Groogy's Proposed "North Korea" fix

[grisamentum]

There has been some big issues with what people have dubbed "North Korea Mode", making the game way too easy to play and removing the entire feudal point of the game. So we have made playing this way a lot less rewarding by reducing the amount of levies and income they actually get from doing this. It is of course still completely possible to play like this if you still want to, but you will be a bankrupt France with only 400 troops while the strong HRE will be raising a lot more troops than that. Small counts and dukes who go over their demense limit just a little bit will be a bit penalized but not to the same degree.

(as posted here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...dia-Dev-Diary-4-Elephants-of-Mass-Destruction )

This change is a step in the right direction. But it only solves part of the problem.

Currently, "North Korea mode" works this way:

1. imprison all vassals
2. banish all vassals (takes all money and all titles)
3. conquer more lands; you'll have very little income but a huge army and a huge treasury.
4. as you acquire new vassals from conquest, go to step #1. you spend a lot on conquest, sure, but step #2 replenishes your treasury.

However, as Groogy said, it will no longer be practical to hold all the titles on your own. You'll no longer get a huge army from holding everything in your own demesne.

But that solution only addresses step #3. You won't have a huge army anymore, correct. But steps #1 and #2 will still be extremely useful.

With the current fix, NKM will start to work like this:

1. imprison all vassals
2. banish all vassals (takes all money and all titles)
3. auto-generate vassals, either via inviting stewards/holy men or by auto-generate directly on holdings.
4. return to demesne limit by handing out titles, meaning every vassal has 100 opinion of you from title grants
5. conquer more lands; you'll have good income and max levies because everyone loves you, a huge treasury from banishing the first generation of vassals, and easily enough money to hire mercenaries.
6. if desired, go to #1 whenever you want more money or whenever your heir takes power.

As you can see, the problem is not really holding everything in your demesne. The problem is banishment. It is simply too easy to imprison and banish everyone to farm a vast amount of money. And once you've banished all your original vassals, your new generation of vassals will not have any tyranny modifier. They won't remember that you just wiped out your previous vassals, because the new vassals did not exist when you did #1 and #2.

Please fix banishment, execution, auto-generation of vassals, and/or revoke title. These diplomatic options have barely been revisited since release and they have always been overpowered. Or do something about the tyranny modifier, making it a universal modifier, not a relational modifier. New courtiers/vassals need to know you were a tyrant, at the very least. Frankly, you probably shouldn't be able to auto-generate vast numbers of courtiers, either, but I don't know what that fix should be.

Simply put, Groogy, the fix you are describing does not fix the game. CK2 will still be mechanically broken in the proposed state.

 

[LACKADAISICAL]

I gotta disagree. Imprisoning all your vassals isn't really a trivial thing that most people would want to do on a regular basis -- with old north korea mode you really only needed to do it once and then continue with mayors and barons, who are too weak to be a problem.

 

[Trunting]

Hm, perhaps there could be a function modifying the chance of imprisoning a vassal, depending on how many vassals you have imprisoned or have tried to imprison in the last 15 years. Lets say, you have already imprisoned two vassals (which seems to be a suitable amount to start with), then the chance of imprisoning another vassals will fall by 15% since the vassals know, you are propbably going for them and are now more careful.

 

[Arcvalons]

Make it so the tyrant modifier also reduces opinion from foreign independent rulers, who might even war you for being an evil tyrant

 

[Trunting]

Make it so the tyrant modifier also reduces opinion from foreign independent rulers, who might even war you for being an evil tyrant

No, my solution is better.

 

[awzc26]

No, my solution is better.

 

[Trunting]

Now you're being sarcastic. Please remember that no one's solution can be perfect up from the start, even not mine!

 

[grisamentum]

I gotta disagree. Imprisoning all your vassals isn't really a trivial thing that most people would want to do on a regular basis -- with old north korea mode you really only needed to do it once and then continue with mayors and barons, who are too weak to be a problem.

