1937 Imperial Conference - will we see it?

[Ironside121]

My apologies for the long post- and I understand that this could be in the Suggestions Forum, but I would like this to be on the main page to draw attention to something that could be very important to the game, and to ask PDX if there is any plans to implement the Conference. I will be making a much more detailed post in the Suggestions Forum anyway- yes, even more typing than this

I don't expect this to get a lot of attention if I'm being totally honest- it's a lot of reading, but it's something that interests me a lot and I'd love to see it.

I'm curious about this. The Imperial Conference is something I actually expected to see in the base game- and was disappointed when it wasn't, amongst other things.

The Imperial Conferences were a key part to managing the British Empire, held every 4 years(ish, they were quite random at times) from 1887 through 1937. The Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth met on other occasions, but this one was key for many reasons- such as:

- It was the final Imperial Conference before WW2- and afterwards the Conferences were renamed and done biyearly instead.
- Foreign Policy during this time was very important, with Italy invading Abyssinia and Facism on the rise in Europe.
- The Economic and Trading Policy of the British Empire was heavily discussed here, as the Empire was coming out of the Great Depression.
- Burmas independence was discussed. Burma did have Representation at this Conference.
- The Defense of the Empire was discussed, and rearmament.
- An Imperial Federation was brought up, but shot down pretty fast.

For context and info on these to realize the importance of these matters:

1. Foreign Policy - With many nations in Europe mobilizing their forces, Germany being the key one(Rhineland- violating Versailles), and Italy launching an Invasion of Abyssnia, and then the Spanish Civil War to top it off.. tensions were starting to build. As we all know the British went for a policy of appeasement, but I believe we should have small ways through the Conference to intervene, or begin more mobilization of the Commonwealth forces. The Prime Minister of my own country, New Zealand, Michael Savage, was opposed to appeasement. I quote:

"Is your policy peace at any price; if it is so I cannot accept it" and "You can pay too high a price even for peace"
Savage was speaking about the Italian invasion of Abyssinia and wanted Commonwealth Intervention.

We have alt history paths that are 99% unlikely(Commie Japan- upcoming USA civil war) so why not British intervention? Alt history doesn't have to be a different ideology in a nation, because that's just easy and lazy, in my opinion.

2. Economic and Trading policy- not many changes were made here IIRC, the Empire was fully devoted to recovering from the Great Depression- and I believe there could be some small events for individual nations regarding this- but I don't believe there should be much focus on the overall conference, as all Commonwealth nations had been economically recovering before this point. The Prime Minister of Canada said:

"I shall not, at this time make any special reference to the problems which are of special concern to Canada beyond stating that economic conditions are definitely improving, though we are still face with the aftermath of war and depression in the form of a difficult unemployment and relief situation".

The economy recover of the Commonwealth nations was already in full swing in regards to policies set- and so I don't believe in needs to be covered in the Conference, as any later recovery is handled quite well in the Together for Victory trees.

3. Burman independence was only briefly discussed as they were given independence in 1937- but I mention this as they are not independent in the game. I believe an event should be given specifically for them to be released as a Puppet. Even if the event is part of the Imperial Conference, just to put it in the game.

4. Defence of the Empire- this is a big one really, and where we could have more intervention rather than appeasement. There are a couple of things to cover in this section.

Firstly the British "Recognized with regret that, not withstanding the the measure of success in the limitation of armaments attained by the countries concerned in the London Treaty for the Limitation of Naval Armaments of 25th March, 1936, and in the Anglo-German Agreement of 18th June, 1935, international conditions were not at the moment favourable to further progress in the direction of disarmament". The British were well aware that disarmament was unlikely now, but still went with the path of appeasement with Chamberlain at the head(he became Prime Minister during the Conference, I might add)- should we not have the option to pursue a path of intervention considering the Empire knew that disarmament wasn't going to happen?

All Commonwealth nations defence forces were discussed, Canada presenting the progress they had made with their defence forces, India's was mentioned how they were well equipped to deal with internal strife and any North-West conflicts with tribes and such. South Africa had triple the defense expenditure than they had 4 years prior and New Zealand were mentioned in terms of co-operation with other defense forces.

