may be drifting a little away from partisans and the like 
. Fortunately mods aren't authorised to use machine guns to keep threads on topic (or I think we'd all be in a fair bit of trouble!)
On topic, down the track (ie, DLC or the like) and as others have suggested more or less, I'd love to see this system expanded to include both actual uprisings (rarely, with the risk being clearly telegraphed and stoppable if the occupying power has the manpower) and some link between resistance/uprisings and GiEs (or however it would work best in a HoI4 sense), with perhaps spontaneous uprisings potentially forming their own Government (Yugoslavia) or being linked to their Government (Soviets)/GiE (France), rather than being a 'generic rebel'. That way you could have things like the Yugoslav and French rebels getting equipment from the UK, for example, and the Soviet rebels perhaps being controlled by the USSR directly.
. Fortunately mods aren't authorised to use machine guns to keep threads on topic (or I think we'd all be in a fair bit of trouble!)On topic, down the track (ie, DLC or the like) and as others have suggested more or less, I'd love to see this system expanded to include both actual uprisings (rarely, with the risk being clearly telegraphed and stoppable if the occupying power has the manpower) and some link between resistance/uprisings and GiEs (or however it would work best in a HoI4 sense), with perhaps spontaneous uprisings potentially forming their own Government (Yugoslavia) or being linked to their Government (Soviets)/GiE (France), rather than being a 'generic rebel'. That way you could have things like the Yugoslav and French rebels getting equipment from the UK, for example, and the Soviet rebels perhaps being controlled by the USSR directly.
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Those numbers don't seem to add up, wikipedia also lists 4,261 V1s total shot down of 30k built. Another points to "only" 25% hitting their targets, impossible if 80% are shot down. According to the assessment 8000 V1s were launched at London and about 1000 shot down by fighters at the cost of 351 allied fighters. ( it was extremely dangerous to get close enough to maximum speed and shoot down basically a big flying bomb ). That's only 12.5% interception rate by fighter, and a fighter lost for every 3 V1s successfully downed.
The interesting thing is that a fighter cost at least 20 times more then a V1 to produce, which means the more fighters they send up to engage them the better for the Germans, because it is actually helping Germany win the Industrial war since intercepting V1 with fighters is not cost effective ( it cost the allies 7 times more then it cost the axis, not taking into account the loss of valuable fighter pilots ).
Also remember that those 45000 fighter sorties made against V1s are basically the same amount of sorties NOT made escorting strategic bombers or using fighter bombers offensively to strike at German tanks, infantry and installations.
Barrage balloons don't seem to have been that effective at all, 2000 balloons stopping less then 3% of all V1s.
AA also was problematic and required both new installations and new technology. The standard AA guns could not traverse fast enough and light AA lacked the range. With expensive radar directed fast traversing AA installations firing advanced proximity fuzed shells it was possible to make them accurate enough though. Initially 2500 shells were needed per V1 shot down, and the cost of all these advanced shells was actually 60 times higher then the cheap V1 bombs they shot down! After finetuning and further development of the AA system this could be brought down to just an average of 100 shells, and with cost reductions to the Proximity fuze shells a year later in 1945 it would be possible to shoot down V1s for about 1:1 cost in expended ammunition ( but by that time the Germans had stopped using them and moved on to V2s long ago).
In the end the conclusion is that no matter the method of destroying them that the allies tried out, the V1s were so cheap to produce that it was a loss for the Allies and the planes or shells expended in their destruction cost more then the V1s actually destroyed.
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And I need you to start checking the source of your information. Blocking detachments were issued weapons just like any other unit in case they need to use them in battle. Yet they were placed BEHIND the front line to prevent unauthorized retreating FROM the front line. People got arrested and some were sent to penal battalions. They were not executing their own troops with machine guns on the front line for crying out loud. What kind of pseudo history is that?
Report to Beria by the end of 1941:
"From the beginning of the war to October 10, 1941 special detachments of the NKVD and blocking detachments of the NKVD arrested 657,364 troops who abandoned their units and fled from the front. Of those arrested, 25,878 people were detained, the rest 632,486 people were formed into army unints and sent again to the front.