1. That wasn't really full NK mode. It was always better to imprison+banish all baronial vassals, too, because a) they provided way more money, b) way more troops, and c) the risk was very low because barons in revolt cannot actually raise troops. It required a stupid amount of clicks? Yes, of course. But skipping over the baronies was just doing it incompletely. Which is connected to my next point...

2. You're 100% right that it's not a "trivial thing" or something that "most people would want to do on a regular basis." And related to that, it requires a stupid amount of clicks, probably best done once per ruler. Is it really aggravating to do it? Of course! But it's strategically the best way to play the game, hands down.

As long as Paradox is trying to "fix North Korea mode" they need to actually fix the real problems, not just half-fix it. As Groogy has explained it, the first thing any player "should" do in any start in CK2 is immediately imprison+banish all vassals, and then just make new ones.

One Real Solution:

Imprisonment should not be a diplomatic option that is always 100% available. It should be two things:

1. a plot, just like murder, to imprison a person
2. a diplomatic action available when it is justified (ie, known plot leader, vassal who "acted dishonorably towards" you, plot member who refused to quit plot, etc)

If you couldn't just mass imprison vassals, you couldn't do NKM. There is no valid gameplay reason to imprison all vassals except to do NKM, so there is nothing lost be removing the ability to imprison any person at will.

 

[Kumicho]

Ummmm, no. NK doesn't need "fixing". It's a pain in the ass to play with as fighting any wars costs a HUGE amount of money, and you're usually reduced to 1-2 gold per month due to the massive penalties. You can create a few city vassals, wait (while collecting no gold because they hate you) and then imprison/banish, but all it takes is one to revolt and then you're spending money raising your own levies to defeat him.

Don't like North Korea Mode? Don't use it. Don't like OTHER people using North Korea Mode? Stop caring about how other people play the game and focus on your own enjoyment. This is getting ridiculous.

 

[grisamentum]

Ummmm, no. NK doesn't need "fixing". It's a pain in the ass to play with as fighting any wars costs a HUGE amount of money, and you're usually reduced to 1-2 gold per month due to the massive penalties. You can create a few city vassals, wait (while collecting no gold because they hate you) and then imprison/banish, but all it takes is one to revolt and then you're spending money raising your own levies to defeat him.

Don't like North Korea Mode? Don't use it. Don't like OTHER people using North Korea Mode? Stop caring about how other people play the game and focus on your own enjoyment. This is getting ridiculous.

Someone has not been keeping up with current events. This thread is not about debating whether it should be fixed. It is being fixed. Deal with it.

 

[BurningEGO]

I dont like the way they are fixing NK mode however. It isnt how things should be.

 

[HlyRomanEmperor]

I said this in another thread but you guys who keep thinking nerfing NK mode is a fix is only treating the symptom.

The problem is the way the feudal system and relationships are presented. Factions that make no sense (overthrowing a king to three days later join a faction against the king they just put on the throne) vassals that are no real threat (without cheating event troops)

No real relationships no loyal mechanic feudalism was about the relationship between lord and vassals yet this relationship does not exist in the game. If feudalism made sense and loyal vassals helped you and benifited you being a good king there would be less need for NK mode as it would be not as efficient.

Celebrating an end to NK mode is celibrating band aid fix on a brutal stab wound. This game could be so much better but you settle for a bandaid and pettition for a band aid. pettition for better vassal mechanics and for a better game.

 

[BaronIronmaggot]

No, my solution is better.

However, your solution only generates unneccecary hassle. Whenever I want to do a NK run, most vassals rebel anyways, so it only makes the second imprison attempt to fail instead of the third. There should be a tyrant trait that you get if you do tyrant actions way too often. If you have that trait, every single ruler gets a Despose Tyrant casus belli on you. If that is paired with the levy penalty - you would be a fool to attmept anything like that.

 

[Hackworthy]

I dont like the way they are fixing NK mode however. It isnt how things should be.

A valid and now confirmed concern which has been raised by the opposition in the many NK debate threads is that P'dox would take a cleaver to our demesne and make it a brutal hard cap. This isn't the first time the boards were inundated with "petitions" over some inane perceived flaw in the game. Every time it happens we get this extreme hatchet-man response like what happened with vassal bisphorics/republics.

