You better not be including my good old friend Fabius the Delayer in those ranks.
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Nope. He was a good strategist, he knew how to not lose to Hannibal. I'm not so certain he knew how to beat Hannibal, but he preserved the Republic in its hour of need and given how dire that need was, that's pretty good.
Hell yes, we are, and your level of trolling seems to be declining disastrously these days. Rolleyes to you.Are we now rewarding people that run away from the enemy?
Attritional warfare may be less favoured by those with more blood and guts in their heads than brains, but it is an excellent recipe for some types of situations if you can keep public support going long enough (which, of course, was one of Fabius' major problems).
Oh, I think he knew perfectly well how to beat Hannibal: Blockade him up in some desolate corner of Italy unter his men runs out of supplies and patience
Of course to work there must be no serious defections...
Well, I wasn't trolling, since this is quite an interesting dilemma.
For me, a great general is one that destroys the enemy force in direct combat. Should we count in that list people that may convince other generals to surrender, people that forced the enemy in an inescapable situation or just people that had more patience than others?
Ok, Fabio was a good strategist, but was he a great general in the sense of the list? Is the strategy of not fighting worth including in the list of traits of good generals?
No, a great general is the one who defeats the enemy. If it's in combat, it's generally a bad thing (it means more of your men are dying) if you can do it by starving the enemy out, SO much better.
Not according to the list. A great general is usually the one that kills the most soldiers in fair combat. Starving an enemy takes a different kind of skill.
Fabius is a special case and deserves his own list, perhaps with that German WW I commander of Tanganika...
Sun Tzu approves
There should really be a top 100 strategists list. It would look wildly different from this one and would be just as fun, if not more so.
Keep an eye on the thread over at the new All Empires forum ( http://www.allempires.net/forum/the-top-100-generals-of-history_topic124028.html ); I can post with actual tables over there. I've got the criteria and the generals from 101 to 200 also listed over there.... I'm trying to keep track of the conversations here and over there also.
I must admit your vehemence re. Bernadotte is kind of a trigger here.
But afaik Napoléon on St Helena never dwelt on Bernadotte or any supposed treason in his talks with general Gourgaud. (He did however to Gourgeau express regret for not having had Bernadotte shot at Jena.)
Dr O'Meara otoh specifically asked about Bernadotte, and got the comment:
You've got some other source perhaps?
I must admit your vehemence re. Bernadotte is kind of a trigger here.
But afaik Napoléon on St Helena never dwelt on Bernadotte or any supposed treason in his talks with general Gourgaud. (He did however to Gourgeau express regret for not having had Bernadotte shot at Jena.)
Dr O'Meara otoh specifically asked about Bernadotte, and got the comment:
You've got some other source perhaps?
Las Casas... but I'll have to go home and verify the exact quote...
I found an English full-text translation on GoogleBooks of Las Casas memoirs and used the search function on the pdf. "Bernadotte" gave no hits. There was one for "Ponte Corvo" (and the same one for "Sweden"), but there wasn't anything juicy there, just a segment where Las Cases indicates he served for a time on Bernadotte's staff.
http://books.google.se/books?id=C5J...aBiIVc&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6
Really, I do in fact think the only time Napoléon on St Helena made any recorded remark about Bernadotte was the one made to O'Meara. But if you can show me otherwise, I'll be happy to concede the point.
I found an English full-text translation on GoogleBooks of Las Casas memoirs and used the search function on the pdf. "Bernadotte" gave no hits. There was one for "Ponte Corvo" (and the same one for "Sweden"), but there wasn't anything juicy there, just a segment where Las Cases indicates he served for a time on Bernadotte's staff.
http://books.google.se/books?id=C5J...aBiIVc&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6
Really, I do in fact think the only time Napoléon on St Helena made any recorded remark about Bernadotte was the one made to O'Meara. But if you can show me otherwise, I'll be happy to concede the point.