Among those arrested:
Spies - 1505;
saboteurs - 308;
traitors - 2621;
cowards and alarmists - 2643;
provocative rumour mongers - 3987;
others - 4371.
Total - 25,878.
By order of the special departments and the verdict of the military tribunals 10,201 people were executed."
Again, what machinegun executions on the front line? Those units were practically doing police work behind the front.
But I guess someone really likes Enemy at the gates and Company of Heroes 2, both of them a laughing point in the east.
Look here, if the numbers do not add up in a single Wiki article that you yourself used, maybe you should not have lead with it as an argument? I was not there to shoot V1 down, I do not know. But it is obvious that there are highly contradicting numbers in an article - from only one hitting target, out of 45 - that gives it efficiency of just above 2%, or almost 98% fail, to general 80% fail rate overall, to your claim of just above 12% fail rate. That is not just a few percent, that is a major difference.
The very end of the assessment notes that "statistic has been the subject of dispute". And overall, you have several different claims in each part of the article. You just chose the ones that help you the most with what you are saying. And that is the reason I used the very same info you provided to point out that nothing makes sense.
Was it 12%? 80% that also is stated there? Or even 98% for some missions, also stated there, I doubt you or I can figure out. Maybe non if is true and it was somewhere in the middle.
And when that thing happens, the article contradicts itself several times, you throw it out of the window and look elsewhere. Does not matter what part of you like or not - when you have contradiction, it is a nope. And you can look at the general conduct of war. V1 was a simple cruise missile that was used as it was intended to be used (this I say regarding to your claim that they were not used in the right way and if they had been then effect would be better). Germans knew about army massing in south England as recon missions were flown. And Germans did know that invasion was imminent (everyone knew that at the time). It was not a question of are there any troops and where are they massed but when and where will they attack. The fact that they were not bombed (and V1 was used as a tactical weapon throughout the last two years) points out it was not possible to do so in any significant way.
Allies had to make sure that German knew that they were massing and preparing. Otherwise the whole Mincemeat would be for nothing. If Germans discovered the plans yet did not notice any build up of the forces, they would assume those were not true. And yes, Allies did build decoys closer to Dover, while the army massed further west, but even those decoys were not attacked by a large group of V1 cruise missiles.
But never mind all that, we are going way of topic. My original point that you replied on that V2 was did not have nearly enough impact on war but it is in the game, while partisans did, and they are NOT in the game. Why and how we ended up talking about V1 and its effectiveness I do not know and it does not really matter.
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Maybe because the first V1 landed in London a week after the first Allied troops had already landed in Normandy
No one claimed 12% for total losses. You are mixing statistics for very different things here.
Yes there are some contradictions, but if the stats that are available point to a weapon system inflicting 10 times more cost on your enemy, it's an effective weapon system and even major contradictions or discrepancies are not likely to change the result or statistics enough to make it an ineffective one.
We know with good accuracy what a V1 cost, we know with good accuracy what a british fighter cost and we know with good accuracy what a Proxy fuze AA shell cost. We also know with decent accuracy how many of each were lost in the fight, so we can make a good estimate as to the effectiveness of the weapon system and the countermeasures used against it.
Partisans and their impact appear to be in the game... Didn't you even read the Dev diary?
Anyways I fully agree and support Paradox when it comes to the rule of cool. If it's cool ( like super-heavy Battleships, super-heavy tanks or rockets ) it goes in the game anyways despite not being effective historically
Partisans running around in big division sized units simply didn't happen in reality, so there is no need for it in the game really.
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Maybe because the first V1 landed in London a week after the first Allied troops had already landed in Normandy
So what was all that "not used as they should have been" thing?
What point of it does not really mater as statistic seems to be generally contradictory here did you not understand? Yes, you can go into the analysis of the weapon itself and make an assumption of its effectiveness - but then do not quote statistics that you know is bad.
I did not make up 80% and 98% fail rate - I have read it in the very article you yourself have sent me. So if you saw statistics was bonkers, why did you quote it in the first place as an argument? Just quoted you the same article you have sent, you can do what ever you want with it. If I were you I would just skip statistics all together and focus on the analysis of the weapon itself.
