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Ch10 Q1: Barracks and Holy Warriors.From what I can see, building a first level Barracks at Tikhvin would increase the HI base in the Temple by 45, from 56 to 101. On current ratios (what looks to be 36.6% of 50% of the total), that would seem to increase the available HI by less than 10. Is that about right? I see there are some laws that might increase that proportion (given poor laws are taking 40% off at present) – are they within reach, any advice on pursuing them? And based on that calculus, is there value in building a barracks at this point, or not, do you (collectively) think? I’m keen to increase my HI resources, but am not sure if this is an efficient way to do it yet. Any other advice of a broadly related nature welcomed.
I generally don't bother building up my vassals. You don't get that much benefit, and the money can be better put to your own purposes.
Ch10 Q2: Gold or Swords? Are these priorities wrong? I’ve been assuming the available army seems to be quite sufficient for now and the HOI training options are very limited. So I’m going for the bolstering of finances and a long term supplementation of sporadic raiding income. The views of the Thing are sought.
That one's always a tough balancing act, but it's not a bad choice. I'd be inclined to build up those other buildings though. They use prestige, and once your character dies it's gone. Money can be inherited and used later.
Ch10 Q3: Looting Potential.Just out of curiosity, is this a reasonably lucrative-looking raid target (I know it’s not Rome, Paris or Constantinople)? Or is it a bit of a waste of precious conquering time back home? See a little further down for how much gold is flowing into the coffers.
It beats raiding places that only have tribal holdings, that's for sure.
Ch10 Q4: Ransoms.So, does it make any difference? For example, if I wait and then end up capturing the King, would that mean he wouldn’t be free to ransom them himself? Or if killed then they lose their value? Would it be better to keep them as bargaining chips? Or in a raid situation, should it just be a matter of taking the money and running whenever you can get it?
Ch10 Q1: Barracks and Holy Warriors. From what I can see, building a first level Barracks at Tikhvin would increase the HI base in the Temple by 45, from 56 to 101. On current ratios (what looks to be 36.6% of 50% of the total), that would seem to increase the available HI by less than 10. Is that about right? I see there are some laws that might increase that proportion (given poor laws are taking 40% off at present) – are they within reach, any advice on pursuing them? And based on that calculus, is there value in building a barracks at this point, or not, do you (collectively) think? I’m keen to increase my HI resources, but am not sure if this is an efficient way to do it yet. Any other advice of a broadly related nature welcomed.
It is not an efficient way to increase said resource, and until you become a feudal ruler there won't be one. The temple improvements that grant extra tech points for holding them may be worthwhile however, but there are tech prerequisites for them. Ch10 Q2: Gold or Swords? Are these priorities wrong? I’ve been assuming the available army seems to be quite sufficient for now and the HOI training options are very limited. So I’m going for the bolstering of finances and a long term supplementation of sporadic raiding income. The views of the Thing are sought.
For the time being, increasing gold income is fine. However, you do need a stone hillfort (the level IV) in order to upgrade to a castle, so keep that in mind. IMPORTANT NOTE: All improvements built in the tribe holding vanish when you upgrade to castle BUT any that are level II or IV will convert to an appropriate castle upgrade of level I or II (level III gets converted to I). Also, all castle upgrades cost gold, so in theory you could spend prestige now to save gold later. For example, if you have market town II(+1 income), war camp IV(+160 light infantry), and training grounds IV(+10% levy size and garrison), you would get castle town I (+2 income), barracks II (+70 HI +30 Pikemen), and keep II (+15% levy, garrison size). Note, that it costs more to go from market village II to IV than from castle village I to II.
Ch10 Q3: Looting Potential. Just out of curiosity, is this a reasonably lucrative-looking raid target (I know it’s not Rome, Paris or Constantinople)? Or is it a bit of a waste of precious conquering time back home? See a little further down for how much gold is flowing into the coffers.
When you factor in the possibility of bonus ransoms, and other good events that raiding can give, its still worth it.
Ch10 Q4: Ransoms. So, does it make any difference? For example, if I wait and then end up capturing the King, would that mean he wouldn’t be free to ransom them himself? Or if killed then they lose their value? Would it be better to keep them as bargaining chips? Or in a raid situation, should it just be a matter of taking the money and running whenever you can get it?
In general I would only keep a prisoner if I don't want them to declare war on me (usually not a concern), or if I want to control their breeding (also usually not a concern).
Ch10 Q1: Barracks and Holy Warriors.From what I can see, building a first level Barracks at Tikhvin would increase the HI base in the Temple by 45, from 56 to 101. On current ratios (what looks to be 36.6% of 50% of the total), that would seem to increase the available HI by less than 10. Is that about right? I see there are some laws that might increase that proportion (given poor laws are taking 40% off at present) – are they within reach, any advice on pursuing them? And based on that calculus, is there value in building a barracks at this point, or not, do you (collectively) think? I’m keen to increase my HI resources, but am not sure if this is an efficient way to do it yet. Any other advice of a broadly related nature welcomed.
It's not worth upgrading vassal buildings in nearly all cases. The payoff isn't worth it. You do get a one-time opinion boost with the vassal whose holding you upgraded that wears off in a year or five. I don't even remember how long or how much. It can be worth it in very rare cases to make someone happy short term while you eliminate more troublesome vassals now. In your case, don't do it. You only get a fraction of their levies, and then only if they like you. Meh.
Ch10 Q2: Gold or Swords?Are these priorities wrong? I’ve been assuming the available army seems to be quite sufficient for now and the HOI training options are very limited. So I’m going for the bolstering of finances and a long term supplementation of sporadic raiding income. The views of the Thing are sought.
Nope, you're good. You want to upgrade all of your personal tribal holdings as fast as you can, and a steady source of income will pay itself off quickly. Spend prestige on the remaining buildings - they upgrade to castle upgrades when you go feudal, saving money in the long run. Prestige disappears when you die and money lives forever. As Norse, prioritize shipyards when available. You'll want the increased raiding capacity.
Ch10 Q3: Looting Potential.Just out of curiosity, is this a reasonably lucrative-looking raid target (I know it’s not Rome, Paris or Constantinople)? Or is it a bit of a waste of precious conquering time back home? See a little further down for how much gold is flowing into the coffers.