Australia was mentioned very importantly, as to highlight the Importance of the Singapore Base- so we could have that included with some Singapore events perhaps - but we already do have a focus for it- it depends what PDX change. There was a decision for Australia to construct two new cruisers and two new sloops(*), alongside facilities for naval repairs and oil storage(!!!!) hint hint PDX.

"The Conference accordingly was glad to be informed that steps have been taken with these ends in view(**) and, in particular, that substantial progress has been made towards the completion of the naval base at Singapore and its defences, with the aid of the generous financial assistance received from various parts of the empire."

5. The Imperial Federation. This is probably the biggest alt-history we could put in the game, the Imperial Federation is the entire Commonwealth/British Empire uniting into one nation. I don't really need to explain it more than that.

If implemented it should be difficult to pull off, take a huge amount of PP and resources- and each Commonwealth member should give a yes or a no- many should say no as it is breaking the agreement from the previous Imperial Conferences where the British government had promised the Commonwealth nations autonomy under the Statute of Westminster. Those which say no could break free- and then be invaded should the UK decide to, and then eventually be united- as is in the British Overhaul mod(an excellent mod which I hope PDX take inspiration from).


I believe the game is really lacking international politics, and this could be a good start into feeling the situation in the world. I even want a League of Nations added- but that's unlikely- even if it would work really well with the Imperial Conference- considering the Conferences general agenda was to abide by the League of Nations foreign policies and attitudes.


* - Thanks guys, as a Kiwi I'm sure I'd feel so much safer being protected by two extra SLOOPS.
** - The statement before this was about the Empire as a whole safeguarding communications, routes and waterways essential to defense and trade and the building of naval bases and facilities for repairs and refuelling- so the statement was referencing those too.

P.S. I read 45 pages of the Summary of Proceedings, Imperial Conference, 1937 for my source on much of this, and that's where many of the quotes are from- if anyone else wishes too just look it up, I would link it but I'm unsure I'm allowed to.

 

[klopkr]

I would love to see the Imperial Federation but only if all commonwealth tags combine into one new one instead of just GB.

I really want to see Burma show up in games too. This is a great suggestion.

 

[Ironside121]

I would love to see the Imperial Federation but only if all commonwealth tags combine into one new one instead of just GB.

I really want to see Burma show up in games too. This is a great suggestion.

The Federation would most likely just be a new nation (Imperial Federation) with cores over all the Commonwealth. That's how it works in the British Overhaul mod(seriously I cannot recommend the mod enough). It's great until you start losing war support over getting bombed in Africa

There should be a big National Spirit debuff for initial inefficient management and such too- the effort would've been huge to manage all that territory centrally.

 

[Ironside121]

UPDATE:

For those interested.

With the new British Focus Tree being shown off in it's early stages, it doesn't seem there's anything to do with the Imperial Conference in, however I mentioned it to @Bratyn and he said it's an interesting idea and he'll look into it if there is the time- we were talking specifically about the Imperial Federation, which was shot down during the Conference. However if an event chain was added for the Imperial Federation then it would likely include some flavor to do with the Conference, which is good news!

I believe the Conference should have events for all Commonwealth nations, and then their choices in the conference(to choose their stance on things) would change their focus trees/ set them down a certain path.

Choosing to rearm early for example, could push the British down the Churchill tree with no appeasement, and take off all the World Tension locks for rearmament focuses for the Commonwealth(not all of them though, that might be far too imbalanced- unless negative outcomes are also implemented as National Spirits/loss of Stability and WS)

Not wanting to get anyone's hopes up, just wanting to keep those interested, updated

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

A really interesting read. Thanks for the posts and hopefully your suggestions get in in some way!

As a Canadian, there are a lot of interesting things that you could see coming out of the Imperial Conference. For instance:

Trade Policy:

- Free Trade - focus on removing tariffs and trade barriers established at the onset of the Great Depression, especially with the United States (idea advocated by the governing Liberals in Canada)
- Imperial Customs Union - focus on a "buy Empire" approach. Use the Empire as a massive market to help alleviate the depression (idea advocated by the Opposition Conservatives in Canada) . In gameplay terms, perhaps Britain sacrifices a little production efficiency/resource production loss in order to help the dominions recover from the depression faster.