Just as I did with V2 instead of going for statistics data.
And again it is clear that westerners know nothing about east, including history. In tiny Yugoslavia it did happen, to the point where Germans and Italians had to divert around 130.000 troops and hundreds of aircraft for a single operation of destroying several partisan divisions. Yes, divisions. During the Case White, three partisan divisions were, as you say, running around. In Case Black, 4 divisions and two brigades. By the end of 1943 there were 20 divisions "running around" Yugoslavia.
I won't even talk about Soviet partisan formations that dwarf even Yugoslav ones.
As I said in the first comment, just because it was not the case in the West, it does not mean it did not happen in the East. But I get the western bias, it is a normal thing. Just do not get all angry and defensive when you get called on it, accept that you do know anything about it (and if you want to know - ask), and move on. Saying that something simply did not happen in reality just because you don't know about it - not cool mate, not cool. But that became a general practice here I guess.
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You have something to add to the fact of the existence of partisan divisions in Yugoslavia, that was the point of talk between Alex and me and included the words you quoted?
You can but after your fantasized machinegun executions of soldiers, I doubt that your knowledge of history is relevant in this matter.
Edit: And please do not spam with pointless comments.
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Many people talk of "improvement", but they really just go back to the old HOI2 system. Hardly an "improvement", but rather they use a system they know was working because they are short on time.
I can live with it, maybe they will bring a real improvement later in an expansion/DLC. Don't forget that the partisans system in HOI3 only appeared with the second expansion For the Motherland.
As many people suggested, I would like a system mixing both abstracted maluses and the limited possibility of significant uprisings.
You are the one that wrote they were "not used as they should have been" not me.
I wrote the following...
If you read again what I wrote you realize that I based my argument and analysis of known facts ( like costs of units ) and things that are well known and were neither "bonkers" nor "contradictory" like units lost.
No there were not 20 divisions of partisans running around Yugoslavia. 20 real Army divisions in HoI games strategic scale represent something totally different then a ragtag band of partisans. 20 REAL army divisions represent around 30% of the forces the entire United States Army and Marines deployed in WW2 to defeat Japan and do the heavy lifting in liberating western Europe. It represents coordination, radio, hierarchy, trained leadership and men, heavy weapons, vehicle and logistical support among many other things, neither of which the partisans had access to.
Germany at the time had around 8 million soldiers in their armed forces, so 130000 troops if we assume half were Germans and half Italians represent not even 1% of their total forces. That is some scary Partisans that need the attention of 2 out of Germany's 200 divisions. It actually looks like more then 2 divisions might be needed to cover the area of Yugoslavia in the DD and from screenshots for HoI4.
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And all easterners, beginning with you, are clearly exceptionally knowledgeable about both east and west and never have the slightest bias...We both have misconceptions and bias.
I sometimes do agree with some of the things you say when you bring forward some less well known or misunderstood facts. It's both good and fair to make us reconsider what we take for granted.
But not when you drift toward revisionism or an ideological version of history, which you too often end doing, you lose us and some of your credibility doing so.
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One of the most effective means of countering the V1 threat that the british had was by the use of spies. The Germans thought they had an extensive network of spies in Britain but the reality was that every single one of them was "controlled" by Britain.
Britain used this spy network to report only the VI strikes that overshot London. They were careful to report only genuine strikes that aerial recon would confirm. The germans believed them and shortened the range. End result........ the majority of V1's began to fall short of london.
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When talking about the effective percentage of V1s, it is important to define what it means to be effective. @Alex_brunius has already stated the costs very clearly for the V1s and their counter measures. If having a V1 simply make it across the channel is enough to incur a large enough response in AA and fighter cover, then that could be deemed effective. If it means hitting the target, then the threshold for effective is much higher. If spies caused the V1s to miss their targets and thus be deemed ineffective, (paraphrasing @scroggin here) then it doesn't necessarily mean the V1 is ineffective but that the overall setup they were used in that relied on spies for spotting, was ineffective.
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OK, I guess someone needs a history lesson. Here it goes.