Long-term, no. As of now you've got 40 ships in that stack, you can loot up to 400 gold/prestige. You want to hit the spot where travel time to and from target is best balanced by the haul. I'd not worry about the Mediterranean until you've got a larger fleet, especially since you're in the Baltics - it's a long way there and back. For now, single and double county independent rulers are your best targets. England, Brittany, Ireland (lots of low level tribal holdings with tons of prisoners - Irish counts can concubine and wind up with a massive family, and all provinces with churches for that sweet, sweet MA), maybe a little further than that. Keep an eye on larger Kingdoms torn up by revolts with rich provinces on the periphery. If France is revolting in Frisia, the King won't be in Aquitaine with his army Don't take Slavs on raids. Take only Norse commanders - you and they will get the Viking trait, Slavs get nothing, and if you wind up in a battle while raiding, you've already lost. They'll rip you apart.
Ch10 Q4: Ransoms.So, does it make any difference? For example, if I wait and then end up capturing the King, would that mean he wouldn’t be free to ransom them himself? Or if killed then they lose their value? Would it be better to keep them as bargaining chips? Or in a raid situation, should it just be a matter of taking the money and running whenever you can get it?
Prisoners are sweet. You either get money for ransom, prisoners for a blot, or concubines (preferably highborn with claims). You can afford to wait on 12+ year old female prisoners that are nobility to grow up first before you enslave them to your will, but at age 0 I'd just take the money. The Duchess as well. The other two... check who they are first. The boy is a Cerneu, the ruling dynasty of Cornwall. Probably a distant relative of the Duke that isn't worth much of anything unless he somehow gets in the succession line. The woman is some cousin's wife most likely. But she is noble by birth so it might be a bit of prestige to concubine her. Check it out, right click her, Take Concubine, and then hover over the decision to see if she will net you some minor prestige gains. You can always marry her off to some commander or council member if you tire of her crap.
ALWAYS be raiding. Always. You should be either waging war for more territory or raiding suckers with more money than levies - there is nothing sporadic about it. It's the fastest way out of tribalism. And yes, I always raid Ireland first. It's ripe for the plucking and definitely worth it with a smaller fleet. You can divide your forces in Ireland, halfsies or so, as long as the ports are on the same sea zone, too. Try to get a commander with the Siege Leader trait or Architect lifestyle trait and put him in command of the center flank for faster sieges while raiding. That's the only non-Norse character I'd take raiding with me - if you've got one.
I just found this today, really enjoy what you're doing with the learning as you go. Everyone has provided great answers to your earlier questions, so I thought I'd just post some thoughts on your latest batch.
Another military folkemøte is called, this time in Cornwall, to discuss answers to the King’s latest questions and to seek any other advice that may be forthcoming.
Ch10 Q1: Barracks and Holy Warriors.From what I can see, building a first level Barracks at Tikhvin would increase the HI base in the Temple by 45, from 56 to 101. On current ratios (what looks to be 36.6% of 50% of the total), that would seem to increase the available HI by less than 10. Is that about right? I see there are some laws that might increase that proportion (given poor laws are taking 40% off at present) – are they within reach, any advice on pursuing them? And based on that calculus, is there value in building a barracks at this point, or not, do you (collectively) think? I’m keen to increase my HI resources, but am not sure if this is an efficient way to do it yet. Any other advice of a broadly related nature welcomed. Ch10 Q2: Gold or Swords?Are these priorities wrong? I’ve been assuming the available army seems to be quite sufficient for now and the HOI training options are very limited. So I’m going for the bolstering of finances and a long term supplementation of sporadic raiding income. The views of the Thing are sought.
Ch10 Q3: Looting Potential.Just out of curiosity, is this a reasonably lucrative-looking raid target (I know it’s not Rome, Paris or Constantinople)? Or is it a bit of a waste of precious conquering time back home? See a little further down for how much gold is flowing into the coffers.
Ch10 Q4: Ransoms.So, does it make any difference? For example, if I wait and then end up capturing the King, would that mean he wouldn’t be free to ransom them himself? Or if killed then they lose their value? Would it be better to keep them as bargaining chips? Or in a raid situation, should it just be a matter of taking the money and running whenever you can get it?
Q1. I usually spend very little on building up my vassals holdings, and concentrate on my own where I will get the full benefit of any improvements. The vassals overtime will slowly build their holdings up on their own.
Q2. Most of your gold as a viking will come from raiding not from your holdings, the only limitation is how many ships you have available take on your raids to fill up with loot. So I concentrate early on to get as many troops as possible to raid faster.
Q3. If you look at the county loot bar for each potential raid target it will tell you how much gold is available from just looting the countryside without having to actually sack the castles/towns/churches. It is often more efficient and profitable to hit multiple high value country sides and strip them and move on to the next county without sticking around to sack the holdings. You are also all able to leave before they can muster an army to drive you off.
I usually stay and sack holdings mainly if I looking for hostages from the castles to ransom or if there are a lot of churches and cities in the county. Churches and cities yield more loot than castles. Prime targets are counties ruled by bishops, or merchant republic ruled by Lord Mayors, as the top holdings are either churches or cities which fall more easily than castles.
Q4. The ransom value of prisoners doesn't change, unless they inherit or lose titles while they are your prisoner, so don't need to ransom them right away. You can wait and see if they have other uses. Also, sometimes you have to wait for their lieges to replenish their funds before they can afford to be ransomed.
Prisoners also provide other benefits. The higher the rank of the prisoners the more prestige you get if you sacrifice them during a Blot. Or you can get more prestige if you take a woman from a more prestigious dynasty as a concubine. Taking female prisoners with claims as concubines can also lead to children of your dynasty who inherit those claims for future expansion.
Another great chapter and I’d go with what the others are saying particularly when it comes to gold or swords. Don’t bother building vassal holdings though. Leave that to when you’re very rich and need to impress someone.
Thanks to all who have already replied so quickly. Some really useful advice so far. Will do my usual comprehensive summary of the outcomes in due course.
The folkemote will remain open for a few days yet for more comments, views and advice - the more the merrier! Please feel free to travel to balmy (if somewhat besieged) Cornwall to participate- King Rurik will find you very well met if you do . And don’t feel restricted to only answering the specific questions posed, if there’s something else you think worth mentioning- or just commenting on in ‘normal’ AAR fashion.