That link hasn't got the complete edition. In fact, it's just a small fragment of the whole book. My own edition has about 700 pages
And I managed to find an appropriate quote. Be advised that I'm translating it into English, so it may not be the best translation ever. It's a piece of conversation that goes from Gustav IIIrd to the election of Bernadotte.
August 7, 1816
[...] Bernadotte was the snake I've raised at my side; he had barely left us when he got involved into my enemies' system. We had to spy on him and fear his own behavior. Later on he became one of the active causes of our misfortunes; he was the one that provided our enemies with the key of our politics and showed them our tactics; he was the one that pointed out the direction towards the Holy Land!
He said that by accepting the Swedish throne he couldn't have been something other than a swede. Bullocks! His excuse is moronic, good only for the mob or common folk. When you marry someone, you don't give up your mother, you don't plant a sword in her heart and you don't take out her guts. [...]
I would say it's pretty clear that Bernadotte was seen as a first-rate traitor.
Most felicitously for the Swedes!That link hasn't got the complete edition. In fact, it's just a small fragment of the whole book. My own edition has about 700 pages
And I managed to find an appropriate quote. Be advised that I'm translating it into English, so it may not be the best translation ever. It's a piece of conversation that goes from Gustav IIIrd to the election of Bernadotte.
August 7, 1816
[...] Bernadotte was the snake I've raised at my side; he had barely left us when he got involved into my enemies' system. We had to spy on him and fear his own behavior. Later on he became one of the active causes of our misfortunes; he was the one that provided our enemies with the key of our politics and showed them our tactics; he was the one that pointed out the direction towards the Holy Land!
He said that by accepting the Swedish throne he couldn't have been something other than a swede. Bullocks! His excuse is moronic, good only for the mob or common folk. When you marry someone, you don't give up your mother, you don't plant a sword in her heart and you don't take out her guts. [...]
I would say it's pretty clear that Bernadotte was seen as a first-rate traitor.
Most felicitously for the Swedes!
I would be ashamed to be ruled by a Bernadotte!
Well, he turned out to be damn loyal to Sweden, so I guess no good deed goes unpunished.I would be ashamed to be ruled by a Bernadotte!
And you are being curiously emotional about all this.
"States have no friends, only interests." It was politics. Bernadotte understood that stuff better than most. So did Napoléon, even at the times he chose not to acknowledge it.
Had Bernadotte been a loyal crony of Bonaparte's, there's potentially no end to how badly Sweden might have ended up towards the end of the Napoleonic wars, wedged between the ascending Russian and British empires, with only Napoleon's tottering French empire to turn to.
Fortunately Bernadotte was no fool in political matters.
Well, he turned out to be damn loyal to Sweden, so I guess no good deed goes unpunished.
And you are being curiously emotional about all this.
"States have no friends, only interests." It was politics. Bernadotte understood that stuff better than most. So did Napoléon, even at the times he chose not to acknowledge it.
Had Bernadotte been a loyal crony of Bonaparte's, there's potentially no end to how badly Sweden might have ended up towards the end of the Napoleonic wars, wedged between the ascending Russian and British empires, with only Napoleon's tottering French empire to turn to.
Fortunately Bernadotte was no fool in political matters.
If you would have been an american, I would have mentioned the name Benedict Arnold
. That's how important traitors are for a nation. In spite of your quote, which is correct, we are dealing with people, at personal levels. Bernadotte was not a random Marshal, he had direct connections with the Bonaparte family (that's why, for example, Napoleon has only bad things to say about Murat, while admiring the deeds of other marshals, who had also betrayed him. They were not family).I resent Bernadotte because of Napoleon alone. He had the misfortune of being way too obsessed about his family. A lion on the battlefield, he became a pawn in the circle of his "loved" ones. He gave them kingdoms, principalities, titles, money... and it wasn't enough. Josephine was a bitch, Marie-Louise the same. The only decent people in that family were his son (who died as a prisoner) and Pauline.
Funny. So Bernadotte was nationalist and you hold this against him? What's up with your conservativeness, Alexandru?