Ole One Eye

[Goodmongo]

I've read through the Wiki but still don't understand some things. It seems I never get good skilled people no matter what I do. So if anyone can help I would appreciate it. Let's start with an example.

For a child I pick Thrift as the focus. Now it's supposed to give Curious and Fussy as the traits. But I'm getting other childhood traits as weel like affectionate, timid, brooding etc. Why? Are these due to the guardian or general tutor? Of do additional random traits also appear in addition to the ones from the ficus?

Moving on let's say a child with the thrift focus had curious, fussy and somehow also got playful which has happen more than a few times. The Wiki shows the natural adult traits and the educator intervention trait. What is this exactly? Does it mean in order to get one of the adult traits the educator must have that intervention trait?

So for this example playful can turn into gregarious, deceitful or lunatic and the intervention trait is cruel. What happens if I the education has cruel vs. what happens if they don't?

And for curious it says the educator doesn't influence it so why show patient? For fussy it can become patient, greedy or paranoid and the intervention is diligent.

Now I want to get a high intrigue score for this child. Playful and fussy help and curious has no impact. So do I pick an educator with the intervention traits of diligent and cruel or do I go with an educator that is high in intrigue (12+)?

Does the educator intervention trait mean the child also gets that intervention trait?

Does the educator pick the stat to specialize in for the child based on their main stat? In the example the child is strong in intrigue but the educator is a diplomat with high diplomacy. What does the child specialize in?

Thanks for you help. I'm not getting the results that I hope to get and while some is random I think it's because I'm doing something wrong.

 

[Serenity84]

There are some events that can give certain childhood traits that aren't naturally part of the focus. Fussy is pretty common. You notice that when you educate children yourself.

Does it mean in order to get one of the adult traits the educator must have that intervention trait?

No. The adult traits is what happens naturally without intervention. An educator can turn it into the intervention trait instead. This means children educated with Etiquette should have a gregarious tutor so that indolent doesn't turn into slothful or gluttonous. Struggle children should have a brave educator so they don't become dull.

For fussy I don't really care about intervention. Neither greedy nor paranoid are really bad. That is one reason Thrift is so good

My preferred court tutor is gregarious, brave and diligent. If I can't get both of the first two I pick one based on what I educate most children in (struggle for tribals and small realms. Then stewardship later on. And diplomacy when I need more vassal limit). Diligent isn't for intervention, but because it makes good outcomes more likely in some situations

Does the educator pick the stat to specialize in for the child based on their main stat? In the example the child is strong in intrigue but the educator is a diplomat with high diplomacy. What does the child specialize in?

Do you mean the education trait? That's based on the education field (diplomacy, military, stewardship or intrigue). The level is based on the ratio of good vs bad traits

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

The focus increases the chances you get certain traits. Keyword is chance. You are more likely to get events that give Fussy or Curious down this path.

You will get chances to get other traits too, and by adulthood most children will have something between 3-5 traits.

Intervention trait means if the guardian qualifies, he may get an event that gives a third option. In your case with Fussy, the third option will appear. Picking it will encourage the child to pick diligent as their Fussy choice.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

I've read through the Wiki but still don't understand some things. It seems I never get good skilled people no matter what I do. So if anyone can help I would appreciate it. Let's start with an example.

For a child I pick Thrift as the focus. Now it's supposed to give Curious and Fussy as the traits. But I'm getting other childhood traits as weel like affectionate, timid, brooding etc. Why? Are these due to the guardian or general tutor? Of do additional random traits also appear in addition to the ones from the ficus?

Moving on let's say a child with the thrift focus had curious, fussy and somehow also got playful which has happen more than a few times. The Wiki shows the natural adult traits and the educator intervention trait. What is this exactly? Does it mean in order to get one of the adult traits the educator must have that intervention trait?

So for this example playful can turn into gregarious, deceitful or lunatic and the intervention trait is cruel. What happens if I the education has cruel vs. what happens if they don't?

And for curious it says the educator doesn't influence it so why show patient? For fussy it can become patient, greedy or paranoid and the intervention is diligent.

Now I want to get a high intrigue score for this child. Playful and fussy help and curious has no impact. So do I pick an educator with the intervention traits of diligent and cruel or do I go with an educator that is high in intrigue (12+)?

Does the educator intervention trait mean the child also gets that intervention trait?

Does the educator pick the stat to specialize in for the child based on their main stat? In the example the child is strong in intrigue but the educator is a diplomat with high diplomacy. What does the child specialize in?