In the meantime, I will have to conduct an important War Cabinet meeting in my other alternate HOI3 world of 1940 Turkey, then will return again to Rurik’s adventures after that. In the meantime, thanks to all for your continued support and readership.
I just found this today, really enjoy what you're doing with the learning as you go. Everyone has provided great answers to your earlier questions, so I thought I'd just post some thoughts on your latest batch.
Q1. I usually spend very little on building up my vassals holdings, and concentrate on my own where I will get the full benefit of any improvements. The vassals overtime will slowly build their holdings up on their own.
Q2. Most of your gold as a viking will come from raiding not from your holdings, the only limitation is how many ships you have available take on your raids to fill up with loot. So I concentrate early on to get as many troops as possible to raid faster.
Q3. If you look at the county loot bar for each potential raid target it will tell you how much gold is available from just looting the countryside without having to actually sack the castles/towns/churches. It is often more efficient and profitable to hit multiple high value country sides and strip them and move on to the next county without sticking around to sack the holdings. You are also all able to leave before they can muster an army to drive you off.
I usually stay and sack holdings mainly if I looking for hostages from the castles to ransom or if there are a lot of churches and cities in the county. Churches and cities yield more loot than castles. Prime targets are counties ruled by bishops, or merchant republic ruled by Lord Mayors, as the top holdings are either churches or cities which fall more easily than castles.
Q4. The ransom value of prisoners doesn't change, unless they inherit or lose titles while they are your prisoner, so don't need to ransom them right away. You can wait and see if they have other uses. Also, sometimes you have to wait for their lieges to replenish their funds before they can afford to be ransomed.
Prisoners also provide other benefits. The higher the rank of the prisoners the more prestige you get if you sacrifice them during a Blot. Or you can get more prestige if you take a woman from a more prestigious dynasty as a concubine. Taking female prisoners with claims as concubines can also lead to children of your dynasty who inherit those claims for future expansion.
Many thanks and welcome Dunaden! Wonderful to have another learned contributor. Some very valuable additional info there too. Rurik will be most appreciative - as will Gumarich der Schreiber and (in true CK2 time-warp fashion, the team of modern day translators) for the interest in his/their work
Loads of advice has been said already so I'll just leave a few quick comments.
Gold-producing holdings built early in the game have longer to produce. Military buildings provide the same benefit whenever they are built.
Those buildings are a future investment, best paid for by raiding and ransom.
I advise to build up your own holdings, unless you're one day absolutely swimming in cash and have nothing better to spend it on. That way, you get the full benefit of any improvements and become stronger relative to your uppity vassals.
I'm more inclined to ransom non-combatants or useless enemy commanders during a war. I'll only ransom important people back before the fighting ends if I'm desperate for gold.
Military Folkemøte of April 870 (Cornwall) (Summary of advice for Chap 10)
ALWAYS be raiding. Always. You should be either waging war for more territory or raiding suckers with more money than levies - there is nothing sporadic about it. It's the fastest way out of tribalism. And yes, I always raid Ireland first. It's ripe for the plucking and definitely worth it with a smaller fleet. You can divide your forces in Ireland, halfsies or so, as long as the ports are on the same sea zone, too. Try to get a commander with the Siege Leader trait or Architect lifestyle trait and put him in command of the center flank for faster sieges while raiding. That's the only non-Norse character I'd take raiding with me - if you've got one.
I will certainly look to Ireland next after I have finished in the south-west of Britannia. Noted re the necessity of intense early raiding. May try to briefly intersperse it with necessary conquests at home. Even better if it gets to the point where I can do two at once.
I just found this today, really enjoy what you're doing with the learning as you go. Everyone has provided great answers to your earlier questions, so I thought I'd just post some thoughts on your latest batch.
As replied earlier - great to have another contributor to this collective work! And yes, some excellent answers, but greatly appreciate you finding more to add.
Another great chapter and I’d go with what the others are saying particularly when it comes to gold or swords. Don’t bother building vassal holdings though. Leave that to when you’re very rich and need to impress someone.
Many thanks my friend. That 'don't build vassal holdings' advice has come through loudly and consistently from the start - I will only do it rarely, if ever, in compelling circumstances.
Ch10 Q1: Barracks and Holy Warriors.From what I can see, building a first level Barracks at Tikhvin would increase the HI base in the Temple by 45, from 56 to 101. On current ratios (what looks to be 36.6% of 50% of the total), that would seem to increase the available HI by less than 10. Is that about right? I see there are some laws that might increase that proportion (given poor laws are taking 40% off at present) – are they within reach, any advice on pursuing them? And based on that calculus, is there value in building a barracks at this point, or not, do you (collectively) think? I’m keen to increase my HI resources, but am not sure if this is an efficient way to do it yet. Any other advice of a broadly related nature welcomed.
A lot of the gains from buildings are very modest to begin with. The one time I played tribal I went for finances over troops to begin with - but others may think differently.
Honestly, I have never powered up much minor vassals like mayors and priests' holding. If you want ten more men go ahead, but if you don't power it up to ridiculous level while at the same time changing your laws to get more levies from your temple vassals, you are never going to even hit the one hundred. I always save money to invest in defenses and tax income in those kind of holdings.
It is not an efficient way to increase said resource, and until you become a feudal ruler there won't be one. The temple improvements that grant extra tech points for holding them may be worthwhile however, but there are tech prerequisites for them.
It's not worth upgrading vassal buildings in nearly all cases. The payoff isn't worth it. You do get a one-time opinion boost with the vassal whose holding you upgraded that wears off in a year or five. I don't even remember how long or how much. It can be worth it in very rare cases to make someone happy short term while you eliminate more troublesome vassals now. In your case, don't do it. You only get a fraction of their levies, and then only if they like you. Meh.
Q1. I usually spend very little on building up my vassals holdings, and concentrate on my own where I will get the full benefit of any improvements. The vassals overtime will slowly build their holdings up on their own.
Those buildings are a future investment, best paid for by raiding and ransom.
I advise to build up your own holdings, unless you're one day absolutely swimming in cash and have nothing better to spend it on. That way, you get the full benefit of any improvements and become stronger relative to your uppity vassals.