 

[HlyRomanEmperor]

Someone has not been keeping up with current events. This thread is not about debating whether it should be fixed. It is being fixed. Deal with it.

so polite...

 

[vandevere]

May I give an example of why I worry? I don't play NKM. In my current Dublin playthrough I'm Petty King of Tara/Duke of Leinster. My combined Stewardship allows me to directly own all four counties, with room to spare. I've built all holdings, so I have barons, mayors and bishops. I enjoy having them, reward them, put them on my council if they're good enough. Sadly, they're not always good enough. still, I like having them.

Am I going to get nerfed? Is the Demesne Limit going to be nerfed?

I mean, as a player who has always played "properly", it would really burn if I got hit with the nerf intended to punish NKM...

 

[grisamentum]

May I give an example of why I worry? I don't play NKM. In my current Dublin playthrough I'm Petty King of Tara/Duke of Leinster. My combined Stewardship allows me to directly own all four counties, with room to spare. I've built all holdings, so I have barons, mayors and bishops. I enjoy having them, reward them, put them on my council if they're good enough. Sadly, they're not always good enough. still, I like having them.

Am I going to get nerfed? Is the Demesne Limit going to be nerfed?

I mean, as a player who has always played "properly", it would really burn if I got hit with the nerf intended to punish NKM...

I think this is a valid point; if the nerf is something like -12.5% levies per holding over demesne then it will really be quite harsh. It's another good reason to primarily nerf imprisonment/banishment, and maybe relax excessive holdings so that even going 10/5 isn't punished, but going 3-4x higher or more is punished.

 

[HlyRomanEmperor]

May I give an example of why I worry? I don't play NKM. In my current Dublin playthrough I'm Petty King of Tara/Duke of Leinster. My combined Stewardship allows me to directly own all four counties, with room to spare. I've built all holdings, so I have barons, mayors and bishops. I enjoy having them, reward them, put them on my council if they're good enough. Sadly, they're not always good enough. still, I like having them.

Am I going to get nerfed? Is the Demesne Limit going to be nerfed?

I mean, as a player who has always played "properly", it would really burn if I got hit with the nerf intended to punish NKM...

Probably not, though the devs have nerfed the innocent before. RPers tend to get hit the worse.

Best example My mastermind theologian zealous catholic crusader can not make a bishop (duke) because of the magic 10% rule.

Did i exploit the mechanic... nope was a punished for the few who did yup.

In the end you may get hit but the way you described your style probably not with this round.

Though you definitely bring up very valid points.

 

[wormyguy]

One Real Solution:

Imprisonment should not be a diplomatic option that is always 100% available. It should be two things:

1. a plot, just like murder, to imprison a person
2. a diplomatic action available when it is justified (ie, known plot leader, vassal who "acted dishonorably towards" you, plot member who refused to quit plot, etc)

If you couldn't just mass imprison vassals, you couldn't do NKM. There is no valid gameplay reason to imprison all vassals except to do NKM, so there is nothing lost be removing the ability to imprison any person at will.

Or, a less complicated real solution would be to make imprisonment chances much less likely; e.g. ~15% for kings, ~15%/~25% for dukes, ~25%/~35% for counts, ~35%/~45% for barons, and ~45%/~55% for courtiers (first number is if they're just in your realm, second is if they're a direct vassal).

As for things that would involve changing the source code, it might be nice if unsuccessfully trying to imprison someone who isn't a direct vassal has a chance of causing their liege to revolt as well. Could be tied to crown authority.

 

[HlyRomanEmperor]

stupid question...


Historians help me out,

How did a vassal get imprisoned back then? If you are a duke and you know your king is mad at you wouldn't you have your guards or retinue protecting you or your homestead? When the arrest went down was it a few guards who approached a duke or count and said sir the king wants to have a word with you please come with us? I really want to know. TBH i have never thought about it until now.