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Apr 21, 2003
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At the moment Eugene appears in both the Austrian and Savoy leadership files. This is rather absurd: it means he will end up in two places at once, and could even fight himself!

Eugene never served with the Savoy army: he was an Austrian general. He should therefore be removed from the Savoy leaders file. The id no. is 09824.
 
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Did you notice the remark: "Would be better as an Austrian 1683-1735" ? Yep, got rid of him from leaders.sav, thanks. Doesn't leave many for them though ...
 
Well now that Sayoard generals have been brought up (and by the way I agree with Jason about Eugene).
-Charles Emmanual II in the leader file is really Charles Emmanual III. The other one is from the mid 17th century.
-Bayard is identical to Eugene, except that France is perhaps more likely to fight Savoy than Austria is. Bayard only served France and shouldn't fight himself either.
-Emmanual Philibert has the exactb same problem. He served Spain until the peace in 1559, but is in both leader files. I'd suggest that the Savoy version be given a start date of 1559 (which is when he regained control of Savoy) and the Spanish version be given a deathdate of 1559. He didn't fight for Spain after 1559, although he was very pro-Spanish.
-Victor Amadeus III never led an army at all. Maybe he can stay, but it doesn't make much sense.

Possible additions might include earlier monarchs. Victor Amadeus I served under his father in 1625 (invasion of Genoa) and in 1629 (invasion of Montferrato). He led armies when he was Duke too.

Tomaso of Savoy led the civil war against the regency of the Dowager Duchess, Marie Christine, in 1637(?). Despite some military succes in the civil war he was ultimately defeated and reconciled with the French. He then led the French (and Savoyard) armies for the duration of the Thirty Years War in Italy - around 1639-1659. He had some successes, but was starved of men and cash by Mazarin. I can provide more info on him.
 
AI Savoy usually doesn't survive for close to as long as it did in real life even with spectacular monarchs, leaders, and great cultures. If you're going to start taking away their leader file you should probably think about buffing them up a bit somehow - maybe increased manpower? More manpower in Savoie wouldn't help a player (who is probably going to have plenty, expanding through Italy and/or France) TOO much, but it might help the AI field a scarier army - and wouldn't much affect an annexing Austria or France, who have few major manpower concerns. Or possibly better starting sliders to improve army morale? I play Savoy a fair amount in SP and don't like the idea of it getting reduced to a third-rate leaderless power, especially as historically it was solidly in the second-rate power group.

I don't mind editing Savoy to be more historical, but I certainly don't think it needs to be any weaker, especially as an AI power. And of course, I'd miss Bayard, who's an incredible leader... :(
 
OK, I've removed Bayard and Victor Amadeus III, changed Charles Emmanual II to Charles Emmanual III, and changed Emmanual Philibert's start date to 1559.

That only leaves 5 leaders for them, so if you wanted to follow through with those others ones, that'd be good.

Was the first Charles Emmanual in the file (1580-1630) supposed to be Charles Emmanual II, then? If not should a Charles Emmanual II be added between them?

Also, I couldn't find Emmanual Philibert, or any name like that, in the SPA leader file. Can you clarify which one he is, pls.
 
Code:
historicalleader = {
	category = general
	id = { type = 6 id = 09791 }
	name = "Filiberto de Saboya"
	startdate = {
		year=1553
	}
	deathdate = {
		year=1580
	}
	rank = 1
	movement = 3
	fire = 3
	shock = 3
	siege = 1
}
 
Originally posted by AndrewT

Was the first Charles Emmanual in the file (1580-1630) supposed to be Charles Emmanual II, then? If not should a Charles Emmanual II be added between them?

No he's Charles Emmanuel I. Also sometimes called "the Great", perhaps rather spuriously.

Charles Emmanuel II wasn't much of a warrior so he shouldn't be in there.

I think the Charles Emmanuel III numbering error actually goes all the way back to Thibault!
 
Possibilities

Originally posted by AndrewT

That only leaves 5 leaders for them, so if you wanted to follow through with those others ones, that'd be good.

Victor Amadeus I
In 1625 he led one of the wings of the Franco-Savoyard army that invaded Genoa. The main action was elsewhere, but the invasion was stalled long enough for the Spanish to cut the armies off and force them to withdraw.
In 1635, with Crequi he led the invasion of Lombardy, besieging Valenza. The siege failed due to conflict between the French, Savoyard, Parman and Mantuan contingents. He beat the Spanish at Tornovento in 1636 and again at Mombaldone in 1637, although both were minor battles. He died in 1637.