1. Proleterska Divizija (1st Proletariat division)
By the end of 1944 it had 12.367 men, distributed in 5 brigades including an artillery brigade.
2. Proleterska Divizija (2nd Proletariat Division)
By the end of 1944 it had 9.886 men, by the end of the war it had 10.142 men, distributed in 3 brigades. Also had the artillery brigade.
3. Udarna Divizija (3rd Shock Division)
By the end of 1944 it was engaged in heavy fighting and had only around 5.000 men. From weapons, 330 machineguns (usually German MG), several batteries of artillery, pack artillery and anti-tank guns.
4. Krajiška Divizija (4th Kraina Division)
By October 1944 it had 5.538 men, 65 artillery pieces (light and heavy), 288 machine guns and 8 anti-tank rifles.
5. Krajiška Divizija (5th Kraina DIvision)
Before the arrival of the Red Army and liberation of Belgrade, division had more than 5.000 soldiers and 3 artillery batteries.
6. Lička Divizija (6th Lika DIvision)
By September 1944 it had 5.500 soldiers. It also had an artillery brigade divided into 12 batteries and 2 HQ batteries. This included 6 anti-tank batteries with 24 anti-tank guns (45mm and 76mm), 3 howitzer batteries with 120mm guns and 3 mountain artillery batteries with 75mm guns. 2 HQ batteries were: 1 mixed 76mm/122mm battery, 1 light anti-air battery 25mm.
7. Banijska Divizija (7th Bania Division, later it gained Shock status)
By 1943, after heavy fighting in operations White and Black, the division had 4.100 soldiers, I could not find right now how many where there for the exact division before that.
And I could go on and on.
All divisions (55 by the end of the war) were organized in 16 corps. By July 1944 there were 12 full corps.
After the liberation of Belgrade, it they were all further organized into 4 armies.
By 1942 partisans had 2 airplanes (I know, not visible in the game, but just pointing it out) and by 1944 it had a full air division. 109 officers, 250 NCO and 625 soldiers. It included 110 airplanes, radio detachment, pilot training detachment and mobile repair shop. During the war, partisans made their own bombs for airplanes from piping 100mm and explosive inside, designed by engineer Mile Ljubičić and produced in Ljubija mines in western Bosnia. In March 1944 UK supplied 2 full squadrons of Spitfires and Hurricanes. Partisan airforce ended the war with 3 air divisions. In Soviet Union partisans constructed their own airports i the middle of the marshland.
Officers came from pre-war officer cadre, Spanish civil war veterans, Soviet and domestic officer schools.
It had:
2 Lieutenant Generals (both pre-war colonels of Yugoslav Royal Army)
11 Major Generals (all pre-war officers from rank of captain to colonel)
25 Colonels (most of them Majors and Captains of Royal Army before the war)
67 Lieutenant Colonels
189 Majors
459 Captains
1.124 Lieutenants
880 Second Lieutenants (fresh cadets from partisan schools, 2 years training)
And that was the number of officers in 1943.
Before the arrival of Red Army in October 1944, partisans were supplied with weapons from pre-war depots, Allied drops (included explosives, radio equipment, uniforms, heavy guns and so forth so yes, they had access to all of that) and German depots (captured equipment). Uniforms were either pre-war uniforms of the Royal Army or new ones supplied by the Allies. So it was not some bunch of idiots in rags shooting a few Germans here and there.
It was an organized top-down army, supplied with weapons, ammo, radio (from the beginning several university professors joined and provided aid in radio manufacture, encryption and decryption), medicine (had several filed hospitals). Also, German and Italian light tanks and armored cars. It had its own manufacturing plants for most of the equipment.
In just two months of 1941 (that is the very beginning for you), Partisan weapons factory produced
21.000 rifles
2.700.000 rifle bullets
90.000 pistol ammo
20.000 anti-armor ammo
300 rifle mounted grenades
30.000 hand grenades
300 machine guns
3 artillery pieces
5.000 artillery shells
2.000 land mines
3.000 Molotov cocktails (does not require special equipment, but does require gas and it was in the list so I added it here)
And that my friend is communist resistance. There was also a Royalist one.
