Empire of the Romans instead of Byzantine Empire

[KAMCITY13]

I know this has been discussed in the past but I do hope this time Paradox will have the correct nomenclature for Eastern Rome. The Arabs, Chinese and Turks referred to them as Romans and land of Rum. They themselves referred themselves as Roman. I know some would say Byzantine is to differentiate from the Holy Roman Empire but this is ridiculous as modders already have changed the name from Byzantine Empire to Roman Empire or Empire of the Romans. It’s no confusion at all with the changes.

 

[False_Prophet]

I will only accept it being called "Basileia Rhōmaiōn" in-game.
Also no risk of being confused with the Sacrum Imperium Romanum or Heiliges Römisches Reich (not yet Deutscher Nation).

Seriously speaking though, I see no real reason why it should be called Byzantine Empire in the game, when that is a pretty clear exonym.
And one not even used in the games time.

 

[TomatoHK]

The name “Byzantium” was given to them by later historians

 

[KAMCITY13]

The name “Byzantium” was given to them by later historians

Well I and most people know that already but “Byzantium” was never used to call the Romans that when the Empire still existed. Only after and during Mid 19th century where Byzantine was frequently used in Western World.

 

[KAMCITY13]

I will only accept it being called "Basileia Rhōmaiōn" in-game.
Also no risk of being confused with the Sacrum Imperium Romanum or Heiliges Römisches Reich (not yet Deutscher Nation).

Seriously speaking though, I see no real reason why it should be called Byzantine Empire in the game, when that is a pretty clear exonym.
And one not even used in the games time.

I wouldn’t mind that term in-game. And I do agree there is no reason Byzantine should be used.

 

[Liquid Ghost]

Most players understand what the Byzantine Empire is. Empire of the Romans would lead to confusion with the Roman Empire™.

 

[Austregisel]

Empire of the Romans seens cool, more than Roman Empire. If we have again Byzantine Empire, i will certainly rename to Empire of the Romans like in Meiou&Taxes.

 

[Seon]

You could probably have localized names for nations depending on who you are playing as.

If you are playing as a German count, Byzantine Empire would be localized as Byzantine Empire and if you are playing as a Byzantine, the Basile-whatever or the Empire of the Romans.

 

[farblaze]

I see no real reason why it should be called Byzantine Empire in the game

No reason at all? I don't deny that calling them the Roman Empire or something along those lines would be correct, but I also recognize the term Byzantine Empire. And while some of their contemporaries did refer to them as Romans, others referred to them as Greeks. Especially from the time of Charlemagne the West would refer to them as the Empire of the Greeks. Perhaps that is what they should be called in game, since that is how they were referred to by some. I'm being a bit hyperbolic, since I don't actually want to see them referred to as that, but I hope it gets that point across, that how they were named by contemporaries doesn't translate to how we should call them in the game.

I think that if the game starts in 1066, calling them the Roman Empire would take away from the political controversy that is being the successor to the Roman Empire. While they are of course legally the Roman Empire as they have this clear line back to the Roman times, I think that spiritually, the "Roman Empire" has ceased to exist. What I mean by "Roman Empire" is the intercontinental empire spanning Europe, Africa, and Asia.

That's why I like how it is in CKII right now. The Roman Empire doesn't exist in the start, it has to be reformed. Not calling the Byzantines the Roman Empire makes reforming the empire that much more meaningful.

But that only address why they should not be called the Roman Empire. Why should they be called the Byzantine Empire? Well, if Roman is out of the question, why not call them their other name I mentioned, Empire of the Greeks? This name I feel doesn't capture that Roman Legacy that Byzantine does. Byzantine, we know it's Roman just by a different name, calling them Greeks is a rejection of Romanness and an embrace of Greekness that I don't think represents the situation. Byzantine is probably the most appropriate because, while anachronistic, is the modern English language term used to refer to them that represents their Roman heritage and their fall from that.

 

[DPS]

Most players understand what the Byzantine Empire is. Empire of the Romans would lead to confusion with the Roman Empire™.

Yes, and to avoid that, it probably should be called the Eastern Roman Empire or ERE in-game.

 

[DominusNovus]

If someone comes up to you and asks you to describe the Byzantine Empire, what comes to mind? The exact entity that is in the game labeled as the Byzantine Empire. Like it or not, its what we have collectively as a society decided to call the Roman Empire, based out of Constantinople, after a specific date (said date is not agreed upon, since this is a nomenclature of convenience, but all such dates are before the start of the game).

