HAIDA 1.18 North American natives WC on very hard mode AAR no exploits

[Frogbait]

How is this now decided when you can build ships? Is it institutions or is it still government?

How does this affect your vassals/PU's? Don't they get massive AE from your conquests in Europe reducing their opinion a lot, or does the 'grant land' mechanic negates that penalty?

When you lose primitive status aka when you reform your religion.

Vassals I don't think have every gotten AE from their overlord and PUs had a bug for a long time that they would get AE from their overlord conquering, however this was fixed a few patches back iirc.

@atwix

But, but, muh diplo. Can't move trade capital! Proceeds to spend 400 dip on a peace deal . I was also forgetting during the initial discussion that you had 50 years before integrating, so that is 50 years worth of sparing 200 diplo

 

[atwix]

How is this now decided when you can build ships? Is it institutions or is it still government?

you can build ships after you reform government. Any ship. But as you well know, I usually only build attack fleets late game. Land is where it's at.

So how did this happen?

coalition formed after I bluntly destroyed the pope. Up until admin efficiency 3, I was careful with AE in HRE. 'Full throttle' means you go all the way, and stomp a coalition in the face.

Basically, you grow more powerful then any coalition can be, in a controlled manner. If you let this out of hand, you lose..

The coalition in HRE was manageable.

Now those pixels are hurting my eyes, how old is that ?

Full throttle is a DOS game from the nineties. 1995 to be precise.

Suffice to say: you weren't born yet.

Hmmm.... I doth think you'll get a one-tag, but defiantly WC (but then again, it's atwix were talking about) Great chapter, the Bikers/Cavalry of Haida are ripping through europe.

Hopefully Asia next.

Nah, one tag is out.

Full throttle was a pretty amusing adventure game back in the day. "Not with my box of bunnies" indeed.

lol, can't believe you also remember that..

Spoiler

the Corley Bunny Value Pack. If you try to use it on anything but the minefield, you get "Not with my box of bunnies.", which is a pretty funny quote out of context. I mean, the person hearing it has to sit there and imagine why you would have a box full of bunnies in the first place.

Anyway, don't forget you *can* use client states. You can make new ones as long as they border another, and you can transfer occupation to get them land in the old world. If you're going on a late game tear, having a few of them can be really helpful.

Hmm. I think releasing big annexed nations might be better in some areas, as I'd need a direct link from capital in Europe to the client state in Asia.

That said, I don't think I will move the capital. Hence, client states in Asia are out.

@atwix

But, but, muh diplo. Can't move trade capital! Proceeds to spend 400 dip on a peace deal . I was also forgetting during the initial discussion that you had 50 years before integrating, so that is 50 years worth of sparing 200 diplo

As Frogbait caught me: I like keeping my capitals in America. For roleplaying reasons. Call me weird

@Frogbait: you passed my test!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hmm. I think releasing big annexed nations might be better in some areas, as I'd need a direct link from capital in Europe to the client state in Asia.

I think you are overestimating the difficulty of doing this quite a lot. You don't have to move any capitals, though your first and only new world client state (all rest will be made in old world) will likely move its own capital to old world fast.

- You make 1 3 development client state in new world.
- Transfer occupation of something in old world to this nation. At DIP 23 the range is huge, so if you give it something in eastern SA it can probably reach India or some such. Give it that province.
- You can now add provinces to this client state like any other vassal...OR make new client states next to it, with their capital right in Europe or Asia. It just has to be next to an existing client state. If you give a new world client state an old world province you can make as many extra old-world client states as you want, so long as it borders ANY client state anywhere.

Client states *always* have full admin and humanist plus an extra -10% core cost NI, so while you will occasionally have better alternatives based on region they are quite stout and having consistent access to them is probably worth the cost of kicking one out of a tiny development province you snag off a CN at some point.

 

[atwix]

I think you are overestimating the difficulty of doing this quite a lot. You don't have to move any capitals, though your first and only new world client state (all rest will be made in old world) will likely move its own capital to old world fast.