I will reply to these wise offerings at once, as the consensus is clear and reinforces the conclusion I had provisionally come to in this particular case (ie the small addition of HI would not be worth it and building for vassals is pretty much ineffective).
What I'm still left wondering about is how, if HI is so good for Vikings to wield, can I start to get more of them coming my way? I guess I'm just not far enough along the research chain to get them yet (for my own holdings, in buildings that I would own myself once built).
Ch10 Q2: Gold or Swords?Are these priorities wrong? I’ve been assuming the available army seems to be quite sufficient for now and the HOI training options are very limited. So I’m going for the bolstering of finances and a long term supplementation of sporadic raiding income. The views of the Thing are sought.
I agree with gold over sword. If you have gold and lack swords, you can pay mercenaries, but if you lack gold and have swords you can only cry while you dive in the depths of debt.
That one's always a tough balancing act, but it's not a bad choice. I'd be inclined to build up those other buildings though. They use prestige, and once your character dies it's gone. Money can be inherited and used later.
Hmm, I can see now, in retrospect, my selection of the Exalted ambition for Rurik inhibits my early use of prestige for building. My target is 1,000; I'm currently at 435. Sure, I get 100 bonus once I attain it (plus a few other smalle benefits) and can then spend up big with it if I wish to. Of course, I could use large chunks of prestige early, but then risk not achieving the ambition. *holds chin in classic pondering pose*
For the time being, increasing gold income is fine. However, you do need a stone hillfort (the level IV) in order to upgrade to a castle, so keep that in mind. IMPORTANT NOTE: All improvements built in the tribe holding vanish when you upgrade to castle BUT any that are level II or IV will convert to an appropriate castle upgrade of level I or II (level III gets converted to I). Also, all castle upgrades cost gold, so in theory you could spend prestige now to save gold later. For example, if you have market town II(+1 income), war camp IV(+160 light infantry), and training grounds IV(+10% levy size and garrison), you would get castle town I (+2 income), barracks II (+70 HI +30 Pikemen), and keep II (+15% levy, garrison size). Note, that it costs more to go from market village II to IV than from castle village I to II.
This is very specifically useful info - thanks! Will need to cross-check against this as I get to that stage in my building program. Not there yet, of course.
Nope, you're good. You want to upgrade all of your personal tribal holdings as fast as you can, and a steady source of income will pay itself off quickly. Spend prestige on the remaining buildings - they upgrade to castle upgrades when you go feudal, saving money in the long run. Prestige disappears when you die and money lives forever. As Norse, prioritize shipyards when available. You'll want the increased raiding capacity.
If I can have more than one source of income, I figured all the better. Re prestige: OK, but see above - not sure if the delay will be enough to be a problem. I'm hoping it can wait a little. I currently only have one coastal province (Ingria), which is vassal-owned. It has a L1 Shipbuilder at present. This also seems to answer (in part anyway) my question of increasing the proportion of HI I can levy.
Q2. Most of your gold as a viking will come from raiding not from your holdings, the only limitation is how many ships you have available take on your raids to fill up with loot. So I concentrate early on to get as many troops as possible to raid faster.
Will try. Per above, perhaps I should look at a coast province for conquest next so I can start building shipyards?
Ch10 Q3: Looting Potential.Just out of curiosity, is this a reasonably lucrative-looking raid target (I know it’s not Rome, Paris or Constantinople)? Or is it a bit of a waste of precious conquering time back home? See a little further down for how much gold is flowing into the coffers.
Long-term, no. As of now you've got 40 ships in that stack, you can loot up to 400 gold/prestige. You want to hit the spot where travel time to and from target is best balanced by the haul. I'd not worry about the Mediterranean until you've got a larger fleet, especially since you're in the Baltics - it's a long way there and back. For now, single and double county independent rulers are your best targets. England, Brittany, Ireland (lots of low level tribal holdings with tons of prisoners - Irish counts can concubine and wind up with a massive family, and all provinces with churches for that sweet, sweet MA), maybe a little further than that. Keep an eye on larger Kingdoms torn up by revolts with rich provinces on the periphery. If France is revolting in Frisia, the King won't be in Aquitaine with his army Don't take Slavs on raids. Take only Norse commanders - you and they will get the Viking trait, Slavs get nothing, and if you wind up in a battle while raiding, you've already lost. They'll rip you apart.
Ireland again - firming as my next destination! Will note about those Slav commanders: I had replaced one so far (with our good Norseman Dan) and only brought Vsemil along because I was low on decent alternatives, Helgi was unavailable and (mainly) I hadn't quite appreciated the point on the Viking trait.
Q3. If you look at the county loot bar for each potential raid target it will tell you how much gold is available from just looting the countryside without having to actually sack the castles/towns/churches. It is often more efficient and profitable to hit multiple high value country sides and strip them and move on to the next county without sticking around to sack the holdings. You are also all able to leave before they can muster an army to drive you off.
I usually stay and sack holdings mainly if I looking for hostages from the castles to ransom or if there are a lot of churches and cities in the county. Churches and cities yield more loot than castles. Prime targets are counties ruled by bishops, or merchant republic ruled by Lord Mayors, as the top holdings are either churches or cities which fall more easily than castles.
Will remember the fast-moving locust swarm option. Though taking the keep has yielded some potentially rich ransom and Blot candidates, as you mention. Noted about that taking more time and looking for more weakly held and succulent situations - that haven't already been recently raided by similar bands!
Ch10 Q4: Ransoms.So, does it make any difference? For example, if I wait and then end up capturing the King, would that mean he wouldn’t be free to ransom them himself? Or if killed then they lose their value? Would it be better to keep them as bargaining chips? Or in a raid situation, should it just be a matter of taking the money and running whenever you can get it?
If he has the cash, he will pay it if you want to ransom him. The general rule with hostages is sell them if they are nobodies (and if the lord pays, it tells you that realm has some idle cash on hand) and keep them if they are really important (either because them being captured means a state can't declare war or a ruler can't breed...this one is actually really effective).
If the realm won't pay their ransom, they probably will never pay the ransom (either because the ruler doesn't care or doesn't have the money). At that point, you have to see whether it's worth anything to release them, kill them or hold them as hostages (even if a ruler hates his wife, he can't have legitimate children without her!).