Tommaso of Savoy
He served the Spanish in Flanders in 1634. In 1635 he was beaten at Avain/Avein (not sure who the French general was) but this is largely because he was outnumbered three to one. Subsequently he helped expel the Dutch and French from Flanders, and in 1636 he led the army that threatened Paris. He captured Corbie on the Somme, and reached Pontoise, 30 km from Paris, taking La Capelle and Catelet on the way. However, at this distance from his base in Artois he hesitated and had to withdraw.
In 1638, as a Spanish client, he, along with his brother cardinal Maurizio of Savoy began a civil war against the French backed regency of the dowager duchess, Marie Christine. He drove French troops from most of Piedmont. In July 1639 he entered Turin by surprise, and the regent and the Duke took refuge in the citadel. Howver, Harcourt was placed in charge of the French army, and managed to besiege Tommaso in Tuirn, while he continued to besiege the citadel. To top this Leganes brought a Spanish army to Turin, and began to besiege Harcourt. Harcourt beat off Spanish assaults attempting to relieve Tomasso, and in 24 September 1639 Tommaso had to turn the city over to Harcourt and withdraw. From 1640 Spain had no resources available to help him. He carried on the war until 1642, but in May of that year accepted the inevitable, and managed to have himself made commander in chief of French forces in Italy. French forces continued to include a Savoyard contingent, but throughout his command he was starved of cash and men by Mazarin.
In 1643 he led an amphibious operation that took Piombino and Elba. In 1646 he made an amphibious attempt against Orbetello (in the presidial states of Tuscany) which failed due to an outbreak of typhus and the arrival of Spanish reinforcements and the Spanish fleet. In 1648 made an attempt to take Naples in support of the uprising there. By the time he arrived, the revolt was over and an attempt to land at Salerno failed.
In 1655 he led a siege of Pavia with help from Modena. However the combined armies of France, Savoy and Modena were too small for the siege to be effective. He died of malaria during the siege.

Leutrum
He served as a colonel in the Piedmontese army in the War of the Polish Sucession, distinguishing himself at the siege of Pizzighettone in 1733. In 1735 he was promoted to Brigadier.
In 1743 he was with that part of the Piedmontese army that along with the Austrians, faced the Spanish under Gages in Emilia. The commander was the Austrian Traun. At the battle of Camposanto on February 9 1743 the Spanish attacked the outnumbered allies. As the Spanish attack on the allied right gained momentum the Piedmontese commander, Aspremont, was killed. Leutrum led three regiments into the Spanish attack and swept them from the field, winning the battle. He was promoted to Major General.
In early 1744 he served with distinction at the defense of Villefranche, retaking several redoubts from the besiegers. After the fall of Villefranche the French and Spanish swept into Piedmont and he was entrusted with the defense of Cuneo, the key to their attack route. The siege began on 12 September 1744, and during the battle of Madonna dell’Olmo on 29 September he destroyed most of the siegeworks around Cuneo. By 11 October the French, with no base on the Eastern side of the Appenines had to withdraw. The sucessful defense of Cuneo made him the toast of Europe and a full fledged hero in Piedmont, despite the fact that he refused to renounce his protestantism.
In 1745 he won one of the few Piedmontese victories of that campaign, at Ceva on August 26, and beat back another French advance on Ceva in October. In the winter of 1745-46 he led the forces that began to push the allies back, and on 7 March reconquered Asti in a major action capturing 5000 men, and changing Piedmont's fortune at one stroke.
In 1747 he held the right of the Piedmontese front. He died in 1755, and was give a hero's burial in the protestant valleys of Italy.
 
Thanks very much for that. If anyone wants to quantify those guys for me, I'd be grateful - I've got lots of EU2 work right now
:)
 
Well, the new patch made me feel guilty enough to do something about stats and dates. So here goes.
Code:
historicalleader = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 09823 }
	category = monarch
	name = "Victor Amede I"  #could be Vittorio Amadeo (Italian)
	startdate = {
		year=1625 # not sure if it mightn't be earlier
	}
	deathdate = {
		year=1638 # I don't have his deathdate handy, but it was in 1637
	}
	rank = 0
	movement = 3
	fire = 3
	shock = 3
	siege = 0
}
Justification - I'm not sure his stats should be so great. So a settled for a slightly useful monarch. See above for what I have on his record.
Code:
historicalleader = {
	category = general
	id = { type = 6 id = 09824 }
	name = "Tommaso de Savoia"  #Thomas de Savoie in French
	startdate = {
		year=1638 #start of civil war in Savoy
	}
	deathdate = {
		year=1656 #death of malaria
	}
	rank = 1 #led French army in Italy from 1642-1655
	movement = 4
	fire = 4
	shock = 3
	siege = 0
	remark = "Spanish General 1634-1638.  Corbie."
}
These are basically guesses. Perhaps shouldn't be that good