- You make 1 3 development client state in new world.
- Transfer occupation of something in old world to this nation. At DIP 23 the range is huge, so if you give it something in eastern SA it can probably reach India or some such. Give it that province.
- You can now add provinces to this client state like any other vassal...OR make new client states next to it, with their capital right in Europe or Asia. It just has to be next to an existing client state. If you give a new world client state an old world province you can make as many extra old-world client states as you want, so long as it borders ANY client state anywhere.

heh. Never thought of that.

Still, they have to CORE it, even though they get 2x monarch points. If I full annex a nation worth 160% warscore on admin efficiency 3 worth several hundred % overextension, and then release them...

Wouldn't that be more efficient?

India has enlightment already almost anywhere, so I can release whatever I want..

I'll give it some thought.

 

[bbqftw]

Depends on how much you intend on feeding the vassal, since client states are actually adapted to absorbing large amounts of clay, and non administrative vassals without RCC ideas can be really frustrating

 

[atwix]

Depends on how much you intend on feeding the vassal, since client states are actually adapted to absorbing large amounts of clay, and non administrative vassals without RCC ideas can be really frustrating

fair point.

Still, theres decades left. If I release a 140-160% warscore nation, and then spoon feed them 100% provinces on admin efficiency 3..

Still sounds more effective to me.

They will still core it all, and go 0% overextension relatively fast...

I tend to follow my gut feeling, so please don't be mad if I don't make client states folks

Then again, making white/black flag "Panda land" client state in MING does sound tempting.

 

[Frogbait]

fair point.

Still, theres decades left. If I release a 140-160% warscore nation, and then spoon feed them 100% provinces on admin efficiency 3..

Still sounds more effective to me.

They will still core it all, and go 0% overextension relatively fast...

I tend to follow my gut feeling, so please don't be mad if I don't make client states folks

Then again, making white/black flag "Panda land" client state in MING does sound tempting.

To be fair, I like having my religion go across the globe too much to advocate for going Client state route

But client states do have that added ability to be released for whatever culture you want once you use TMIT's trick for other continent Client States.

 

[atwix]

But client states do have that added ability to be released for whatever culture you want once you use TMIT's trick for other continent Client States.

it sounds powerful when used from dip tech 23 normal year..

Never really delved into client states, but now I get why @TheMeInTeam always said client states are underestimated in power.

That said, THIS lategame, it might be too late to get full benefit from it.

But, that is just my gut feeling..

I like theorycrafting on this topic though

 

[Spikearoonie]

Still, they have to CORE it, even though they get 2x monarch points. If I full annex a nation worth 160% warscore on admin efficiency 3 worth several hundred % overextension, and then release them...

So this is confusing me. Are you saying that they get double monarch points each month? If so isn't this seriously OP?

 

[Threshold]

So this is confusing me. Are you saying that they get double monarch points each month? If so isn't this seriously OP?

They start with two months worth of points, when you create them. They do not get double points, per month.

 

[Spikearoonie]

They start with two months worth of points, when you create them. They do not get double points, per month.

Ah Thanks

 

[blitzthedragon]

Who would have thought that a humble little fishing tribe would come to conquer the world? BIRCH BARK CANOES FOR ALL!

 

[atwix]

So this is confusing me. Are you saying that they get double monarch points each month? If so isn't this seriously OP?

They start with two months worth of points, when you create them. They do not get double points, per month.

sorry for the confusion

Who would have thought that a humble little fishing tribe would come to conquer the world? BIRCH BARK CANOES FOR ALL!

True. I honestly never thought at the start of this campaign that I'd be going for a world conquest in 18th century.

Using BIRCH BARK THREEDECKERS at that!

 

[Anonomoosle]

*replace british flag with Haida one in your head *

 

[atwix]

I wish to say something before chapter 13.

Important tip: The best and easiest way to WC with a European capital nation after 1750 is to go revolutionary empire government form.



To do this, read this guide.



https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?l=dutch&id=471022685

If you do all this, you end up as revolutionary republic, and this triggers the bonuses from being 'revolution target'.

First bonus: Revolution target



+10% National manpower modifier --> nice!



+10% Morale of armies --> nice!



−0.15 Monthly war exhaustion -->CRAZY



−50% Unjustified demands --> nice!



−50% Land maintenance modifier --> seriously overpowered, it allows for 0.01 ducat reguiments if you stack this with other land maintenance bonuses



−50% Naval maintenance modifier --> 500 heavy ships and no loans achievement, anyone?