Thanks for you help. I'm not getting the results that I hope to get and while some is random I think it's because I'm doing something wrong.

Pretty much what @Serenity84 said.
However the AI does not always intervene and also there is no guarantee, that the child accepts the intervention

For example if you choose thrift (which is IMHO the best childhood focus), you have a high chance to develop fuzzy and curious but there is no guarantee as well. Usually children develop three childhood traits, but may choose not no (a player can grow up without any traits).

Those childhood traits can develop into 3 different traits (conscientious only in two, but can give the child stressed as well).
The outcome is random here (but I think the chances are higher, that a child develop the same trait as it's Educator)

Fuzzy for example can develop into Greedy, Paranoid, and Patient.
All of the childhood traits have an intervention trait. If the Education has that trait he can choose to intervene and the child can choose to except that (Children usually do, probably not if they hate you)

Furthermore
At at 14.5 children can be given a additional trait by their educator in trade off for something. The requirement is, that the educator has that skill above 12.
If you have two or more skills above 12 you may give the child ambitious (and become their rival), make them diligent (you become stressed), or patient ("out of patience" modifier)
However in my experience the AI usually does not choose to do any of those things.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

Thanks that clears up a number of issues. It explains why I seldom had shrewd or cynical as I tended to have a patient educator and got patient.

So the last part for 12+ educators means the child can maybe get another trait if the educator is 12+ in some field/ For example a ggod one might be intrigue 12+ which can give the child deceitful or cynical with the educator getting a -15 church opinion or gaining paranoid.

So for a standard tutor would someone with two or more 12+ skills with diligent and either honest, kind or just be a good default educator? If they have 14+ in two skills then event he out of patience won't hurt too much.

I usually pick thrift for all kids at my court and educate them myself...
My problem is that the AI to unreliable when it comes to picking traits - and one educator can only give out one trait at the time.
If you are stressed, you can not make a kid diligent. If you are paranoid, you can not make them deceitful and so on...
If you really want to make sure everyone gets a proper tutor you have to pick manually (You can always make them cyncial and chaste, though)

 

[Serenity84]

For me the absolute worst traits are slothful, gluttonous and dull (maybe arbitrary too). All these are fairly likely. So I look for educators to prevent what I consider the worst possibilities

Idolizer can lead to frail which is pretty bad, but it's more rare. So you can probably look for a kind educator on a case by case basis

As said I've had good experiences with gregarious and/or brave, diligent, and one or two 12+ stats. It's not perfect and there is still randomness involved, but that's what makes Conclave education more interesting than the default. Sometimes things can still go wrong. But for people who aren't your own children it doesn't really matter much

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

For me the absolute worst traits are slothful, gluttonous and dull (maybe arbitrary too). All these are fairly likely. So I look for educators to prevent what I consider the worst possibilities

Idolizer can lead to frail which is pretty bad, but it's more rare. So you can probably look for a kind educator on on a case by case basis

Slothful and gluttonous are not that bad, you can easily lose them with Theology focus (well if we are talking about heir here)
Dull is terrible because it may only be remove by becoming a demon worshipper and then the chances are very slim unless you picked learning education
It's also quite impossible to lose arbitrary, but at least there is a slim chance in rulership focus...


This leads to:
Never pick struggle
The only good trait you can get from Rowdy is Brawny, but Dull and Uncouth are not worth the risk. Willful is good but also not worth the Risk.
Especially when Willful develops into Brave you may no longer pick Brave as intervention for Rowdy and will end up Dull...

or pride
Haughy is just terrible - the only good trait here is the intervention trait ambitious, but if you made the kid ambitious before you will end up with arbitrary or cruel which is bad for vassals, heirs and spymasters (because they plot against you more likly). Brooding is ok and there is a chance that the kid becomes Just, which would be great. But if you are unlucky, you become Just first and arbitrary later.

Etiquette is not as bad as it used to be. Playful is not a bad childhood trait but Indolent was. However it may no develop into Sturdy and Groomed which are good traits

Humility is good if you want the kids to become content... but why would anyone ever want that? (of course, if you have vassal heirs, you want them to become content, but you can not choose their childhood focus). If you get to pick a vassals childhood focus, always go for Humility because it makes them easy to control (Content, Kind, Trusting, Craven, Shy, Humble)

You should also never pick Heritage and Faith. Unless you want a child to change their culture or religion. (You have to if you have a bastard-heir because they are born with the mothers culture and religion). Idolizier ist not that much of a bad trait. The only bad outcome is frail and it's not as bad as arbitrary for example. Erudite and Zealous are pretty good and kind as well. Heritage will give you up to three childhood traits. So only pick if neccessary or if you want to play the lottery.