The Holy Roman Empire was not referred to as such in many of the start dates, but as the Roman Empire, at least by those ruling it. Should the game have two entities named the Roman Empire? No.

 

[Husein]

HRE had more to do with Rome than Byzantines in this time period did. In it's entire history of almost 1000 years it came up with 3 inventions.

 

[Seon]

I mean, if you are claiming who gets to be called Roman Empire, doesn't the Western Holy Roman Empire have the better claim as it uses Latin, controls most of Italy, and has the support of Rome?

We all know that the Holy Roman Empire is neither holy nor roman nor an empire, but Byzantines has about as much (bad) claim for being Roman as they do, so honestly I think it should just be localized based on who you are playing as.

 

[Husein]

I mean, if you are claiming who gets to be called Roman Empire, doesn't the Western Holy Roman Empire have the better claim as it uses Latin, controls most of Italy, and has the support of Rome?

And was acknowledged as such by Spaniards, French, English, Italians, Poles and many others.

 

[KAMCITY13]

I mean, if you are claiming who gets to be called Roman Empire, doesn't the Western Holy Roman Empire have the better claim as it uses Latin, controls most of Italy, and has the support of Rome?

The new seat of power was moved to Constantinople and Rome was dead for years after numerous sacks. Eastern Rome still carried on the state and bureaucracy of Rome

 

[KAMCITY13]

And was acknowledged as such by Spaniards, French, English, Italians, Poles and many others.

Eastern Rome was acknowledged by all the Muslim World, Chinese, Indian states and for a time Europe as well until Eastern Rome had a female ruler in charge and the pope didn’t like that. So what’s your point?

 

[Seon]

The new seat of power was moved to Constantinople and Rome was dead for years after numerous sacks. Eastern Rome still carried on the state and bureaucracy of Rome

But by that logic, shouldn't the Ottoman Empire be considered a Roman Empire because it mostly just inherited and used the bureaucratic system of the Byzantines they conquered?

If a state is defined by its bureaucracy, anyways.

 

[Husein]

Eastern Rome was acknowledged by all the Muslim World, Chinese, Indian states and for a time Europe as well until Eastern Rome had a female ruler in charge and the pope didn’t like that. So what’s your point?

Is Rome in China or Muslim world? My point is that Byzantines were simply a Greek stagnancy, more preocupied with backstabbing and ensuring no one gets ahead than actual advancement of Rome. Roman titles were used for prestige and not out of real belief. Not to mention Byzantine constant backstabbing of Crusaders, from the first to the last one, culminating in the justified revenge on Constantinople in the 4th crusade

Heres a list of inventions in their 1000 years of existance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Byzantine_inventions

And beaurocracy doesn't make someone Roman elsewise Ottomans are Romans too

 

[KAMCITY13]

But by that logic, shouldn't the Ottoman Empire be considered a Roman Empire because it mostly just inherited and used the bureaucratic system of the Byzantines they conquered?

If a state is defined by its bureaucracy, anyways.

Well some say Mehmet considered himself a successor. Others say Russia was the true successor as well

 

[J.B.]

I know this has been discussed in the past but I do hope this time Paradox will have the correct nomenclature for Eastern Rome. The Arabs, Chinese and Turks referred to them as Romans and land of Rum. They themselves referred themselves as Roman. I know some would say Byzantine is to differentiate from the Holy Roman Empire but this is ridiculous as modders already have changed the name from Byzantine Empire to Roman Empire or Empire of the Romans. It’s no confusion at all with the changes.

At this point, I see the term "Byzantine Empire" as a relic of early modern scholarship through 2010s video gaming, arbitrarily used because it was considered the correct academic form for so long, ever since the distortion began. For nearly two years, I have only played Crusader Kings II with a great Ironman-friendly mod that renames "Byzantine Empire" to Roman Empire. I know the difference between Holy Roman Empire, and Roman Empire, the latter of which was formerly the Eastern Roman Empire, yet it once again became the sole imperial realm to bear that name, after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire.

Paradox Interactive could lead the charge, and introduce the rightful Roman title to the so-called Byzantines, who never called themselves that, unless perhaps under limited circumstances, they happened to remember the ancient pre-Constantine name of the city, and occasionally refer to Constantinopolis as its old title. Probably only Roman academics and government officials may have known about the earlier title of the city, Byzantium, past a certain point in time, maybe the 5th century AD. Constantinopolis was its name for many centuries, ever since the 4th century name change.