+40% Land force limit modifier --> seriously overpowered..



+40% Naval force limit modifier --> make 500+ frigates maybe?



−100 Yearly papal influence --> DRAT.

Second bonus: "spread the revolution" casus belli

which reduces war score acquisition cost by 50% and reduces diplomatic acquisition cost to 0. It also allows you to convert enemies to your religion even if it is considered heathen.

50% province province warcost is CRAZY, comparable to the 'unify china cb'. Combine this with administrative efficiency 3 and diplomatic idea group (extra -20% province warcost), and it might be possible to annex more then 200% province warscore in ONE war

Third bonus: reduced tech cost.

being a revolutionary republic allows you to pass the "cult of reason decision" which will decrease technology cost by 40% for an average of 12 months.

This decision can be used to spike up your technology, especially if stacked with neighbor bonuses, diplomatic investments modifier and abolish slavery modifier. If done properly, you can propel your diplomatic technology forward by 10 technologies or more. Therefore, If you are planning to go revolutionary, you can feel free to either invest your diplomatic points into development or culture conversion. However you need to be at stability -1 to be eligible to pass the decision. Remember that stability hits are significantly more costly as a republic. Likewise, keep in mind that the 12-months MTTH event that removes the cult of reason modifier gives 1 stability when assessing whether or not a disaster might trigger.

Finally, the revolutionary target cannot be the defender of the faith of any religion. Thus, it is a great way of losing the modifier in a situation where you probably have no longer need of it.

Fourth bonus: great government bonuses.


Revolutionary Republic

• +2 Tolerance of heretics
• +10% Morale of armies
• -0.20 Monthly autonomy change
• +5 States

Revolutionary propaganda gives the armies defending the revolution strong morale and the principle that everyone is equal gives strong leadership.

• The Revolutionary republic is available to any country that has its capital in Europe and if unique event rebels control the capital.
• It has factions system
• Election cycle: 4 years.
• Fixed rank: Empire

Anyhow, the idea then is to switch to revolutionary EMPIRE, to get the +25% national manpower bonus instead of the tolerance of heretics the revolutionary republic gives.

Revolutionary Empire

• +10% Morale of armies
• +25% National manpower modifier
• -0.20 Monthly autonomy change
• +5 States

The Revolutionary Empire is a slightly more conservative form of government with a single ruler ruling with reference a chamber of deputies. The government can mobilize a large amount of manpower and every soldier carries a marshal's baton in his backpack.

• To get this government type, you need to bring your republican tradition to 0 with the Revolutionary Republic government type by means other than re-electing your current ruler. Re-electing your current ruler while your republican tradition is below 20 will change your government to a republican dictatorship.
• Fixed rank: Empire

Combine the government form bonuses together with the 'revolution target' bonuses and together with the 50% province warscore cost CB, and you can steamroll the world.

......


Ok, now you know about revolutionary governments.



Why do I bring this up?

In my view this entire mechanic is seriously overpowered; it breaks the game like mad with its overpowered mechanics.

Lategame conquest has already been hilariously easy with administrative efficiency, and then they installed this on top. Bit.. overpowered

Note that this is MY opinion, feel free to disagree. It surely made world conquest trivial, compared to the times before 1.7 Art of War DLC.


Why do I say all this?

Because I wanted to explain why I did NOT move capital to Europe, and why I will NOT become a revolutionary empire in this AAR, or in any AAR.

It just feels plain wrong in my eyes, and too 'easy'.

Haida will stay absolute monarchy until the end, even it seriously hampers my chances of world conquest.

I want to try it the HARD way, like in all my other AAR

Hope I won't regret it here



Chapter 13: the meat grinder

The first war with the Ottomans. Oh boy

 

[atwix]

The American natives spread themselves nicely in the Balkan area.

It doesn't take long before the first Ottoman attack. Their army composition is bit weird though
I suppose Süleyman III really likes artillery on the front row.

First blood!

Süleyman III got routed.

I wish to note that only SOME forts in the Ottoman territory are level 6. The interior ones are still level 2.

Remark: Nations with big forcelimits never seem to focus on upgrading their forts, unless they have HUGE income..