Duty can give you diligant (good) or temperate (also good) but might give you stressed (annoying but not a big deal as a young person). However, for an heir it means you will have to spend some time hunting, praying or carousing. Nothing to bad I'd say, but I usually prefer not too. Furthermore Duty will give you two more childhood traits that are random. Those are more likly bad than good. I usually pick it for genius children only because they can not make use of curious.

Thrift is IMHO the best childhood focus. Curious may develop into shrewd which is great. You may intervene with patient which is also ok. Cynical is not too bad. If you are zealous yourself, I think it's less likly to develop into cyncial and if there are no different religions at you court the chances are slim that the child will develop sympathy. Shrewd is great because it has some hidden boni beyond the +2 on everything - it allows for many many choices during event and so forth. It's also almost impossible to lose.
Fuzzy is great as well: Greedy and paranoid are okish, patient is good but the intervention trait is awesome. Because if you manage to make you kids diligent, their education trait will have a higher level.
But wait, there is more: Curious has no negative effect on any kid of education focus while fuzzy only hinders diplomacy. Having two good traits (diligent and shrewd) the chance that a kid will have a education trait lower than level 3 is less than 5%

So for me, it's thrift - always

 

[Serenity84]

You need to pick something for martial education, so struggle it is. Usually it works out fine. Yeah, there are other ways to gain martial, but not picking the education at all is just min/max-y BS and not at all necessary

 

[Rydelfox]

For a tutor, I suggest someone with diligent with at least 1 stat over 12 (preferably 2). Diligent characters are more likely to make stat-based interventions, can intervene to turn Fussy into Diligent, and are more likely to make Conscientious into Diligent. Children who are diligent are more likely to get higher-end education traits, plus diligent is a great trait in-and-of itself.
Ideally, they should also be proud and either sturdy or fat.
Proud makes Groomed more likely from Indolent (avoiding slothful and gluttonous) and make both proud and groomed more common from haughty (avoiding cruel and arbitrary). It does have the downside of intervening on willful, making if less likely to become ambitious or brave.
Sturdy and Fat both increase the chance of Indolent becoming Sturdy, avoiding slothful and gluttonous.

Beyond that, Brave can help avoid rowdy becoming dull, while cruel can help avoid playful becoming lunatic.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

You need to pick something for martial education, so struggle it is. Usually it works out fine. Yeah, there are other ways to gain martial, but not picking the education at all is just min/max-y BS and not at all necessary

no, geez, no, never do that
of course. Willful and Rodwy are considered positive traits for martial education, but at the end of the day, only two positve traits count - and can either be Willful and Rowdy or Shrewd and diligent (more than 2 have no effect).
So if you take Willful and Rodwy you will have a good martial education, but also end up with bad traits (dull and stubborn for example) while with Thrift you will end up with a equally good martial education but with good traits (namly shrewd and diligent) which are awesome because the next generation "inherits" them as well

Thank you for the great advice. I'm still a little confused on the best educator assuming it will not be you. Aren't we limited to just two educations and that is saved for my heirs. So I still want good councilors and that means high stats for other child members in my court. And that means if I don't want to micro manage picking a good tutor is the way to go.

I will micro pick an educator some kids that are worthwhile (genius, quick, strong, etc.) but for most want to just rely on a tutor. So what should that be?

Honestly, good councilers are vassals. I dont think the -40 penalty (actually -50) is worth the counciler with 24 instead of the vassal-duke with 22... in whatever skill.
But if you're going for counciler-tutoring - do it yourself, go thrift, it works excellent with every education. And there is no micro-mangement involved. Children without parents (at court) are always educatd by the lord)

 

[Rydelfox]

For the early childhood educations, I think it can depend a lot on your succession law and fertility. If you have high fertility and can easily pick your heir (Buddhist, Pagan with Meritocracy, Merchant Republic, or just good at manipulating elections) you can get a lot of mileage out of churning out lots of kids, giving them something like duty or struggle, then picking the winner.

If you have a harder to manipulate succession law or can't produce enough kids to beat RNG, Thrift is always safe. It rarely gives you the best heir, but the results are usually still very good, and even its worst cases are still pretty acceptable.