Had a look at King Dumnarth II of Corwall: he has about 100 gold at hand, so should be able to afford the two (non-combatant) hostages I currently have (his wife and daughter).
You can ransom any character to his liege, or if they are nobles to themselves (yes, you capture the King of England, then you send to the King of England a request to ransom himself, that he will gladly pay). Of course their liege can say "Nah, keep them."
If you execute them, you just kill them and don't get any money (there are exceptions, like if you are their heir for some reason, but we are not talking about that right now).
While there are a few situations where keeping them can be useful (if I remember correctly, people will be less likely to declare war against you if you hold a family member, and if you declare war to someone you hold family members in the dungeon you will start with an advantage) generally it's better to just sell them back asap.
Yes, there are a couple of prisoners that show no ransom option. Concubine or Blot, I guess? I want to do a Blot just for the learning experience, apart from anything else. I take it there's no particular moral opprobrium for a Norse Pagan character to kill off women and children at a Blot? All good tributes to the Gods?
In general I would only keep a prisoner if I don't want them to declare war on me (usually not a concern), or if I want to control their breeding (also usually not a concern).
Prisoners are sweet. You either get money for ransom, prisoners for a blot, or concubines (preferably highborn with claims). You can afford to wait on 12+ year old female prisoners that are nobility to grow up first before you enslave them to your will, but at age 0 I'd just take the money. The Duchess as well. The other two... check who they are first. The boy is a Cerneu, the ruling dynasty of Cornwall. Probably a distant relative of the Duke that isn't worth much of anything unless he somehow gets in the succession line. The woman is some cousin's wife most likely. But she is noble by birth so it might be a bit of prestige to concubine her. Check it out, right click her, Take Concubine, and then hover over the decision to see if she will net you some minor prestige gains. You can always marry her off to some commander or council member if you tire of her crap.
Q4. The ransom value of prisoners doesn't change, unless they inherit or lose titles while they are your prisoner, so don't need to ransom them right away. You can wait and see if they have other uses. Also, sometimes you have to wait for their lieges to replenish their funds before they can afford to be ransomed.
Prisoners also provide other benefits. The higher the rank of the prisoners the more prestige you get if you sacrifice them during a Blot. Or you can get more prestige if you take a woman from a more prestigious dynasty as a concubine. Taking female prisoners with claims as concubines can also lead to children of your dynasty who inherit those claims for future expansion.
I'm more inclined to ransom non-combatants or useless enemy commanders during a war. I'll only ransom important people back before the fighting ends if I'm desperate for gold.
All non-combatants so far, so may take the dough while it is on offer.
Once again, thanks so much everyone for the advice. As usual, I will now see how much of it I can put into practice. And how many newb mistakes I make (usually wrong button clicks or actions out of sequence) doing so!
PS: Next few months just played through. Some interesting developments and new (for me) things, one of which I haven't actually seen reported as an occurrence in any of the (quite a few by now) CK2 AARs I've been reading of late . No spoiler now, but Rurik will be consulting his learned advisers whether it is actually rare or just not reported much for some reason. I now have to do screenshot preparation and writing, hopefully something out in the next few days.
I forgot about the ambition! Yes, save your prestige until you get that bonus. You do get prestige from raiding, which helps, and you also get prestige from sacrifices in blots. Regarding those, you can only sacrifice adults, but beyond that it's fair game. The victims will be randomly chosen from your adult prisoners, so if you have family members as prisoners, there's a risk they'll be selected. If they get sacrificed, you get the kinslayer trait. You do get an option to release them instead, but I believe you lose prestige at that point. Children can be saved for future blots, and if you chose to do so, best to put them under house arrest (right-click on their portrait for the option). If that makes you feel like a monster: welcome to Crusader Kings!
I forgot about the ambition! Yes, save your prestige until you get that bonus. You do get prestige from raiding, which helps, and you also get prestige from sacrifices in blots. Regarding those, you can only sacrifice adults, but beyond that it's fair game. The victims will be randomly chosen from your adult prisoners, so if you have family members as prisoners, there's a risk they'll be selected. If they get sacrificed, you get the kinslayer trait. You do get an option to release them instead, but I believe you lose prestige at that point. Children can be saved for future blots, and if you chose to do so, best to put them under house arrest (right-click on their portrait for the option). If that makes you feel like a monster: welcome to Crusader Kings!
Thanks for the info Idhrendur - and if I was squeamish in-game then I shouldn’t have chosen a Norse Pagan and called the AAR ‘Blood and Battle’! I’m afraid the prisoners shouldn’t be expecting 21st century sensibilities from King Rurik, who is a far deal harsher than me -each to their times.
Chapter 11: Finding Hálsbitr (10 April – 19 August 870)
Chapter 11: Finding Hálsbitr (10 April – 19 August 870)
April 870
The recent military folkemøte in Cornwall has prompted King Rurik to start raking in some gold for the royal prisoners he has taken. The first is the young daughter of King Dumnarth II – she should rake in a tidy sum. He is confident the Cornish King can pay, but must wait for a response.
On 15 April, the city of Bodmin falls – though the attrition during the siege has seen another 61 warriors go to Valhalla. It yields some riches (64 g and 3 s) – and more! Rurik’s piety is increased once more and behold – he is now acclaimed as a feared Viking Raider. His great military skill is further increased, his prestige will now grow even further and he will inspire great loyalty in all who share his Norse faith.
Rurik’s warriors break through Bodmin’s defences. This siege saw him proclaimed a Viking Raider.
Once the treasure is catalogued and loaded, Rurik calls his Quartermaster in.
“Halstein! Tell us how our hoard builds after the sack of this soft Cornish city,” shouts Rurik as he downs another horn of mead in celebration of the latest victory.
“King, the fleet now carries over 126 gold. But there is room for much more,” that worthy replies.
“We will fill them to the brim Halstein, mark my words.” Rurik turns to Dan, his favoured Norse commander. “Dan, let us sack this heathen Christian Bishopric of Saint German’s. How hard can that be? They can sacrifice their gold to us as we melt down their false idols and we can sacrifice their blood to the Gods!” Loud cheers greet this pious regal utterance.
A great feast is held that night, dedicated to Thor.