Seen this Ottoman AI behaviour in Jangladesh AAR regarding the Ottomans, and now here also..

Most of the border forts are level 6, so I suppose the situation has improved AI smartness wise

+5 siege roll bonus artillery (20k per level 6 fort +1k) was left on the border forts, and Haida had to repel the attacks of the very hard Ottomans..

This time, they throw 130k at us!

130k… infantry

Hmm, Süleyman really has weird tactics.

Next time, wait for your infantry when attacking with the artillery..

Next time, wait for your artillery when attacking with the infantry..

It might help to win

D'OH. Forgot to assign a general

Well, we can win without so it seems.

This time, the Ottoman infantry got routed.

The Ottoman empire is BIG. After Haida sieged down the border forts, troops marched for the interior forts.

Including FRANCE.

Most of the troops of the Ottomans keep throwing themselves at us around the capital of Constantinople though..

Haida was able to travel to Constantinople, after the fort in Selanik fell.

This allowed to seal off the Bosporus with like 150k troops near their capital, and to go hunter/killer mode in all Ottoman territory north of the Bosporus

Haida has ordered a total of 50 threedeckers, to seal off the Bosporus, and to be able to CROSS it.

But, I didn't build them in time for this Ottoman war. They were still being produced..

Hence why I moved ALL spare troops around the Black Sea, towards Georgia.

The Ottomans saw this also, and reacted by sending troops to that region also.

100k troops are in the area already, protecting the forts.

The Ottomans attacked, but France protected our stack.

France proceeded to the fort, and laid siege to it.

France stirred up a hornet's nest by doing so.

The Ottomans moved their ENTIRE might against us, around Georgia

The capital of the Ottomans fell, and the ticking warscore started.

I paused for a while here. The Ottomans were already engaging the French.

The Haida decided to attack the Ottoman stack north of France, because if NOT, an Ottoman doomstack might form..

Haida beats the Ottoman army one on one..

France however got routed all the way back to Paris.

The problem with 'guiding' France is the size of its stacks. If you let them attach to a 1k stack and lead them around, they tend to STOP doing so, due to the stack taking attrition due to its sheer size. Only excessive micro allows to keep them attached, which i didn't feel like doing for once. Bad memories regarding that, from my Ryukyu AAR.

I realized I had to do this all myself, and started to recruit a LOAD of mercenaries around Georgia.

Showing direction of troops, to pinpoint the problem here.

The Ottomans have TWO bottleneck mountain forts here. Haida can't even reach the fort in Azerbeidjan, before the fort near the Caspian sea is sieged down.

Erzurum. You look like trouble

Stacks were positioned where able, in all the mountainous provinces around Georgia.

Uh oh. Trouble

What followed was eh.. disturbing to watch

Süleyman III was really angry..

25k Enemy reinforcements joined the battle.

More then 100k enemy reinforcements joined the battle.

EHHH..

HOLD THE LINE!

"The Ottoman morale looks bad. Seems we got this boys!"

80k enemy reinforcements joined the battle.

*GULP*

 

[atwix]

60k enemy reinforcements joined the battle.

"Oh my god…" said the Haida general.

Things started to look grim for the Haida army

..but reinforcements arrived. On both sides though.

Haida army +100k, Ottoman army +50k or so.

"The entire goddamn Ottoman army is upon us!" the Haida general shouted..

The Ottoman army had more then 400k units in this fight!

On 1 october 1766, the Ottoman Padishah DIED to artillery fire, while giving commands to his generals. An Ottoman general took over the lead of the Ottoman army!

The enemy army saw their Padishah fall in battle, and were in disarray..

3 weeks later, the fight was STILL ongoing.

But finally, the Ottoman general saw the futility of his attempts, and ordered a full retreat..

"WHEW!" the Haida general said.

"Now THAT was a fight I won't forget easily!"

The fight in the meat grinder of Erzurum had lasted almost 4 months.

FOUR. MONTHS.

In the following months, the Ottomans kept throwing their armies at us, in the meat grinder of Erzurum.

The reinforcement stacks in the neighbouring provinces got shift consolidated and force marched to reinforce the battle right after, leaving tons of 0 merc regiments behind.