Code:
historicalleader = {
	category = general
	id = { type = 6 id = 09824 }
	name = "Leutrum"
	startdate = {
		day = 8
		month = february
		year=1743 #Took command at battle of CampoSanto
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 16
		month = may
		year=1755 
	}
	rank = 3 #
	movement = 3
	fire = 5
	shock = 3
	siege = 1
	remark = "National Hero.  Savior of Cuneo 1744"
}
He was a brigadier general from 1735, but Aspremont was his superior prior to 1743, and he did not lead an army until 1743. He definitely should have the siege rating, as Cuneo was one of the most famous sieges of the mid 18th century. The 5 fire may be too much, but I felt that given Savoy has lost several good generals it might be OK to have a good one here. Leutrum was primarily an infantry general, and Camposanto was decided by the firepower of the Savoyard/Sardinian infantry.

edit: I'm not entirely knowledgable, so I hope people will feel free to critique these.
 
Great exposition Isaac! Very interesting reading.

What I do not understand is your ratings. This first guy Tommaso doesn't, from your description, seem to be extraordinary in any way. Slightly less than 3 on average appears OK. But this next guy, Leutrum (had never heard about him before I read your story) appears to be something of a military genius who one might guess would have been very well known if he had led big nations's big armies. (And the rating should be based upon his skill not on his reputation, we can agree on that I suppose!). How about on average closer to 5. You give him 3531. I believe military geniuses are always very good in the art of movement because that is the basis of success, you first move into a favourable position, then you win the battle. How about 5531.

However I am not entirely at home with these figures. Could it be that

movement - only affects attrition (and perhaps speed in movement?)
fire - increases the fire phase value
shock - increases the shock phase value

Then giving him 5 in movement was not what I intended when I commented upon that above. Then a 554-1 perhaps?

Now I am off trying to find some more info on this interesting guy Leutrum!

EDIT
Just read some more at
http://cp.yahoo.net/search/cache?p=...evues_npi/28_2002/npi_2802/28_bio_leutrum.htm

This guy was an excellent General. A pupil of Eugene the only thing that stopped him from world fame probably was that he was not given higher commands until in his 40s and that the nation he served was a small one. This guy is indeed a "fiver"!
ENDEDIT
 
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Like I said I'm not sure what the best ratings are. In the game Maneuver affects attrition and (according to some posts) pursuit losses after battle. I reckon 18th century generals were pretty bad at both of these functions, which is why I went with the 3 in this category. I also didn't want to introduce a new monster general (although given that Savoy loses Eugene maybe it's OK).

How about 4541?

As to Tommaso, he was a decent general. He led the army that reached Corbie and caused a major crisis in Paris. He won over most of Savoy in the civil war with few resources (although his opponents didn't have too many either). His lack of sucess as the French commander in Italy in the Thirty Years War was largely because Mazarin ensured that he never had a force large enough to accomplish much of anything. So I guess my ratings are more based on his sucesses as a Spanish general. Still your point is a good one. How about 3's across the board (3330)?
 
In the hopes that Andrew will include this next time, revised leaders based on the previous feedbacK:

Code:
historicalleader = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 09820 }
	category = monarch
	name = "Victor Amede I"  #could be Vittorio Amadeo (Italian)
	startdate = {
		year=1625 # not sure if it mightn't be earlier
	}
	deathdate = {
		year=1638 # I don't have his deathdate handy, but it was in 1637
	}
	rank = 0
	movement = 3
	fire = 3
	shock = 3
	siege = 0
}

historicalleader = {
	category = general
	id = { type = 6 id = 09824 }
	name = "Tommaso de Savoia"  #Thomas de Savoie in French
	startdate = {
		year=1638 #start of civil war in Savoy
	}
	deathdate = {
		year=1656 #death of malaria
	}
	rank = 1 #led French army in Italy from 1642-1655
	movement = 3
	fire = 3
	shock = 3
	siege = 0
	remark = "Spanish General 1634-1638.  Corbie."
}


historicalleader = {
	category = general
	id = { type = 6 id = 09826 }
	name = "Leutrum"
	startdate = {
		day = 8
		month = february
		year=1743 #Took command at battle of CampoSanto
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 16
		month = may
		year=1755 
	}
	rank = 3 #
	movement = 4
	fire = 5
	shock = 4
	siege = 1
	remark = "National Hero.  Saviour of Cuneo 1744"
}

For IDs, Victor Amadeus I uses Bayard's old ID, Tomasso uses Eugene's, and Leutrum uses Victor amadeus III's.


Savoy has given up so many leaders it seems only right they get something in return :)
 
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Very good, done, thanks.