In Norse mythology, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is the hammer-wielding Æsir god of thunder and lightning, associated with storms, oak trees, strength, and the protection of the fortress of Asgard, as well as hallowing and fertility. The son of Odin All-Father and Jörð (the personification of Earth), he is physically the strongest of the Æsir.
While the investment of St. German’s continues, King Dumnarth sends a short but rude note along with a sack of 45 gold in ransom for his daughter Maben, who is returned unharmed.
“Hah,” laughs Rurik. “His words are defiant but, by Thor’s Hairy Arse, his knees are weak and his purse deep enough for more. Send another note to him, this time offering his wife. Tell him if he wants her back alive and unspoiled, he will send us another 10 gold, and quickly too.”
“As you order, it is done, my King,” says his young war scribe, who also records Rurik’s words for posterity, little knowing that 1,147 years later they would be uncovered in a scroll trove, translated and relayed to readers around the world.
The Cornishmen’s livers may be lily-white, but their gold is yellow enough!
A week later, more gold is received and Queen Cynehild returned – unharmed, as promised (Rurik's Norsemen are not dishonourable, unlike these soft heathen denizens of Britannia). No ransom can be gained for the other two prisoners, who will be kept for now.
May 870
The siege rolls on. Things are very quiet as spring moves towards summer. It is reputed that around this time, Rurik made a fast voyage as a traveller to the great Roman city of Constantinople, to visit his wife there. No detailed record exists of this supposed voyage, whether it actually occurred or was an invention of Rurikid storytelling to gloss over otherwise uncomfortable facts.
June 870
In early June, the strength of the besieging raiders was sapped by an outbreak of disease in their camps outside the walls of St. German's, as recorded in the battle journal on 9 June. Back in the homeland, mid-June saw the completion of the new market town in the capital. The Chancellor ordered (and continued to supervise the building work of) a first hill fort for the tribal holding. This was more directed at later development of the new fortifications they have now observed in their travels and to increase the levy size of the home country.
19 June saw reports of food and supplies being smuggled into St. German's by the Cornishmen. This boosts their morale and will extend the siege. The raiders start to wonder whether this siege is worth it, after all. But the challenge has been laid down now and they are not for turning.
July 870
The King reportedly arrives back in Cornwall in early July, according to Rurikid legend, with good news.
And by the end of the month, a similar building program to the capital is proceeding in the royal demesne province of Ladoga.
August 870
“By Odin’s Balls!” exclaims Rurik, as he wipes his axe clean of another enemy’s blood after a short, sharp battle. “Perhaps these Cornishmen are not as flaccid as I had thought!” The defenders have attempted a desperate sortie, hot on the heels of news that yet another shipment of supplies had been smuggled into besieged St. Germans, extending investment just when it looked like surrender was imminent.
“True sire, but their casualties from this sortie may sap their strength.” Dan wipes (Cornish) blood off his face as he confers with his king. “We will surely be done here soon.”
“Another day is too long, as far as I’m concerned. But we have stayed the course this far and will finish it. We will honour the steadfast defence of St. German's by butchering every defender, to the last man. It is the least we can do for them.” Such pious and zealous statements add to the strong and just reputation of this true Viking warrior king.
As it happened, six days later the defence broke. Rurik’s raiders stormed through – no mercy was shown to either defenders or the clerics of the church there. Another 42 gold and some silver are looted and sent to the ships.
The Massacre of St. German’s, 14 August 870.
One of Rurik’s warriors comes striding towards his leader, bearing a large object carefully wrapped in rich cloth. It looks like a weapon of some sort.
“My King,” he says, with some awe in his voice. “Look at what we have found within this heathen church.” He hands it to Rurik.
“Thor strengthen my arm! This is a remarkable weapon! Let us examine it more closely.” There are murmurs among some present that this axe may be cursed or of evil aspect. Others simply admire its sheer artistry. Such a weapon in the hands of the King would inspire the men to even greater heights.
Rurik must decide what to do with the weapon: was there ever any real choice? “It is a gift from the All-Father Himself! I will take it for mine own.” He brandishes the weapon above his head as his men cheer.
After examining it more closely, Rurik declares he will name the weapon Hálsbitr, or ‘Neckbiter’.
Ch11 Q1: Magic Weapons.I assume this isn’t unheard of (finding artifacts during a sack, as opposed to gaining them by quest and research), but in the AARs I’ve read, I haven’t seen any such reports. Perhaps such weapons were introduced in one of the DLCs. I think perhaps they can also be purchased from accomplished weaponsmiths in game events. Is finding one like this very unusual, or comparatively common when you raid a lot?
St. German’s is in the south-east of Cornwall on the River Tiddy. This aerial photograph shows ancient earthworks near the current town. Perhaps this was the site of the Viking sacking of the old town.
St. German’s later became the site of a Norman church, which stands to this day. In our time line anyway.
That evening, the 14th of August 870 CE, Rurik meets with his expeditionary council to decide where to move next. The long months in Cornwall have been used to scout and gather information about possible next targets. Since the last military folkmøte, some have argued for easy raiding in Ireland. A couple of scouting forays have been made – at face value, they do not look that rich or promising, though other opinions are sought. Nearby in Devon – the other part of Dumnarth’s petty kingdom, the pickings look far richer. The Raiding Council is asked for its views as to whether any of the targets below – or perhaps others – should be the next focus of the band. The ships now hold over 173 gold – but are yet well less than half full. The numbers of the force are now at 2,085, down from the 2,316 they began with.
Ch11 Q2: Raiding Options.So, following on from the last folkmøte, I had a quick look at a couple of Irish provinces, as had been suggested. But based on simple tax income figures, they don’t look that promising to be frank. Devon on the other hand is nearby and looks lucrative, while no other forces nearby (ie Saxons, for example) look to be an immediate threat. Unless the Raiding Council can convince him another alternative for the next raid would be better, Rurik is minded to visit more misery on Dumnarth’s kingdom.
Back at home in Holmgarðr, Prince-Marshal Helgi, acting on his father’s orders, has found a suitable candidate to be invited to court to be a new commander. Good military skills and a strong Norse culture are the main prerequisites. Sverker of Nöteborg is brought into the court, even at the expenditure of prestige and gold required to accept him. Eventually, a good Norse wife will have to be found for him. None seemed to be immediately available.