The low morale stack on the fort itself incites all stacks to attack immediately, rather then to wait and to regroup.

Which suited the Haida fine..

The Ottomans did a regroup, and did a joint attack on Erzurum once more..

This is TENSE

More and more and MORE mercenaries were recruited around Georgia, and thrown into the meat grinder..

Due to all the fuss around the mountain fort of Erzurum, I TOTALLY forgot about the fleet I had ordered

It set sail, right when the French fleet also decided it was good idea to move into the Mediterranean. Better late then never, I suppose. Naval AI

The way was now open for those 120+k troops to cross the Bosporus, and to lay siege to the forts beyond.

The entire situation here forced Haida to merc up to the limit and to fill their force limit completely

An overview of the Ottoman front.

The fort in Shirvan had fallen, allowing Haida to invade from the east.

The way into the Ottoman heartland now laid open..

An overview of Europe. England is battered. Cleves is the only nation left in the HRE. Then there are some other small nations left and right. Georgia is surrounded by the Ottomans!

Novgorod has been a nice vassal, and like Saxe-Lauenburg, they have converted almost all their provinces to reformed.

It is time to say goodbye to Novgorod

..and to say HELLO to Haida Europe

Well, it is something ELSE then warfare, for a change.

After each integration, the Haida emperor did his homework on minmaxing economy..

The most valuable territories development and trade goods wise were stated up, estates assigned, traders moved if needed.

Then it was time to check up on the meat grinder.

Yeah, working fine

Ottomans still have 400k army, but the meat grinder destroyed their manpower pool..

Haida and Ottomans each lost 150k to the meat grinder in Erzurum.

Crazy numbers

The fight lasted 6 months.

SIX. MONTHS.

 

[atwix]

At least it allowed the troops to advance from Constantinople to Adana.

The Ottomans were driven south, surely but steadily..

And the meat grinder fort in Erzurum is close to falling!

The native Americans arrived in the Levant, after asking Iraq access.

The Ottomans are losing more and more terrain to rout to..

The native Americans also arrived in Jerusalem.

Our troops are driving the Ottomans into Egypt now!

And France and Hungary? They stayed on aggressive behaviour, and continue to wipe millions of rebels everywhere. Not exagerating there.

Both PU subjects have 10 war exhaustion, which leads to tons of rebels in their own land. Patch 1.18 has a bug, where AI nations never use diplo points to remove their war exhaustion manually. Unfortunate..

But they happily kill them all, including the rebels on HAIDA territory.

It seems patch 1.19 introduced some bugs with the AI, leading to subjects not actively engaging rebels.

In 1.18, it works fine. As you can see here.

Go get 'm doggies

It worked so well, that I never even had to LOOK at French or Hungary rebels. Ever since 1730, France and Hungary have been destroying all rebel stacks in Europe.

ALL

The Ottoman stacks all vanished into Egypt, with their tails between their legs.

Only Egypt isn't occupied.

It is time to consider possible peace deals.

It is ALSO time for another +1 stab event.

Haida is back at +3 stability, even when trying NOT to

The Haida emperor pondered on WHAT to ask for in the peace deal.

"We must take the fort in Erzurum, and each fort on bad terrain.. And the Bosporus area."

"That said.. We got a lot of threedeckers. Maybe we should secure the ports in the Red Sea, to block the Ottomans from routing FAR in next war.. Hmm yes, we can reach a lot from here if we go to war again."

The emperor yawned.

"I'll sleep on this, and decide in the morning.."

Eagle-Eye Atwix, the ancient spirit god from Haida up until the 16th century, had continued to watch his former totemist believers.

The spirit gave the Haida emperor a weird dream.

The following morning, the Haida emperor made peace with the Ottomans.

The Ottomans became a PROTECTORATE of the Haida Empire.

Wait…. WHAT

Yeah, that's right.

Just like that, Haida now had almost complete control over Europe.

The great and mighty Ottoman empire is now subject of the Haida empire, and joined France and Hungary as new attack dog.

And know the best part? If Haida now enables 'colonial' war box in declare war screen, the Ottomans will join in EVERY war


Right.


I can hear your remarks already

"But protectorates are broken! Ottomans will break away as protectorate when they embrace Enlightenment!"