 

[Red Earth]

I made this chart. I made it before shrewd, dull etc. were a thing but it's still good.

 

[Rags17]

I have always assumed that the tutor from age 6 to 12 will give the character their personality traits while the tutor from age 12 to 16 will give them their education traits. For that reason I generally let the kids run with the default tutor when they are young, who I aim to be Diligent, Kind, gregarious etc. Once they reach age 12 though I assign them a tutor to match their field of study (eg a Martially trained tutor for Martial etc), with a VERY strong emphasis on Diligent - I have found that a Diligent Skill 3 tutor generally gets better outcomes than an ordinary Skill 4 tutor.

I rarely even look at stats, I don't care if my teachers are cautious craven cowards so long as they know their Thucydides from their Frontinus.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

So I was testing this out and picking Thrift. For the curious trait I noticed that I never got shrewd or cynical when the educator had patient. Is this right or maybe my test base and random numbers just didn't show it yet. If that is the case I should never have a patient educator for Thrift as that removes any chance for shrewd.

So a general rule if the above is true would be to pick thrifty (yes unless you specifically want something else) to get curious and fussy. Then use an educator that always has diligent and one of the following based on the other traits the child might get:

Indolent use Gregarious educator or fat to get Sturdy or Proud for Groomed
Playful use Gregarious, Deceitful or ignore for random choice which might also get Lunatic
Affectionate use Kind or ignore for random choice.
Timid use Humble or Content educator
Brooding use Just or Temperate
Haughty use Ambitious or Proud
Rowdy use Brave, Honest or Brawny
Willful use Ambitious, Brave or Proud
Conscientious keep Diligent or go Just to avoid stressed but miss Diligent.
Curious DO NOT use Patient use you want Patient and not Cynical or Shrewd or a 12+ Intrigue educator that gives Cynical thus almost forcing Shrewd
Fussy use Diligent
Idolizer use Kind or Zealous or Erudite

So is this about right for a general rule?

Nononononono
You are mixing something up here, or maybe not
Did you educate those patient children yourself or did you the AI do it?
Because this: Curious does not develop into patient by itself, it only develops into patient if the educator intervenes. However I don't know what die AI does to decide if they want to intervene when shrewd is the option, but it can happen, that you get patient instead of shrewd, obviously it could also happen that you get patient instead of cynical. It's probably best, if you can not do it yourself, to pick a shrewd educator (spawn one with "holy man") because this will make curious evolve into shrewd more likly.

If I am not mistaken (!) Educator traits don't matter that much any more. A diligent educator will not make the childs educator trait outcome better (anymore, it used to be the case, that diligent educators would give better education traits). Of course, a diligent educator can intervene when the children are fuzzy and will make diligent a more like outcome of Conscientious...

mh. In general: It's more likly that the intervention trait work compared to the chance the the childhood trait evolves into the educators-trait.
However, and this is the reason one of the reasons why I educate all the children myself, I still don't understand what the AIs mechanics are to intervene or not.

And, if you educate the children yourself, you have some influcence over the childhood traits they develop. For example, for a minor prestige hit you can avoid kids getting haughty

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

I was letting the AI do it because of this line from the WIKI:
"Educators cannot influence whether Curious

becomes Cynical

or makes the child smarter."

So that's why I assumed that since the AI educator had Patient it changed the kids to Patient instead of Cynical or Shrewd. My test base was small so it could just be random occurrences where it happened all 4 times.

That said Patient would still be a poor choice as even if it's limted to 25% chance that is a reduction in Shrewd coming up.

Question: When you say: "this is the reason one of the reasons why I educate all the children myself", aren't you limited to just two children at a time? And is this viable even if your character doesn't have that many traits? Can the player character really educate all children in his court? The reason I ask is because I was educating two sons when a daughter was born. I tried to select myself as educator but couldn't see me as an option. And I don't see me as an option for tutor. So if you can educate more than two how do you do it?