On 19 August, Rurik’s great martial skills – grown further now with his acclamation as ‘Viking’ and wielding of the great axe Hálsbitr were duly recorded by his scribe in his campaign journal. It appeared that his prestige also grew steadily.
Ch11 Q3: Raiding and Prestige? It’s not clear to me whether, and if so by how much, raiding aids prestige. It doesn’t seem to figure in the victory screens and I can’t tell from the prestige stat mouseover how much, if any, might have been added. Having a quick look at the wiki, I couldn’t find anything that referenced any prestige gain from raiding or sacking per se, so I assume you don’t. But anyone that knows better, please let the Raiding Council know!
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Raiding Council
Following the great final victory at St. German’s in Cornwall and the great omen of the finding of the Neckbiter, Rurik calls a council of his chief commanders – Dan and Vsemil; his Captain of the Longboats Einarr; his quartermaster Halstein and a few other close advisers and sages. Three main questions are posed and other general advice sought.
Ch11 Q1: Magic Weapons.I assume this isn’t unheard of (finding artifacts during a sack, as opposed to gaining them by quest and research), but in the AARs I’ve read, I haven’t seen any such reports. Perhaps such weapons were introduced in one of the DLCs. I think perhaps they can also be purchased from accomplished weaponsmiths in game events. Is finding one like this very unusual, or comparatively common when you raid a lot?
Ch11 Q2: Raiding Options.So, following on from the last folkmøte, I had a quick look at a couple of Irish provinces, as had been suggested. But based on simple tax income figures, they don’t look that promising to be frank. Devon on the other hand is nearby and looks lucrative, while no other forces (ie Saxons, for example) look to be a threat. Unless the Raiding Council can convince him another alternative for the next raid would be better, Rurik is minded to visit more misery on Dumnarth’s kingdom.
Ch11 Q3: Raiding and Prestige?It’s not clear to me whether, and if so by how much, raiding aids prestige. It doesn’t seem to figure in the victory screens and I can’t tell from the prestige stat mouseover how much, if any, might have been added. Having a quick look at the wiki, I couldn’t find anything that referenced any prestige gain from raiding or sacking per se, so I assume you don’t. But anyone that knows better, please let the Raiding Council know!
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Odin’s guidance is sought as Rurik and his raiders consider their next target. Here is Odin All-Father as depicted in an 18th century Icelandic manuscript.
Ch11 Q1: Magic Weapons.I assume this isn’t unheard of (finding artifacts during a sack, as opposed to gaining them by quest and research), but in the AARs I’ve read, I haven’t seen any such reports. Perhaps such weapons were introduced in one of the DLCs. I think perhaps they can also be purchased from accomplished weaponsmiths in game events. Is finding one like this very unusual, or comparatively common when you raid a lot?
Ch11 Q2: Raiding Options.So, following on from the last folkmøte, I had a quick look at a couple of Irish provinces, as had been suggested. But based on simple tax income figures, they don’t look that promising to be frank. Devon on the other hand is nearby and looks lucrative, while no other forces (ie Saxons, for example) look to be a threat. Unless the Raiding Council can convince him another alternative for the next raid would be better, Rurik is minded to visit more misery on Dumnarth’s kingdom.
Ch11 Q3: Raiding and Prestige?It’s not clear to me whether, and if so by how much, raiding aids prestige. It doesn’t seem to figure in the victory screens and I can’t tell from the prestige stat mouseover how much, if any, might have been added. Having a quick look at the wiki, I couldn’t find anything that referenced any prestige gain from raiding or sacking per se, so I assume you don’t. But anyone that knows better, please let the Raiding Council know!
Q1: Magic Weapons were added in the Monks and Mystics DLC. Unfortunately, I don't have an idea of how rare the infamous "+2 Axe" (seriously, I hope there is an event to give it a better name) is.
Q2: The advantage of Irland is that you can litterally plunder the whole island with no backlash, since it's made of one-county rulers. Of course Devon is a better plunder by itself, but it will take a long time to you to fully raid the holdings, with the risks of the enemy returning (or, if they have enemies attacking them, you risk to find yourself on the path of the enemy's army). Basically, plundering Ireland right now is the safe investment - there can be no retaliation once you land, but you take longer to gain the same - while Devon is the risky one - you get more in less time but risk retaliation.
Q3: You get prestige once you return home with your loot.
Q1: Magic Weapons were added in the Monks and Mystics DLC. Unfortunately, I don't have an idea of how rare the infamous "+2 Axe" (seriously, I hope there is an event to give it a better name) is.
Q2: The advantage of Irland is that you can litterally plunder the whole island with no backlash, since it's made of one-county rulers. Of course Devon is a better plunder by itself, but it will take a long time to you to fully raid the holdings, with the risks of the enemy returning (or, if they have enemies attacking them, you risk to find yourself on the path of the enemy's army). Basically, plundering Ireland right now is the safe investment - there can be no retaliation once you land, but you take longer to gain the same - while Devon is the risky one - you get more in less time but risk retaliation.
Q3: You get prestige once you return home with your loot.
Many thanks. Will do my usual full reply later, but re the +2 Axe: felt like I was back in an old D&D game! Agree the name is lame - and Rurik thought so too. In this case it had to have a good Norse name
Ch11 Q1: Magic Weapons.I assume this isn’t unheard of (finding artifacts during a sack, as opposed to gaining them by quest and research), but in the AARs I’ve read, I haven’t seen any such reports. Perhaps such weapons were introduced in one of the DLCs. I think perhaps they can also be purchased from accomplished weaponsmiths in game events. Is finding one like this very unusual, or comparatively common when you raid a lot?
Ch11 Q2: Raiding Options.So, following on from the last folkmøte, I had a quick look at a couple of Irish provinces, as had been suggested. But based on simple tax income figures, they don’t look that promising to be frank. Devon on the other hand is nearby and looks lucrative, while no other forces (ie Saxons, for example) look to be a threat. Unless the Raiding Council can convince him another alternative for the next raid would be better, Rurik is minded to visit more misery on Dumnarth’s kingdom.