Well, I theorycrafted on this.

OTTOMAN PLAN: The general plan is to PREVENT Ottomans from embracing the institution with ducats BEFORE they have 100% spread of Enlightenment.

1. We will feed Ottomans backwater institution provinces, where Enlightenment is growing, or not even present yet. Including as MUCH forts as possible This will INCREASE the cost to embrace institution for the Ottomans.

2. we will force divert their trade 100% with subject interaction, and place one of our merchants to collect in Constantinople, to collect all the trade income they have in the Constantinople trade node.

3. we will call them into all our wars, to make sure they spend all their income on active forts and on making new mercenary troops (their manpower pool is gone). they currently have 234 ducats in the treasury, and like 5k debt. Perfect start

4. we will destroy all universities before granting them provinces; this will slow the enlightenment spreading. We will try to feed Ottomans low development backwater institution land only.

Conclusion:

If we can keep their treasury LOW, they will *hopefully* never embrace Enlightenment institution, and never break free from Haida.

Note that this tactic is as yet untested, so this might go wrong horribly

Still, it should work, on paper

Right?

Hope you enjoyed this chapter!

 

[Tom D.]

−50% Land maintenance modifier --> seriously overpowered, it allows for 0.01 ducat reguiments if you stack this with other land maintenance bonuses

Now THAT is indeed insane, sad to know you need AoW for it.

−100 Yearly papal influence --> DRAT.

What is DRAT, never heard of it?

Because I wanted to explain why I did NOT move capital to Europe, and why I will NOT become a revolutionary empire in this AAR, or in any AAR.

Now that's a shame , although it's understandable... Though it would sound awesome, Haida Revolutionary Republic/Empire.

This allowed to seal off the Bosporus with like 150k troops near their capital

I suppose all your infantry is based off mercenaries, otherwise attrition would kill your manpower. But what about the artillery, don't they suffer mass amounts of attrition?

Only excessive micro allows to keep them attached, which i didn't feel like doing for once.

Atwix not having fun in excessive micro in a modern age world war? I thought that was not possible .

..but reinforcements arrived. On both sides though.

Haida army +100k, Ottoman army +50k or so.

How is it even possible to have such amounts of troops in the battle, I thought combat width made it that not all this 200k can fight at once, or is this the change they made in 1.18?

The Ottomans became a PROTECTORATE of the Haida Empire.

Wait…. WHAT

Now that's something unexpected... Hope this won't screw up your WC attempt. Also, you missed your chance again to get the achievement for 1 million casualties on both sides... Ah well, great chapter .

 

[atwix]

What is DRAT, never heard of it?

something like "D'OH!" or "darn it!"

I suppose all your infantry is based off mercenaries, otherwise attrition would kill your manpower. But what about the artillery, don't they suffer mass amounts of attrition?

all infantry is mercs yes. My entire artillery is normal troops, and yes, they take huge amounts of attrition sometimes. But there is no other way sometimes. The entire growth of my manpower goes into building troops OR refilling the artillery ranks due to attrition casualties.

I COULD micromanage it all better to have no casualties in the 350k artillery, but lategame you usually have other concerns.

At least the armies fighting do NOT take attrition if the fight lasts longer then a month..

How is it even possible to have such amounts of troops in the battle, I thought combat width made it that not all this 200k can fight at once, or is this the change they made in 1.18?

Only the combat with of troops on each side fight, but they do switch out. Damaged troops will retreat, and 'reserve' troops will fill the open spots. You should watch the battle window a bit better during big battles

The morale of the army is another issue though. The value shown is the average for all regiments in the entire fight. If you retreat low morale stack, it can fluctuate. I don't usually bother with minmaxing retreat/refill morale/resend back in strats though. Wonder if that even works still, as this got changed quite a few times over the years.

Now that's something unexpected... Hope this won't screw up your WC attempt. Also, you missed your chance again to get the achievement for 1 million casualties on both sides... Ah well, great chapter .

DRAT. you are right, I maybe should have hunted the Ottomans down some more. Oh well, maybe Ming will offer a chance for another meatgrinder war with 1 million + casualties on each side.

The Ottomans can now HELP to give us casualties