(side note: Despite PM Mackenzie King's rather optimistic assessment, Canada was very much still in the Great Depression at the time. As an aside, general rearmament (world tension) and/or any war between majors should, in my opinion, quickly end the Great Depression Debuffs for the USA and Commonwealth countries due to the soar in demand for virtually all goods, rather than it sticking around while focuses are completed, although this is another topic entirely, and I digress.)


Diplomatic Approach:

- Appeasement vs Interventionism: Canadian Prime Minister Mackenzie King was rather enamored by Hitler and was very reluctant to get Canada involved in British conflicts. Even before the Statute of Westminster, he was essentially declared he would refuse to pledge Canadian support during the Chanak Crisis (where Turkish troops essentially rewrote Turkey's WWI surrender terms). He also made a point of having the Canadian Parliament debate and declare war on Germany separately from the UK (one week later). Interventionism could see reaching out to Italy to revitalize the Stresa Front, in exchange for concessions like recognition of the Italian conquest of Ethiopia and support for Italian claims in Dalmatia and Albania (and in doing so potentially alienating Eastern Europe).

Pacific Posturing: Attempt to renew ties to Japan? The Anglo-Japanese Alliance had been abandoned after a previous Imperial Conference. Canada was in favour of doing so in order to prioritize relations with the United States, while Australia wanted to keep the Alliance to maintain Pacific security. Perhaps, depending on Japan's actions with China, renewed overtures to Japan could be made. If successful, the United States would likely take longer to enter the war, but ensure the Asia-Pacific theater and its resources are secure. As well, with the alternate history paths, any strike against America should have at least the option of courting Japan to join in (in exchange for America's Pacific island possessions of course). Alternatively, should more action be taken by the Empire to fortify Pacific possessions (Hong Kong, SIngapore, etc.) and/or aid China through the Burma Road?


As with much of Canadian History, the Liberal Party was generally more in favour of distancing itself from Canada's Imperial Heritage, while the Conservative Party was generally more in favour of embracing it. Nonetheless, even many non-francophone liberals were fairly pro-empire, so Canada at least could theoretically go either way on most of these issues, as well as maybe even some grander Imperial Federation Concept.

Regardless, great suggestion with a lot of potential and hopefully some part gets implemented!

 

[Markus Marius]

@Ironside121 thank you for a well written post. I agree with pretty much everything, except, as an Aussie, build/buy your own sloops.

 

[Ironside121]

@Ironside121 thank you for a well written post. I agree with pretty much everything, except, as an Aussie, build/buy your own sloops.

Nah we'll just take yours, you've got those OP Emus, some boxing Roo's and numerous other deadly species to protect you from the Japanese

 

[Fulmen]

Doubt we'll see much or any of this. Clearly it's much more important to have a fascist/communist Britain for those one-time shits and giggles playthroughs the "silent majority" of comp stompers like to do.

 

[puppet on a string]

this is too much work for them to do now, it's a shame really because it should have been the first alt-history thing they did for the UK tree

 

[philjd]

this is too much work for them to do now, it's a shame really because it should have been the first alt-history thing they did for the UK tree

As much as I would like to see the option for a willing democratic union/federation, I suspect that Puppet has it right....

Austen or Neville may try to dust off their fathers wishes if the opportunity presents itself. Imperial Federation was on the Election agenda for the 1905 (07?) UK general election, but... the other side were offering Old Age pensions and were elected - which is a great thing, but I would have preferred both.

 

[Ironside121]

Doubt we'll see much or any of this. Clearly it's much more important to have a fascist/communist Britain for those one-time shits and giggles playthroughs the "silent majority" of comp stompers like to do.

Can't say I disagree with you, implementing the conference would only need a couple of events and would help PDX organize the AI's interactions between the trees which could make things easier on them- so my fingers are still crossed.

I'm hoping the brutal stability hits on the Facist marches make the UK the least played Alt-history nation played just to show PDX how minor they are. I've only ever enjoyed one alt-history ideology playthrough and that's admittedly the UK- but with a well thought out mod.