Ch11 Q3: Raiding and Prestige?It’s not clear to me whether, and if so by how much, raiding aids prestige. It doesn’t seem to figure in the victory screens and I can’t tell from the prestige stat mouseover how much, if any, might have been added. Having a quick look at the wiki, I couldn’t find anything that referenced any prestige gain from raiding or sacking per se, so I assume you don’t. But anyone that knows better, please let the Raiding Council know!
1. I've seen the +2 axe a few times in my Norse games and in AARs, but until M&M it was a status condition for that character. With M&M, it is an actual item that can be inherited or lost. The name is a bit silly but the benefit is anything but. I approve of the name in story.
2. Ireland is divided at this time and thus weak, so weak responses to raids. Eventually, the coasts along Western Europe will harden up as defensive buildings go up. So take the easy pickings where you can find them!
3. There should be a pop-up when you return a raiding fleet to your own lands to the effect of bringing back so much gold and so much prestige. It's not a modifier, it's a straight-up gain.
Chapter 11: Finding Hálsbitr (10 April – 19 August 870)
Raiding Council
Following the great final victory at St. German’s in Cornwall and the great omen of the finding of the Neckbiter, Rurik calls a council of his chief commanders – Dan and Vsemil; his Captain of the Longboats Einarr; his quartermaster Halstein and a few other close advisers and sages. Three main questions are posed and other general advice sought.
Ch11 Q1: Magic Weapons.I assume this isn’t unheard of (finding artifacts during a sack, as opposed to gaining them by quest and research), but in the AARs I’ve read, I haven’t seen any such reports. Perhaps such weapons were introduced in one of the DLCs. I think perhaps they can also be purchased from accomplished weaponsmiths in game events. Is finding one like this very unusual, or comparatively common when you raid a lot?
Ch11 Q2: Raiding Options.So, following on from the last folkmøte, I had a quick look at a couple of Irish provinces, as had been suggested. But based on simple tax income figures, they don’t look that promising to be frank. Devon on the other hand is nearby and looks lucrative, while no other forces (ie Saxons, for example) look to be a threat. Unless the Raiding Council can convince him another alternative for the next raid would be better, Rurik is minded to visit more misery on Dumnarth’s kingdom.
Ch11 Q3: Raiding and Prestige?It’s not clear to me whether, and if so by how much, raiding aids prestige. It doesn’t seem to figure in the victory screens and I can’t tell from the prestige stat mouseover how much, if any, might have been added. Having a quick look at the wiki, I couldn’t find anything that referenced any prestige gain from raiding or sacking per se, so I assume you don’t. But anyone that knows better, please let the Raiding Council know!
Q1 - The purple axe was an event that came with The Old Gods DLC, that gave you a trait modifier. It was rolled into the Treasury system with Monks and Mystics and given an icon to go in the vault with the same modifier.
Q2 - Ireland is poorer than other areas, but easier to sack and loot for gold and prisoners with little resistance. The further south you go the richer the targets, but they are better defended. It all comes down to risk and reward. You have a pretty sizable force for the time period, I would go for richer targets now before they grow stronger. Also don't forget you can take your ships up many of the rivers to reach rich targets inland, these will become closed to you later in the game.
Q3 - The gold and prestige doesn't show up until you safely bringing your raiders back to your home territory and you show off your prizes. You'll get an event screen showing this when you reach a friendly port. You get as much prestige as the gold you collected. So if you fill your 40 ships with 400 gold, you'll get 400 prestige.
It also depends upon luck as to whether the AI can be bothered to defend against your raids or not. Half a year ago in my only pagan run (I was invading Ireland and needed cash) I raided the Abassids and Romans several times without them doing anything. Worth risking for the rewards if you can get that far. The only thing to bear in mind is that your shouldn't raid where you are planning to conquer, because it ruins the economy for a while.
Hah - thought I’d end up raiding somewhere a dear reader lived or had a connection with. My dear old mother was born and grew up in Portsmouth and went to uni in Bristol, so if I raid them I’d also be trashing family history. But, as the Rurik character, I must perforce ignore all sentiment and bring fire and axe to these soft and verdant lands. Plenty of necks to be bitten by the axe and chests to be filled with gold! But I will respect those who put up a good fight as they are despatched to wherever their heathen God takes them. Remembering here it is purely business, nothing personal.
PS: Yes, worth raiding a place named after Saint Germanicus. What honourable German would have his name associated with that strange Christian religion? They will probably rebuild it over time. The Rurikids will have to remember to raid it again in the future, as an extra punishment!
Ch11 Q1: Magic Weapons. I assume this isn’t unheard of (finding artifacts during a sack, as opposed to gaining them by quest and research), but in the AARs I’ve read, I haven’t seen any such reports. Perhaps such weapons were introduced in one of the DLCs. I think perhaps they can also be purchased from accomplished weaponsmiths in game events. Is finding one like this very unusual, or comparatively common when you raid a lot?
I see others have answered this, but I have included a screenshot of the old event, from the first time I got it.
I think that without the monks and mystics dlc, you can still give away any additional axes you may find (to a loyal vassal or something).
Ch11 Q2: Raiding Options. So, following on from the last folkmøte, I had a quick look at a couple of Irish provinces, as had been suggested. But based on simple tax income figures, they don’t look that promising to be frank. Devon on the other hand is nearby and looks lucrative, while no other forces (ie Saxons, for example) look to be a threat. Unless the Raiding Council can convince him another alternative for the next raid would be better, Rurik is minded to visit more misery on Dumnarth’s kingdom.
Take the good looting while you can. He couldn't stop you before, so i doubt he can now.
Ch11 Q3: Raiding and Prestige? It’s not clear to me whether, and if so by how much, raiding aids prestige. It doesn’t seem to figure in the victory screens and I can’t tell from the prestige stat mouseover how much, if any, might have been added. Having a quick look at the wiki, I couldn’t find anything that referenced any prestige gain from raiding or sacking per se, so I assume you don’t. But anyone that knows better, please let the Raiding Council know!
You get a little from sieges and battles, but the main part is when you return home with your gold.
On a side note, 3 martial is also a great haul from this raiding!
Don't take Slavs on raids. Take only Norse commanders - you and they will get the Viking trait, Slavs get nothing, and if you wind up in a battle while raiding, you've already lost. They'll rip you apart.