By mid 1944 it had 74 brigades, organized into 11 divisions + independent brigades, those further organized into 3 corps. Officers included pre-war Royal army Officers lead by Colonel, later General Mihailović. Other officers included everything from the rank of General to Second Lieutenant of the Royal army. Unlike communist movement, it had no large scale officer school. Additional officers were produced by their service in the field by the decree of pre-war Royal Army General Staff.
The core of the army was specially trained and equipped members of the Stormtrooper battalions made before the war that were tasked to conduct guerrilla war behind the enemy lines. They had specially made equipment, like M24ČK rifles that were issued only to them and had a larger assortment of mobile anti-armor weapons. During the war, they used German, Italian, Yugoslav and UK weapons. UK supplied them regularly up until mid-end 1943 with radios, medicine, weapons, ammo, uniforms. All that equipment was payed by Yugoslav Government in Exile by its gold reserves (nothing is for free). In 1942 alone they got by air drop:
43 artillery pieces
860 shells for them
353 machine guns
3376 rifles and pistols
104 anti-tank rifles
8.728 hand grenades
1.029.450 small arms ammo
2.368kg of explosives
Most of the heavy weapons early on were things hidden during the April War and recovered later. Standard issued on May 27th 1941 was, on 560 man (standard size of Storm battalions, later used as core size for Royal resistance battalions as well): 5-10 mortars, 15-30 machine guns. It meant 60-120 heavy equipment personnel per battalion and the rest were ordinary soldiers. Those battalions formed up brigades, brigades formed divisions and division formed corps.
And here are some pictures of those "rag-tag band of roaming partisans"
Royalist resistance:
Sorry, some were big formats.
And communist resistance:
And some standardized equipment in 1942 and 1944:
And now I dare you to repeat again what you said about rag tag band running around. The communist resistance had by the war end 800.000 troops, Royalist one around 70.000 at its peak in 1943. Yup, just some rag-tag band of bandits and saboteurs I guess.
"That is some scary Partisans that need the attention of 2 out of Germany's 200 divisions." 130.000 soldiers is 2 divisions for you? Sorry, never heard of 65.000 strong division. But that is just me. In mid 1943 Germany had 11 division stationed in Yugoslavia, plus Croatian formations. In total around 300.000 soldiers. By mid 1944 Germany had to field 400.000 troops in order to stop the resistance movements. Compare that to 200.000 soldiers for the Ardennes offensive and you will get the real picture of how scary were those partisans.
You can also find a detailed history of the resistance in Osprey's book "Tito's partisans". It has details about equipment, training of troops and officers, pictures throughout the war and day do day lives of those troops, their logistics system and so on.
Please, do not claim something that you know nothing about.
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It would make sense for partisans to pop up on the map near front lines if they have the chance, and disappear again if they sense a force too strong for them to handle is advancing.
I never claimed to know about western conduct of war. I know general history, not in detail - and you do not see me joining in the debates that include that. I know my limitations. But is not my fault that history of the east is not thought in western schools at all. I get guys here talking about ragtag band of partisans and 2 German division needed to suppress them. And they actually try to prove to me that it is the truth. Yet I have documents, pictures, books that say otherwise.
800.000 strong, equipped, with full trained officer corps, manufacture, logistics and radio systems, heavy weapons, officer schools, airforce, armored support - a ragtag band of partisans?!
And then someone has the nerve to tell me that I am biased? On what grounds? I dare anyone to disprove anything of the things I have said.
If someone wants to discuss this, I expect some standards. People who make up stories and take Hollywood movies and Canadian video games as history learning material, I do not want to waste my time with.
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Are we talking about HOI3 or HOI4? Because in HOI3, Cavalry does not have higher suppression than regular infantry.
I checked, and both CAV and INF have suppression values of 1 in TFH. GAR has suppression of 2, Waffen-SS has a value of 3, and MP has a value of 5.
It was used to hunt partisans and rebels because it's cheaper than MOT, uses no fuel, and can move faster than INF.
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HOI4. A cavalry battallion has 5 in suppression according to the WWW videos.