 

[Ironside121]

Well the Conference has been added in, along with the Imperial Federation there's screenshots in the latest dev diary- however considering how many focuses are before it, it doesn't look like it'll be done in 1937, can't be too sure though.

Any more info on what's been done to it @Bratyn?

 

[Zwirbaum]

Well the Conference has been added in, along with the Imperial Federation there's screenshots in the latest dev diary- however considering how many focuses are before it, it doesn't look like it'll be done in 1937, can't be too sure though.

Any more info on what's been done to it @Bratyn?

If there were no further changes to the focus trees between one presented in dev diary and the update shown by @Bratyn - it would be 9th focus down that path (so you would finish Imperial Conference in 630 days from the start of the game, assuming you would be going 100% down that path) - so doable in 1937.

 

[Bratyn]

Except that this would be ridiculously overpowered, so instead the conference allows you to discuss federation, after which all Dominions get a spirit reducing their daily autonomy gain. You would have to manually reduce their autonomy levels until they are integrated puppets (or puppets, pending balancing), when you can take the focus to properly integrate them, and get cores on the land of 3/4 (perhaps 5) Dominions.

It's a ludicrously powerful thing, so it should be expensive (both in time and resources) to attain.

 

[James Hale]

Except that this would be ridiculously overpowered, so instead the conference allows you to discuss federation, after which all Dominions get a spirit reducing their daily autonomy gain. You would have to manually reduce their autonomy levels until they are integrated puppets (or puppets, pending balancing), when you can take the focus to properly integrate them, and get cores on the land of 3/4 (perhaps 5) Dominions.

It's a ludicrously powerful thing, so it should be expensive (both in time and resources) to attain.

Will both the Conference and Federation have news events? That would be nice.

 

[Teleros]

There should be a big National Spirit debuff for initial inefficient management and such too- the effort would've been huge to manage all that territory centrally.

IRL no imperial federation plan would have worked if it meant giving that much political power to non-whites - IIRC, some of the earlier "Greater Britain" ideas foundered over racial issues too, especially in places like South Africa which had a large black population.

What you would see instead is the "white dominions" (Canada, Australia, New Zealand) merging with the UK. South Africa is much more iffy (maybe it'd be broken up?), whilst the Raj, African colonies and such would never be allowed in. Even if you hand-wave away all the racial issues, consider the population differences and what that'd mean for electing MPs. In effect you'd be turning a global empire run from the British Isles into one run from Delhi, and I can't see either the politicians or the voters going along with that.

Finally, there's still the issue, which AFAIK Paradox have no plans to address (@Bratyn ?), that all new regiments etc must be deployed in land connected to your capital. So no matter where your capital is placed, you've got the problem of having to ship hundreds of divisions all over the map rather than training & deploying them locally.

 

[James Hale]

Finally, there's still the issue, which AFAIK Paradox have no plans to address (@Bratyn ?), that all new regiments etc must be deployed in land connected to your capital. So no matter where your capital is placed, you've got the problem of having to ship hundreds of divisions all over the map rather than training & deploying them locally.

This could be fixed by changing it so that units can only be deployed in core states; there aren't really any countries that have overseas cores (maybe some Japanese islands, or Hawaii - which shouldn't be a core anyway) so I don't imagine it would cause any problems in terms of balance, but it would mean that a united Imperial Federation or British Empire would be able to recruit from the dominions it had just annexed.

 

[Teleros]

Yes, but it's a hard-coded issue .

 

[Fulmen]

Hawaii - which shouldn't be a core anyway

Unlike in previous HoIs, in HoI4 the only thing differentiating a core from an owned non-core is whether or not the entire population there can be utilized by the state, i.e. for manpower and build slots in-game. I'm pretty sure Hawaii in 1936 fulfilled this requirement to be considered a core state of the US.

 

[Yuni]

I am for this article: very persuasive, very reasonable. Although parts of the imperial conference of 1937 is already put in the Focus tree, there is something to need.
Something that make feeling that the United Kingdom, Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand and other Colonies are one when they are under the same Monarch. Yes, it merely and maybe a visual effect: however it will be good that some visual effects (or more) make me feeling that all under the same Monarch and we are on same boat.
For King and Country~!