Spoiler: take a look at my nephew Ragnarr, who is not the brightest diamond in my dynasty crown

Spoiler: But then, the curious magic happens

Spoiler: all hail to King Geirr 'the Bone-Squeezer', mighty educator of the shrewd

I actually rolled back here when it happend the first time (when he was 12, this time it took longer) but apparently curious does not only remove slow, it also replaced it with shrewd
Does anyone know if this is WAD or a bug?

ontopic:
Potentially, the AI screwd up. I hoenstly don't know IF educators make childhood traits develop into similar traits as their own, but I do know that my children most of the time end up with shrewd, and I can choose between diligent and patient (from fuzzy).
King Geirr educated 3 kids so far (Ragnarr-Slowling twice) and his heir-nephew, all turned out shrewd just like himself
But 2.5 is only a smart margin... yet as I said, my kids usually end up with the same traits as their educators

It is in fact entirly possible that your educators intervene and removed shrewd. As I said, I don't know the mechanic for the AI to pick one or the otter option

Well. Ok. Here is the thing - I don't educate ALL the kids, only those who turn out with good traits, or those I care about, and obviously my own ones.
I apparently play CKII a bit different compared to most people here on the forum:

1. I actually never educate councilers, except for spymaster and those only because of
2. I raise my dynasty to hold ALL the titles in my realm. This means I need a lot of children of my dynasty but because of Gavelkind succession not my own children. My court is usually crowded with dynasty members who get landed when I get my greedy fingers on new titles (if male, of course)
I educate the female dynasty members in intrigue so they can better lie to their spouses about the father of their children because of the not-broken-at-all AI-seduction. I educate the male as warlord heirs or - if their childhood traits suck - I just pick whatever seems good.
3. I usually try to keep no other children and actually no other courtiers than dynasty members to avoid disease and COURT_SIZE_CHILD_PENALTY_THRESHOLD

So how do I educate MOST children by myself?
1. You always educate you own children
2. You always educate children with no parents (at your court); this includes prisoners
3. If there are children left I want to educate but which are not my own or have parents at the court, I pick them when they are 12 (together with their education focus)

As stated above my court is full with dynasty members.
Men get landed as soon as they are adult, fathered preverable a at least one son or have a brother how could take over the rule if they happen to die early without an heir.
Women however have to stay at my court because I can not land them. They are married matrilinearly to some random dude. I usually send him away when his wife passes away (unless he is a siege leader). This way I get to educate the children who stay behind.

 

[IntoTheMaelstrom]

Conclave can be disabled

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Conclave can be disabled

Only people who don't know how to play the game would say that.

But yes, it can be disabled.

 

[Rydelfox]

Regarding curious becoming Shrewd, and going over the events, it looks like there is normally and even chance at attempting the following
Curious becoming cynical, but only if they don't have cynical or zealous
Curious becoming sympathy, but only if they are not cynical and either their educator, location, any friend, or any sibling doesn't match their religion
Curious becoming shrewd or improving imbecile/dumb/quick
If none of the options are valid, they lose cynical and gain 2 stewardship

Once the potential outcome is decided, if the educator is patient, they can have the child become patient instead. When the AI gets this option, they will pick between the two randomly.

So, normally, assuming the child has the same religion as their educator and province and no different religion friends or siblings, they have a 50% chance of getting shrewd.
However, if an AI educator is patient, they have a 50% chance of getting patient instead, dropping the overall chance of shrewd to 25%

Regarding slow, looking at the event, the chance to gain shrewd should remove slow but not gain shrewd. I don't see how it would have given your characters shrewd as well.

Regarding the educator's traits:
Certain traits will let the educator intervene to give the child a different trait
If the educator has a trait a childhood trait can become, those childhood traits are more likely to change earlier
Most children are more likely to have those childhood traits evolve into adult traits the educator has, with a few exceptions:
Gaining Groomed is more likely if the educator is proud, but ignores whether the educator is groomed
Gaining Uncouth is more likely if the educator is shy, but ignores whether the educator is uncouth
Gaining Dull is more likely if the educator is slow or an imbecile, but ignores if the educator is dull
Gaining Sturdy is more likely if the educator is gluttonous, sturdy, or fat.
Gaining Lunatic is more likely if the educator is possessed or a lunatic
The educator's traits have no impact on curious
Gaining zealous is only more likely from the educator being zealous if they share the child's religion
Gaining feeble is more likely if the educator is weak, but ignores if the educator is feeble
A conscientious child will not become stressed if the educator intervenes to make them just

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

WAD per the Wiki. May reduce Imbecile

to Slow

or remove Slow

.



Are you limited to just two kids that you can train at the same time? Or is that just for picking other specific educators?

but it didn't reemove slow, it removed slow AND added shrewd which is not exactly what the wiki states

 

[Rydelfox]

BTW, regarding to being limited to two characters, you can be the guardian (and thus educator) to two characters, but if you don't have a court tutor, you are also the educator for all children in your court. Since your own children are in your court by default, with no court tutor you can easily educate all of your children yourself